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#MeToo

TStaelTStael Member Posts: 861
For those going "uggh" shame on you. Even if this does not affect you, perso - bit of empathy is OK. Someone you have known shall have suffered it.


As to me, too:


- The husband of my eldest, religiously fanatic aunt was a creep: when I had climbed atop a substantial chest brought out to my grandma's yard for disposal, he shook it to make me fall off - when he knew I did not like it.

Additionally, he insisted on me explaining what "pikkutuhma" meant - I did precociously know, but it did not mean I wanted to explain it.


- Age 7 or 8, me and my best friend stopped by a parked car because the man at the wheel "wanted to know directions." He opened the door and was masturbating.

My diary read: "Oh my, how we ran! My friend (name here) remained thou to say she could not stay to tell."


- Coming to high-school, I had a "relationship" with an older family friend I perso find so wrong now. Being used by someone more experienced makes you feel very icky even if it was a matter of being delighted for having the attention then. He should like to remain in contact, I've distanced myself. He went for a high-school class-mate, I learned, so it might be assumed a pattern of behaviour.

I really wanted a friend whom wanted me whom was not ready for it, and I stopped. I still want him after all these years, but I know I did right. That man, in the same context, did not.


- I was labelled as "undersexed" in the yearbook of my purportedly elite high-school yearbook


- In Paris, I had lost my wallet and was offered a lift home after walking to "Nation" as opposed to "Reilly" from the center already. The guy assumed it was in exchange for sex, and shadowed me to my building where I did not dare to put on the light, lest he knew in which apartment I lived.

For the record: I was scared quite soon after I entered his car, and regretted for trusting people to be normal.

But also: I stopped just today to ask if a person with stranded car needed help - and my assumption was not it was a licence to rape her.



I am forty as of now, and the last incident was when I was twenty-four.
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Comments

  • TStaelTStael Member Posts: 861
    BTW: The last incident I wrote out, lest it became a very long OP.

    It meant to say: imagine what followed, not that - yuuhuu, at forty, it no longer happens.


    But let's admit it: only those going "uggh" imagine it ever was about "youthful sex appeal."

    And men: do know I am not one to invalidate it when it happens to you. That man I so wanted would have never held it against me, except deep down - but that was never a reason. I know it feels like sheit.
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,790
    Normally I would say something regarding examples you mentioned and I would show some emphaty. Unfortunately, you decided to shame people and make assumptions in your first paragraph. That's not encouragement to engage in discussion with you.
  • TStaelTStael Member Posts: 861
    O_Bruce said:

    Normally I would say something regarding examples you mentioned and I would show some emphaty. Unfortunately, you decided to shame people and make assumptions in your first paragraph. That's not encouragement to engage in discussion with you.

    O_Bruce dear - I am quite happy not to have your empathy, and I hope you are quite young, as to have greater change to evolve.

    But not unto what you imply as "empathy" above. The scandi-mytho trolls have it better than that.


    Let's check:

    - The creepy married-in law and family friend: CREEPY for sexual gratification, and not identifiable, unless you intend to dox me - and haunt THEM as oppsed to ME.

    Not going to happen, right? Either way. But if it did happen, you'd love it to be me, rather than them, right?

    That's unkind and sad, really.


    - The unnamed - I don't really name them, because I cannot - but what they did was wrong.



  • TStaelTStael Member Posts: 861
    edited December 2017


    I personally have never been harassed or attacked, but as a man, I appreciate the nod. Thank you.

    And thank u, semiticgod, for replying, and I am glad for u. It is as it should be, for you and everyone. But I do fear that if you ask the women whom trust you, they will tell you a variety of the OP. Your male pals too, of course.

    The man whom I wanted, but did not do - because I respected his person above my impulses - he is super charming, but when I insisted about differences between our experiences, he said he never feared he'd be raped. I have feared it, and most of my female friends too.

    Men are used and raped, and must not be, but very rarely do men fear of rape on as casual bases as women I think,


    This is the difference you could want to ask. And obviously expect not to be used. :smile:
  • Yulaw9460Yulaw9460 Member Posts: 634
    Being a man, I can't say I have an awful lot of #MeToo-material on hand, but drunken women have from time to time grabbed my ass, when I've been out on the town.

    That usually stops abruptly, when I grab them right back. I have no particular inhibitions engaging in such an exchange, if a woman initiates it. In my experience though, they usually find it offensive, when men reciprocate evenly like that. Ah well. So much for gender equality, right?

    *shitstorm commencing in 3... 2... 1...*
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,985
    I did have a male coworker, to whom I did not report but outranked me, who kept hitting on me and was very inappropriate in word and deed — yes, I’m a guy, I was dating my now-wife at the time. My supevisor was and is a pretty cool guy but pretty religious; he got really uncomfortable just hearing it. I finally had to go to HR. At the time i was up for a promotion and I wonder if that may have played a deciding role in me not getting the job. I had no objection to the guy who got it, but still. I sensed things stalled for me there, and through no fault of my own. So even without invoking my sense of right and wrong, or considering what my mom would have said and done if I’d harassed anyone, I can sympathize and empathize.
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,371
    tbone1 said:

    I did have a male coworker, to whom I did not report but outranked me, who kept hitting on me and was very inappropriate in word and deed — yes, I’m a guy, I was dating my now-wife at the time. My supevisor was and is a pretty cool guy but pretty religious; he got really uncomfortable just hearing it. I finally had to go to HR. At the time i was up for a promotion and I wonder if that may have played a deciding role in me not getting the job. I had no objection to the guy who got it, but still. I sensed things stalled for me there, and through no fault of my own. So even without invoking my sense of right and wrong, or considering what my mom would have said and done if I’d harassed anyone, I can sympathize and empathize.

    Unfortunately, from my experience HR only exists to make problems go away. They don't care HOW they go away, just that they go away.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited December 2017
    I had one incident in college where I girl I was dating (kind-of, it's hard to remember) left my room after a make-out session in bed that did not lead to sex, though it was certainly clear I was trying to nudge it that way. I was shocked the next day when her friends had asked me what had happened because she was upset. And I was a little freaked out she would have thought anything improper went on. I made it a point to talk to this girl personally to find out why she was upset (even though she didn't want to initially). I honestly for the life of me can't remember why or what she said, but after about 20 minutes of conversation, it was clear it was all a big misunderstanding on both of our parts and if my memory serves me correctly we dated (as much as people in a dorm can "date") for a month or two afterwards (at least til Christmas break I guess). I'm not sure what would have happened if I wouldn't have sought out that dialogue. I actually haven't thought about that incident in years. Point being, it's useful to let a woman tell you what she was feeling, and respond with understanding and empathy.

    On the flip-side, at the same dorm, someone I had gone to parties with (wasn't a friend, just someone I knew) DID rape a girl I literally sat next to in Anthropology class. He went to jail for (I think) 9 years, and she either transferred or quit. Looking back as I type this, that whole building seems like a minefield of bad situations.
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,371

    I had one incident in college where I girl I was dating (kind-of, it's hard to remember) left my room after a make-out session in bed that did not lead to sex, though it was certainly clear I was trying to nudge it that way. I was shocked the next day when her friends had asked me what had happened because she was upset. And I was a little freaked out she would have thought anything improper went on. I made it a point to talk to this girl personally to find out why she was upset (even though she didn't want to initially). I honestly for the life of me can't remember why or what she said, but after about 20 minutes of conversation, it was clear it was all a big misunderstanding on both of our parts and if my memory serves me correctly we dated (as much as people in a dorm can "date" for a month or two afterwards (at least til Christmas break I guess). I'm not sure what would have happened if I wouldn't have sought out that dialogue. I actually haven't thought about that incident in years. Point being, it's useful to let a woman tell you what she was feeling, and respond with understanding and empathy.

    On the flip-side, at the same dorm, someone I had gone to parties with (wasn't a friend, just someone I knew) DID rape a girl I literally sat next to in Anthropology class. He went to jail for (I think) 9 years, and she either transferred or quit. Looking back as I type this, that whole building seems like a minefield of bad situations.

    Youth and hormones are a toxic combination. The differences between how men and women think certainly contribute to the confusion. I'm not sure criminilazing things makes it better. The male sort of has to be the initiator (usually anyway) and that's where the pitfalls lie. I've heard many stories of guys pursuing women that weren't interested at first but it ended in happy marriages. Nowadays those men would be potentially labeled as 'stalkers'. No easy solution imho...
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited December 2017
    Balrog99 said:

    I had one incident in college where I girl I was dating (kind-of, it's hard to remember) left my room after a make-out session in bed that did not lead to sex, though it was certainly clear I was trying to nudge it that way. I was shocked the next day when her friends had asked me what had happened because she was upset. And I was a little freaked out she would have thought anything improper went on. I made it a point to talk to this girl personally to find out why she was upset (even though she didn't want to initially). I honestly for the life of me can't remember why or what she said, but after about 20 minutes of conversation, it was clear it was all a big misunderstanding on both of our parts and if my memory serves me correctly we dated (as much as people in a dorm can "date" for a month or two afterwards (at least til Christmas break I guess). I'm not sure what would have happened if I wouldn't have sought out that dialogue. I actually haven't thought about that incident in years. Point being, it's useful to let a woman tell you what she was feeling, and respond with understanding and empathy.

    On the flip-side, at the same dorm, someone I had gone to parties with (wasn't a friend, just someone I knew) DID rape a girl I literally sat next to in Anthropology class. He went to jail for (I think) 9 years, and she either transferred or quit. Looking back as I type this, that whole building seems like a minefield of bad situations.

    Youth and hormones are a toxic combination. The differences between how men and women think certainly contribute to the confusion. I'm not sure criminilazing things makes it better. The male sort of has to be the initiator (usually anyway) and that's where the pitfalls lie. I've heard many stories of guys pursuing women that weren't interested at first but it ended in happy marriages. Nowadays those men would be potentially labeled as 'stalkers'. No easy solution imho...
    Usually the case, yes. Then again, this brings up another memory where I remember taking a girl I had never met before back to my friend's lake cabin for the night and, I swear to god, to this day, I never said one word to her before we got there. As far as I remember, I was sitting at the bar, and then I was sitting at the bar with a hand on my thigh. But yes, it is GENERALLY the way it goes, more often than not.
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,371

    Youth and hormones doesn't make anyone rape.

    Also, "men having to be the initiator" is a social thing, not in any way biological.

    I agree about the rape thing of course but what about the pursuit. I'm not kidding about the stories about men who wouldn't give up and things worked out marvelously. How do you explain that?
  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,108
    Balrog99 said:

    Youth and hormones doesn't make anyone rape.

    Also, "men having to be the initiator" is a social thing, not in any way biological.

    I agree about the rape thing of course but what about the pursuit. I'm not kidding about the stories about men who wouldn't give up and things worked out marvelously. How do you explain that?
    I didn't say anything about the pursuit, other than saying that men don't have to be the ones to initiate.

    I would say that people are sometimes quick to assume that certain actions would be interpreted as harassment or stalking and that maybe things aren't quite as restrictive as all that.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    Balrog99 said:

    Youth and hormones doesn't make anyone rape.

    Also, "men having to be the initiator" is a social thing, not in any way biological.

    I agree about the rape thing of course but what about the pursuit. I'm not kidding about the stories about men who wouldn't give up and things worked out marvelously. How do you explain that?
    I can attest to this almost obsessive mentality with one particular girl, but it really had nothing to do with sex and everything to do with wanting a relationship beyond sex, and it literally took me two years of effort that did finally end in a long relationship that I am still sometimes sad ended. Honestly, I exerted so much of myself in getting there I was never secure in the relationship, always figuring she would find an excuse to run away again. I wasn't a stalker, but I absolutely sent texts maybe once a week, or once a month that would sometimes go unanswered, in the hope that things would one day rekindle. It was probably the second most draining psychological process of my life. Eventually when we did end up together, it was because she said no one had ever fought for her like I did. But honestly, this one still stings a little. Love is a bitch.
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,371
    Ditto, and it didn't work out for me either. I ended up in another relationship that ended badly in a divorce. I have a beautiful daughter that I would die for though so it had a bittersweet ending. I actually can mathematically understand how negative x negative = positive now!
  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,108
    edited December 2017
    To clarify, I meant people who say "You can't do X anymore because it would be seen as harassment," not people who are talking about having been harassed when I said "I would say that people are sometimes quick to assume..."
  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,108
    Also #metoo although I don't like to go into details about those experiences.
  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,108
    I appreciate it.
  • TStaelTStael Member Posts: 861
    Yulaw9460 said:

    Being a man, I can't say I have an awful lot of #MeToo-material on hand, but drunken women have from time to time grabbed my ass, when I've been out on the town.

    That usually stops abruptly, when I grab them right back. I have no particular inhibitions engaging in such an exchange, if a woman initiates it. In my experience though, they usually find it offensive, when men reciprocate evenly like that. Ah well. So much for gender equality, right?

    *shitstorm commencing in 3... 2... 1...*

    No, no sheitstorm from me.

    I am rather shy so I rarely make a move, but when I do, it does not involve ass grabbing as a first move, and if I am signalled there is no interest, I back off.

    OK with this, Yulaw?


    I think men suffer from the gender-norm that their sexuality is not supposed to be fragile, or particularly emotive, and they are flattered and up for it any time. It is obviously not true.

    Women and men whom care about people know this.


    But also: the casual fear of rape is probably quite rare for most men in non-precarious station of life. It is not so for women.


    I also believe it is very mundane indeed to tell if someone fears, loathes or rejects you. For both men and women whom do not suffer from a social disability.
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,985
    @TStael I had difficulty clicking 'like' on your post -- it seems wrong, somehow -- but yes, I know what you are saying.
  • TStaelTStael Member Posts: 861

    Youth and hormones doesn't make anyone rape.

    Also, "men having to be the initiator" is a social thing, not in any way biological.

    I so agree with you, BelleSorciere!

    We are born to be empathetic as humans as babies - (Tomansello et al "Why We Cooperate" for interesting reading) - but socialised to social cohesion as we grow.

    I have received and made successful and unsuccessful romantic initiations. But never went through with anything that was not wanted.


    I could have gotten away with riding the desire of a person whom also was socialised to be a "man" - whom was wrong to fear for our friendship, but did - so I respected it. On a few occasions - not just once.

    As said before, I have made and received initiations - of varying elegance of execution and mutual interest - but absolutely NEVER has it been unclear what is mutually wanted and what is unwanted.


    If in doubt, back off - if it is for real, you can revisit it.

    That next level is to see beyond the desire that can be just for the moment, or due to difference of life experience. I did not receive it always, sadly, but heck - I've given it. And this does not make me feel too bad about myself. I think it is just one of those right things to do.
  • TStaelTStael Member Posts: 861
    tbone1 said:

    @TStael I had difficulty clicking 'like' on your post -- it seems wrong, somehow -- but yes, I know what you are saying.

    Yet I had no difficulty clicking "insightful" on yours because I know it happens - I wish you could feel the same quite as fluidly, because then we could move on more quickly to rally around what to do about it.

    Do you see what I mean, without that "ughh"?


    I am happy I have been to places, walked to places, known that I am entitled to, say, ride metro in Paris, or anywhere else, and to stop to help a stranded person or be helped in that situation - without fault or favour.

    It should be so.


    It has not always been so, and will also not be. And it just vexes me beyond description that this is seemingly OK as a really quite the normal experience for many a person.


    I am not intimidated away from anything - as of now; but mind you, I have not been raped, which I realistically know might have been. But the times I have feared it - just broken, like The Elder Eye, or BG2 Beholder lairs.
  • TStaelTStael Member Posts: 861
    Balrog99 said:

    Due to recent divorce I'm more afraid of acceptance than rejection...

    I am sorry you should have posted such a comment to a thread that concerns probably almost every woman that you know. Maybe yourself?

    Something biting u, Balrog? :smile:


    If you know the difference between acceptance and rejection, u need not be afraid. Embrace the former - at will; respect the latter - always.


    Quite simple, eh? I've never perso been at a loss.
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,371
    Acceptance is momentary and subject to change. Things people think they can accept aren't always so. Perhaps I'll heal in time. Perhaps not. I was alone for a long time before I finally married...
  • TStaelTStael Member Posts: 861
    Balrog99 said:

    Acceptance is momentary and subject to change. Things people think they can accept aren't always so. Perhaps I'll heal in time. Perhaps not. I was alone for a long time before I finally married...

    I hope you will heal - but I actually do not think your eventual shifting sands are that important - because I think we all wonder about what should or could or might be in our minds, always wistful.

    You can accept anything upon yourself, I think - except I would not wish you might encourage other persons to think it is OK to treat others ambivalently.

    I think: acceptance or rejection by others is always to be respected, even in you wish to change it.


    Do you understand why I do not quite like your post to this tread?

    I do wish you to be well, but really: both me and my excellent friend were pursued to our flats, separately so and at different eras, so that we did not dare to put our lights on! The very idea of ebbing "acceptance" is just... wrong.
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,371
    TStael said:

    Balrog99 said:

    Acceptance is momentary and subject to change. Things people think they can accept aren't always so. Perhaps I'll heal in time. Perhaps not. I was alone for a long time before I finally married...

    I hope you will heal - but I actually do not think your eventual shifting sands are that important - because I think we all wonder about what should or could or might be in our minds, always wistful.

    You can accept anything upon yourself, I think - except I would not wish you might encourage other persons to think it is OK to treat others ambivalently.

    I think: acceptance or rejection by others is always to be respected, even in you wish to change it.


    Do you understand why I do not quite like your post to this tread?

    I do wish you to be well, but really: both me and my excellent friend were pursued to our flats, separately so and at different eras, so that we did not dare to put our lights on! The very idea of ebbing "acceptance" is just... wrong.
    I did not mean in any way to diminish your feelings. If I did so I apologize. I was just trying to convey that men aren't unfeeling. I think I inadvertently made it too much about me...
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