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Essential Feature: EITHER EE able to connect to 1.69 servers OR 1.69 able to connect to EE servers

Hey guys, a bunch of us still playing NWN 1.69 are of the consensus that this issue is an essential one.
EE players need to be able to connect to 1.69 OR 1.69 needs to be able to connect to EE servers. This is the only way our PW can entertain EE, the workload is one thing, fracturing the existing player-base is quite another.

If you do it we will be buying EE by the truckload both for ourselves and to expand, if not, only a couple will for the novelty i guess.
One or the other please guys!
We really need an answer on this, understand if its going to be a wait as a post-ship feature, but it is our 'hard limit' so to speak.
And bless ye for this project, its a great one, we all have our fingers crossed you will do it right!

meinklangEdheltfoxRAM021typo_tilly
«134

Comments

  • harkkerharkker Member Posts: 1
    If only something could be to add spellbooks to character classes... Or all the in game character creator to check for new races

    RandomPersonDark_Ansem
  • MavrixioMavrixio Member Posts: 14
    niv said:


    purely from a developer standpoint, this is not feasible.

    - We're fixing bugs and adding features to EE that require changing the networking protocol (more/different network types that are sent to clients and are expected to be handled there). This list will only grow with the upcoming builds.
    - We've changed how login and authentication works to support the per-server player names and the new masterserver.

    This is not right.
    The protocol didn't change much, I looked at it and I was able to log on Sinfar with the NWN:EE client.

    There's a complete refusal here to let NWN:EE players enjoy the full featured 1.69 servers.

    tfoxRAM021
  • MordaedilMordaedil Member Posts: 56
    What username did you get assigned when you logged into Sinfar?

  • MavrixioMavrixio Member Posts: 14
    Mordaedil said:

    What username did you get assigned when you logged into Sinfar?

    Not sure of the question, but the username that I entered in the login popup? Mavrixio in this case.

    Edheltfox
  • MardukMarduk Member Posts: 1
  • EdhelEdhel Member Posts: 6
    No backwards support with older 1.69 servers, no buy

    Seriously, this isn't the best way of supporting the NWN community at all. At least have some backward compatibility for people who buy NWN EE that connect to older 1.69 servers. Otherwise it just reeks of greed from beamdog of trying to force everyone to upgrade to their EE and not trying to support compatibility.

    I can understand wanting new features and network protocol support, but they could have that for newer EE servers, while also maintaining support for older 1.69 servers. Otherwise you're not really helping the community, more like fracturing it.

  • highv_priesthighv_priest Member Posts: 50
    edited November 2017
    Ancarion said:

    I'm really not understanding the issue here... Why wouldn't PW players - arguably the most "hardcore" of NWN aficionados - want to upgrade to a version of the game meant to be played on more modern hardware, with more features and bugfixes? And why wouldn't PW servers want to move to 1.74 as well? What would be the benefit of sticking with 1.69?

    Because NWN:EE requires Windows 7 or higher and MANY people are old and set in their ways on using older operating systems(especially the case of windows XP). You are literally telling them they can't play the game anymore.
    It's not a case of money(they would gladly buy NWN:EE), it's a case of NWN:EE is making their actual computers outdated. It's a lot to ask of them to buy an entire new computer just to keep playing.

    If you can't fix backwards compatibility -find a way to make NWN:EE compatible with windows XP and later instead of Windows 7 and later-

  • EbonstarEbonstar Member Posts: 85

    Ancarion said:

    I'm really not understanding the issue here... Why wouldn't PW players - arguably the most "hardcore" of NWN aficionados - want to upgrade to a version of the game meant to be played on more modern hardware, with more features and bugfixes? And why wouldn't PW servers want to move to 1.74 as well? What would be the benefit of sticking with 1.69?

    Because NWN:EE requires Windows 7 or higher and MANY people are old and set in their ways on using older operating systems(especially the case of windows XP). You are literally telling them they can't play the game anymore.
    It's not a case of money(they would gladly buy NWN:EE), it's a case of NWN:EE is making their actual computers outdated. It's a lot to ask of them to buy an entire new computer just to keep playing.

    If you can't fix backwards compatibility -find a way to make NWN:EE compatible with windows XP and later instead of Windows 7 and later-
    the question should be why are you using an OS that even Microsoft has ended support for. The answer is simple, too lazy to upgrade your OS. WIn7 and later is for modern systems, and I know plenty of old and set in their ways people who still upgraded their computers in the last 15 years.

    RAM021
  • highv_priesthighv_priest Member Posts: 50
    It's not just XP, there is also Vista, which is still some players and it's not laziness to upgrade, it's that they don't want to buy a new computer. Whether it be a financial problem or because they are an older person that doesn't understand them much. Considering how that 7% is still the -third highest operating system in the world, you're assuming that number has insignificance without context-.
    Many older computers are literally incapable of running windows 7 or higher, because they were never built for that purpose. I've read about how you can modify the BIOS to make it work, but seriously... You expect these not tech savvy people to go through this?

    The real question is why would you -want- to reduce the current amount of players? It may not affect me, because I buy a gaming rig every 3 years to be able to play what I want, but that doesn't mean I want to tell my other players who have no such luxuries "Sry Brah ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ".

    So the first question is, for Beamdog, giving support for this niche game that has only ever seen attention from obscure ads and in fact was only purchased by me, because the game was advertised in my Baldur's Gate manual, why would they want to discard their veteran players?

    Perhaps the best question is, if they aren't going to actually legitimately improve the graphics in a meaningful way, who convinced them this game has any chance meeting legitimate sales when only people with computers of the last 7 years can play it? Do they not realize almost anyone who would of purchased these new computers already has somewhere between 50 to 300 games already? Almost ALL of which have better graphics than this one? Maybe 4-5 of THOSE games which they play regularly. They are literally selling the multiplayer here, either go all in or go home.


    Did we forget this game was being given for FREEEEEEEEEEEE and still managed to not obtain that many players?
    Maybe this article https://www.pcworld.com/article/3146516/software/get-neverwinter-nights-for-free-as-gogs-big-winter-sale-kicks-off.html where he actually says, " Is it a great game on its own? Not really. But the appeal of Neverwinter Nights lies in mods, of which there are a lot to pore over. Grab it, find a modding guide, and go to town."
    So was there any thought to this enhanced edition at all to maybe improve the campaign which was never described as being good, because HoTU is never played, because no one ever gets that far in the base campaign without being bored to tears. They addressed literally none of the problems which always stopped the game from growing stronger and are actually -bringing new problems into the mix-. Can we stop being contrarians for a day and maybe look at the big picture?

    They have potential fucking bank on there hands here if word can actually get out that this is an infinite universe of completely different MMO like worlds in the multiplayer. ALL OF WHICH ARE FREE TO PLAY, NO MICROTRANSACTIONS AND NO PAY2WIN, but their target demographic IS the old computer users, because those users are LOOKING for games that aren't heavy on their systems. If Beamdog wants to make money, lots of money, and help this game at the same time. They need to focus on what matters.

    Pick one, you have no choice if you want to succeed and 1 would be enough:
    1.)All in on the multiplayer

    2.)Upgrade the ugliest of the graphics, orcs come to mind here.

    3.)Fix the base campaign, people always play it first and think the whole game is like that.

    Nothing is impossible here, only some things are declared more important. Lets not forget this gem of a game has been kicked down constantly these past few years. One blow after another and these players still stuck with it.... Can we stop the endless cycle of ruthlessly stomping out any chance at life this game gets? Mav is right here, I've met types like these before, there is one vision, one plan, and there can be no deviation, but in truth they are lazy and don't want to accept maybe their vision is ass, a big ass, the kind of ass that jiggles like Jell-O.

  • EdhelEdhel Member Posts: 6
    Ancarion said:

    I'm really not understanding the issue here... Why wouldn't PW players - arguably the most "hardcore" of NWN aficionados - want to upgrade to a version of the game meant to be played on more modern hardware, with more features and bugfixes? And why wouldn't PW servers want to move to 1.74 as well? What would be the benefit of sticking with 1.69?

    Because not everyone also wants to spend the money I'm assuming. I'd buy NWN EE in a heartbeat if it supported newer features for servers running the EE, but also maintained backward compatibility on old servers that haven't updated. It can't be that difficult to have the game support older servers, and only enabling the newer features on NWN EE servers.

  • AlibertoAliberto Member Posts: 80
    Hi to all, I'm the admin of ITA Server PW that works with the 1.69 version without hak or similar.
    Sorry if I did not understand the discussion entirely (my English is a bad English), the questione is one and it's a very simple question. If we want to have new players using client 1.74, does can we use server version 1.69 it again? Yes or not?
    Because if the answer is not, I do not see how you could help the current community of nwn1.

  • FrolloFrollo Member Posts: 2
    Look guys, this is clearly about the time and /effort it would take, but what you need to realise is that many of us would pay pretty much any price tag for this feature. Im looking for a commitment to add it as DLC. Put that DLC on pre-order lads and you will see what happens!!

    The veterans of the game WILL support you if you support them, I would buy a lot of copies of this, a few for myself and fam, a few to share around. You need to tap the passion of the veterans and support their Persistent Worlds, that is what makes NWN 'The Beautiful Game'.

    TLDR: Forwards OR Backwards compatability = Profit, rise to it and find a way guys!

    RandomPerson
  • Chris_theVikingChris_theViking Member Posts: 49
    edited November 2017
    I guess i'm just not understanding this. The problem is that because of protocols(thats kinda vague) EE players will not be able to connect to 1.69 servers and 1.69 players will not be able to connect to EE servers unless they update from 1.69 to 1.74?
    for me the best solution here is to acquire the ip address of the 1.69 updater and update those versions to 1.74, and then the servers out there can just dl the 1.74 server and everyone is happy

    As a host of what was and will be a major server(Home Town is a diablo style server that ranked in the top 3 under action cue 24/7 until the master server and gamespy went offline) i can say 100% that the players in my community will have no issue with dling a patch for the 1.69 versions they use and a lot will buy the new release.

    For a smooth transition the focus should be on acquiring that ip so gog players as well as ppl reinstalling for nostalgia have a prompt to update to a version that can let them populate the server lists. once they are in and playing with the EE players they will mostly get convinced by the other players to get the EE version.
    Not because they are forced into the purchase by being restricted from access.
    it would be worth that little bit of effort.

    I am currently trying to figure out how to open our server up to the headstart or beta testers some good action. If its jsut protocals then where do i get the 1.74 update for the dedicated server or dl the server, since it's about protocols we can host the 169 and ee versions now, i even have a new harder version ready to go. we could even run a shared server vault until we felt everyone got migrated.

  • Chris_theVikingChris_theViking Member Posts: 49
    mf2112 said:

    Microsoft ended support for XP 3 and a half years ago. Companies stopped supporting it well before that time as far as drivers and even releasing games for it. At this point it appears to have less than 7% of the desktop OS share. It doesn't seem cost effective to develop for it.

    Home Town up until 2013 was a no expansion server, we didn't' want to alienate anyone. Then after we concluded that nearly zero players used a no xpack version and GoG had diamond for 5 bucks it was then okay to update. The same for this, because of social media it's very easy to get the word out that they need to update. this isn't a huge deal. As i said in a post, getting the ip for the updater and prompting people to do the update solves all.

  • AncarionAncarion Member Posts: 92
    Ok so I understand that it's not something inherent in 1.69 that makes it preferable for some pw's it's just that your players are using an old os. I think it's fine (not that my opinion matters) that you ask for any features you want. Just look at the request threads elsewhere - we're all asking for the moon... but I think you go off the rails when you start calling beamdog lazy and greedy if they can't or won't do what you want. That doesn't seem fair.

    Malclavemf2112RAM021
  • highv_priesthighv_priest Member Posts: 50
    MadHatter said:

    How about we just pay Beamdog for their work? That seems fair.

    Just because X million copies of NWN were sold or given away previously doesn’t entitle us to free labor from a new company.

    If you’re happy with 1.69 it seems perfectly rational to just... stick with 1.69.

    Your mentality is the reason why nwn2 NEVER managed to gain more players than nwn1 has. This idea that people will just "so like totally obviously switch over to be like all in yo" has never been true in nwn.

    No one here wants the game to fail, but EVERYONE is tired of seeing businesses keep making decisions that only ever harmed the game.

    http://www.nwnlist.com/# At the time of this writing nwn1(405) is almost double what nwn2(203) is and NWNList had removed the player count cheating servers a long time ago, which unfortunately means there is some -legitimate numbers not being included either-.

    I keep providing -EASY TO FIND- examples of why I'm right. Where is ANY of your examples to show you aren't wrong? Contrarians are what is destroying this world....

  • BelowTheBeltBelowTheBelt Member Posts: 9
    edited November 2017
    A key difference that I haven't seen mentioned is that with previous updates, Bioware began updating people to the newest version - effectively ending new distribution of the older version.

    In today's world, NWN 1.69 is still in active distribution by other retail sources. They are still introducing new players to that version and will continue to do so. New players will continue to purchase and play 1.69.

    This is an important distinction when considering the 'this is the same as when a previous version was released' analogy.

    This has the very real potential to split the community if there's no way to integrate these populations in multiplayer. We will have 2 separate versions of NWN in active distribution.

    IMO, If what Maxrovio says is correct (that he was able to log into his server with the EE version), then this seems feasible and should be considered an essential feature. I also get that Beamdog is working on a lot of features and fixes that don't exist in 1.69, some of which might have to be clientside in order to function correctly.

    Beamdog has engendered a lot of goodwill from the NWN community and I appreciate their efforts. I'm hoping that they review this and make a decision based on what's good for the community if it's at all technically achievable.



    RAM021
  • MavrixioMavrixio Member Posts: 14
    edited November 2017
    I patched Sinfar 1.69 server to be compatible with NWN:EE client. Only a few bits to change here and there, no thanks to the help of NWN:EE devs though... It would have been easier with their help but it was completely refused,

    I can share this patch but I dont know for how long it will be valid. I wonder if this will turn into some kind of challenge where they keep changing the protocol of the NWN:EE client and I have to figure how to adapt the 1.69 nwserver.

    I dont know why they strongly dont want 1.69 servers to remain. Servers like Sinfar are one of the main source of selling on GoG. We could be their #1 supporter and promoter but instead I have to tell my players that Beamdog dont care about us, only our money.

    Again Trent, Niv, Liareth... Please just let us make the 1.69 nwserver support for NWN:EE so we can go ahead and not backward.

    I will update Sinfar nwserver... when there will be a stable release of NWN:EE... for now, patching the NWN:EE server to have all Sinfar 1.69 server features (500+ hooks and related features) is not an option. I will do instead all I can do to be compatible with their NWN:EE client.

    Post edited by Mavrixio on
    tfoxEdhelGorgon
  • Chris_theVikingChris_theViking Member Posts: 49
    niv said:

    Hello Frollo,

    purely from a developer standpoint, this is not feasible.

    - We're fixing bugs and adding features to EE that require changing the networking protocol (more/different network types that are sent to clients and are expected to be handled there). This list will only grow with the upcoming builds.
    - We've changed how login and authentication works to support the per-server player names and the new masterserver.

    All other arguments aside (like business decisions), maintaining backwards compatibility would mean to backport upcoming features (that I can't speak to yet) to 1.69 by reimplementing them out in nwnx; or at least shimming them to a point where they go from "crash" to "nonfunctional". That's not something any of us are willing to do.

    This was pretty much the same on all BioWare-sourced patches in the past too. Right?

    However, we're certainly willing to accomodate servers that want to migrate! If you have any other ideas besides that, or maybe a list of requirements that goes beyond the stated need for cross-play, please post them and I'll look at them personally.

    PS: Seems like this was in the wrong forum category, moving.

    the way that I would restate this in a less kind way"yer asking us to re-release the game with no meaningful updating currently or in the future?"

  • SarmanosSarmanos Member Posts: 16
    So what happens to your idea if say Beamdog adds some real content like say free NPC models or even reaches the point of putting in a new expansion? Have a plan to handle the compatibility then? You'll just be Frankensteining your servers and stapling more and more on to force compatibility all for the sake of saving people in your own corner of the community some time and money.

    It might be easy for you right now with where the EE client is at currently (which isn't finished yet by the way), but you're just creating a problem of your own making down the line.

    RandomPersonRAM021
  • MavrixioMavrixio Member Posts: 14
    edited November 2017
    Sarmanos said:

    So what happens to your idea if say Beamdog adds some real content like say free NPC models or even reaches the point of putting in a new expansion? Have a plan to handle the compatibility then? You'll just be Frankensteining your servers and stapling more and more on to force compatibility all for the sake of saving people in your own corner of the community some time and money.

    It might be easy for you right now with where the EE client is at currently (which isn't finished yet by the way), but you're just creating a problem of your own making down the line.

    One of they key features of the game is to require a minimum amount of bandwidth when playing in multiplayer, there's nothing "big" sent from the server to the client, all the models/visual contents is client side, the server send the minimum amount of data to the client.

    So if they add for example 4 bytes to the protocol to enable scaling, well I will just insert those 4 bytes. Actually Sinfar already has this implemented with the 1.69 client. If the server suddenly has to send a load more of data, it would be because the devs done something wrong.

    Updating the server to send a few more bytes here and there to tell the client "this is the model ID to display" is peanuts, its nothing compare to having to keep all features currently implemented in Sinfar 1.69 nwserver up to date with each up coming update of the new nwserver.

  • highv_priesthighv_priest Member Posts: 50
    Did we all forget that it's very easy to have the client broadcast it's version to the nwserver? Shadoow has already done this and considering how he's on their advisory board I can say their full of it.

    It would be very easy for them to have each new addition do a single 1 line of code version check or bypass to null. That's if the things they added actually did anything to the clients in the first place! NWNX has already proven tremendous volumes of things can be done utilizing the server executable alone without involvement by the client. The problem is this is something that should be done early. Starting on this early prevents this becoming a time sink later on when you have to go back through and individually bypass every single little thing without the source code.

    I run a private server for a game called Lunia as well and the devs in that game used to make all sorts of excuses of why something can't be done. Then a Brazilian stole their source code and sold it to everyone and it was found out that it could of always been done(in some cases a few minutes).... I have zero doubt the same applies here.

  • AlibertoAliberto Member Posts: 80
    Okay, I think I understand right now. We will simply continue to play 1.69, find players for 1.69 and buy it!
    As soon as you realize what the real nwn1 community is ..... let us know :-)

    my 2 cent, Ali

    Administrator of "Nordock Martial Age"

  • NelaKNelaK Member Posts: 7
    edited November 2017
    For all the people wondering why 1.69 might still be preferable to 1.7x even if we disregard the cost:

    It has nothing to do with not wanting to upgrade Windows or our computers. Nwn has been around for a long time and a lot of the functionality that nwnee is promising has already been implemented in 1.69 and in fact far far more then that.

    Being familiar with Sinfar's modifications for example - nwnee would be a significant downgrade. It would be hard to understate how much functionality would be lost. When Mavrixio mentions "500+ functions" that is sort of understating it. A single example would be being able to retexture, colour, scale, rotate or position placeables, vfx, and body model parts on the fly in game. This completely changes how areas are built - need a placeable? Simply modify an existing one on the fly. Want to customize your character appearance? Build it entirely from scratch by picking out the hairstyle, facial hair, ears, eyes, hats, etc. I've seen worse customization options in modern games.

    Of course long term it would be great to have a best of both worlds but considering the scope of things that would have to be adapted to nwnee that is a long ways off and some sort of interim solution could go a long way.

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