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The Add the ability to have a fourth class card discussion

JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,714
Greatings, NWN:EE enthusiasts!

Please, provide more details and feedback for

https://trello.com/c/qoi6QZTO/32-add-the-ability-to-have-a-fourth-class

in this thread.
RAM021
«13456

Comments

  • BalanorBalanor Member Posts: 176
    I personally would rather have Beamdog focus their efforts elsewhere. NWN1 is not NWN2 any more than it is the BG series. And if things like party control are not being added on that premise, to me 3 classes per PC is one of the NWN hallmarks that differentiate it from other games. Finally, I feel the three class combination in NWN which gives dozens upon dozens of possible combinations ensures more than enough variety for anyone (re)playing any module in NWN.
    ArtonaGM_ODADonaghue
  • SymphonySymphony Member, Developer Posts: 142
    It seems like there's a lot of different opinions about this suggestion, there are multiple paths to go down. Some people insist that the game stay at three classes, other people want prestige classes not to count towards the three class limit. Some people want no limits, and some people are happy with a fourth class.

    It is also worth discussing that class eligibility is often determined by 2da tables, and worth noting that there are stock and customizable Experience Point penalties for classes that are not considered favored classes for a selected PC race.
  • IndiraLightfootIndiraLightfoot Member Posts: 29
    I reckon this is an option for NWN:EE much farther down the road.
    ProlericFlashburnthirdmouse
  • ShadowMShadowM Member Posts: 573
    I with the others who think three is fine and there are plenty more important other things we need/want.
    EchoDMOzzynl
  • VerilazicVerilazic Member Posts: 20
    I agree that this should be a lower priority. There are better ways to improve character customizability, for example making it easier to create custom classes. That said, if/when implemented, simply adding a 4th slot should be enough.
  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 909
    More classes is the better option. Not just for extended multiclassing but also for advancement by HD for potential monster races, which would take up two slots for their class with only one more for prestige or multiclass.

    It's better to make it a module properties option on the module that defaults to 3 but can be changed to any positive number if the mod builder has something unique in mind.
    LathspellguestProont
  • KevinCurtisKevinCurtis Member Posts: 1
    If this is an easy adjustment then by all means put it in, but I agree if this would take significant resources we need more class modding options first.
  • NeverwinterWightsNeverwinterWights Member Posts: 339
    I'm not against the idea. There've been times where I had a great idea for a multiclass build only to remember that it would require a 4th class. If it something pretty easy to implement, why not? And a simple setting for maximum classes in a mod or PW would be nice. Not a big priority or deal breaker for me though.
    Proont
  • Drewbert_ahoyDrewbert_ahoy Member Posts: 96
    3 is fine for many reasons. Not the least of which is 3e rules and the front loading of abilities, which was changed in 3.5 in many cases, but I doubt they would go through the hassle of converting everything to 3.5. Time/resources are better spent elsewhere.
    GM_ODA
  • theboytheboy Member Posts: 2
    There should not be the ability to have a fourth class! After playing the game for over a decade, you get to acquire a skill for building characters and trying out multi-classing. For martial classes, multi-classing can be considered as the most optimal thing, doing things like skill-dumping (taking one level of rogue and putting all your skillpoints into tumble for higher ac) are tricks you can learn to make some unique and powerful characters. There's already hundreds of character build combinations you can create, and the players have gotten used to the fact that you can't have more than three.

    If you were able to multiclass four characters, your character would be so general and across the board that it'd be hard to define what you actually were. It'd make going into a class not so much of a commitment, and people would likely just do 1 level of the fourth class to get skills or saves or something. Adding a fourth class would also change the meta for those into powerbuilding, some characters would become sub-optimal. There's no real reason for a fourth class, you can already create whatever kind of combat style you want with the three.
    DJKajuruGM_ODA
  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,108
    theboy said:


    If you were able to multiclass four characters, your character would be so general and across the board that it'd be hard to define what you actually were. It'd make going into a class not so much of a commitment, and people would likely just do 1 level of the fourth class to get skills or saves or something. Adding a fourth class would also change the meta for those into powerbuilding, some characters would become sub-optimal. There's no real reason for a fourth class, you can already create whatever kind of combat style you want with the three.

    Is this what happened in NWN2? I don't recall that being the case.
    Thorsson
  • voidofopinionvoidofopinion Member, Moderator Posts: 1,248
    edited December 2017

    theboy said:


    If you were able to multiclass four characters, your character would be so general and across the board that it'd be hard to define what you actually were. It'd make going into a class not so much of a commitment, and people would likely just do 1 level of the fourth class to get skills or saves or something. Adding a fourth class would also change the meta for those into powerbuilding, some characters would become sub-optimal. There's no real reason for a fourth class, you can already create whatever kind of combat style you want with the three.

    Is this what happened in NWN2? I don't recall that being the case.
    Not even slightly the same game.

    Due to NWN1 being its own ruleset what is open to exploit in one is not automatically exploitable in the other and vice versa.

    A 4th class would radically alter the balance and gameplay in NWN1.

  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,108
    edited December 2017

    theboy said:


    If you were able to multiclass four characters, your character would be so general and across the board that it'd be hard to define what you actually were. It'd make going into a class not so much of a commitment, and people would likely just do 1 level of the fourth class to get skills or saves or something. Adding a fourth class would also change the meta for those into powerbuilding, some characters would become sub-optimal. There's no real reason for a fourth class, you can already create whatever kind of combat style you want with the three.

    Is this what happened in NWN2? I don't recall that being the case.
    Not even slightly the same game.

    Due to NWN1 being its own ruleset what is open to exploit in one is not automatically exploitable in the other and vice versa.

    A 4th class would radically alter the balance and gameplay in NWN1.

    Oh come on. Neverwinter Nights is D&D 3.0. NWN 2 is 3.5. They both have a lot more in common than they do differences when it comes to game mechanics. The major difference is that NWN has a 40 level limit and NWN2 has a 30 level limit.

    Also, I didn't ask if NWN2 would have identical exploits. I asked if people did that in NWN2. I'm going to take from your answer that "No, people didn't do that in NWN2." Which leads me to wonder why they'd be more likely to do it in NWN.
    RAM021clansunstarProontThorsson
  • MordaedilMordaedil Member Posts: 56
    There's no real issue with adding a 4th class to already having 3 classes. If you wanted to avoid abuse cases, you'd need to limit it to 2 classes and then you aren't really playing 3rd edition D&D anymore. Besides, multiclassing is nearly only a martial class beneficial thing, as casters lose too much multiclassing, delaying it until they are near the peak of their power, such as in the case of a sorcerer multiclassing into paladin and monk for divine grace and evasion.

    And given that is the top tier OPness of that kind of build, there's really nothing to add on top of that. No other class gives anything near as much benefit. Unless Divine Grace stacks with the blackguard equivalent.

    But if you frankly see this as a problem, you can always write scripts that prevent it.
    RAM021Proont
  • voidofopinionvoidofopinion Member, Moderator Posts: 1,248
    edited December 2017

    theboy said:


    If you were able to multiclass four characters, your character would be so general and across the board that it'd be hard to define what you actually were. It'd make going into a class not so much of a commitment, and people would likely just do 1 level of the fourth class to get skills or saves or something. Adding a fourth class would also change the meta for those into powerbuilding, some characters would become sub-optimal. There's no real reason for a fourth class, you can already create whatever kind of combat style you want with the three.

    Is this what happened in NWN2? I don't recall that being the case.
    Not even slightly the same game.

    Due to NWN1 being its own ruleset what is open to exploit in one is not automatically exploitable in the other and vice versa.

    A 4th class would radically alter the balance and gameplay in NWN1.

    Oh come on. Neverwinter Nights is D&D 3.0. NWN 2 is 3.5. They both have a lot more in common than they do differences when it comes to game mechanics. The major difference is that NWN has a 40 level limit and NWN2 has a 30 level limit.

    Also, I didn't ask if NWN2 would have identical exploits. I asked if people did that in NWN2. I'm going to take from your answer that "No, people didn't do that in NWN2." Which leads me to wonder why they'd be more likely to do it in NWN.
    All I said was that it would change the balance and gameplay of NWN.

    I did not say this was a bad thing, nor did I say this was a good thing. Only that it is a significant change to the gameplay of NWN and that you cannot judge NWN1 based on what was done in NWN2.

    Your condescension is not necessary and only serves to distract from the opinion you are attempting to share.

    Kindest regards,

    - Jamie
  • Avenger_teambgAvenger_teambg Member, Developer Posts: 5,862
    Seems like NWN needs a GetLevelSum(oPC) command. (Of course, module based limit with default 3 as well).
  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,108
    edited December 2017

    theboy said:


    If you were able to multiclass four characters, your character would be so general and across the board that it'd be hard to define what you actually were. It'd make going into a class not so much of a commitment, and people would likely just do 1 level of the fourth class to get skills or saves or something. Adding a fourth class would also change the meta for those into powerbuilding, some characters would become sub-optimal. There's no real reason for a fourth class, you can already create whatever kind of combat style you want with the three.

    Is this what happened in NWN2? I don't recall that being the case.
    Not even slightly the same game.

    Due to NWN1 being its own ruleset what is open to exploit in one is not automatically exploitable in the other and vice versa.

    A 4th class would radically alter the balance and gameplay in NWN1.

    Oh come on. Neverwinter Nights is D&D 3.0. NWN 2 is 3.5. They both have a lot more in common than they do differences when it comes to game mechanics. The major difference is that NWN has a 40 level limit and NWN2 has a 30 level limit.

    Also, I didn't ask if NWN2 would have identical exploits. I asked if people did that in NWN2. I'm going to take from your answer that "No, people didn't do that in NWN2." Which leads me to wonder why they'd be more likely to do it in NWN.
    All I said was that it would change the balance and gameplay of NWN.

    I did not say this was a bad thing, nor did I say this was a good thing. Only that it is a significant change to the gameplay of NWN and that you cannot judge NWN1 based on what was done in NWN2.

    Your condescension is not necessary and only serves to distract from the opinion you are attempting to share.

    Kindest regards,

    - Jamie
    I am sorry that I came across as condescending. That was not my intention.

    I responded as I did because you appeared to be defending the post I responded to. If that wasn't the case, I wish your post had been clearer.
    Post edited by BelleSorciere on
  • RAM021RAM021 Member Posts: 403
    4+ classes is long overdue.
    JimbobslimbobProontThorsson
  • badstrrefbadstrref Member Posts: 124
    edited January 2018
    -
    Post edited by badstrref on
    ProontDonaghue
  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 909
    NWN2 had a lot more rules deviations and rule bugs I think. Most of the NWN2 meta revolves around exploiting the same bugs and deviations over and over again rather than diversifying by multiclassing. It's quite clear that most of what NWN2 allows wont work in neither NWN, D&D 3.0, D&D 3.5, or even Pathfinder. You would need to explicitly try to reproduce bugs to get something to be like NWN2, so "NWN shouldn't become NWN2" shouldn't be an argument against additional class slots.

    By being an option set on the module it wont break the 15 year old meta on some old servers but it will open up a lot more options for creators to flesh out how things work. The same could be said of extending the level limit too.

    I'm not sure what GetSumLevels would do but there is already GetCharacterLevel(object oTarget) in "nw_i0_generic" and GetHitDice(object oCreature) which both report a target's total levels / level sum.
    michauBelleSorciereProontRAM021
  • Dark_AnsemDark_Ansem Member Posts: 992
    were it up to me, we'd raise the level cap to 60 and get to up to 7 classes!
    clansunstarProontRAM021
  • voidofopinionvoidofopinion Member, Moderator Posts: 1,248

    theboy said:


    If you were able to multiclass four characters, your character would be so general and across the board that it'd be hard to define what you actually were. It'd make going into a class not so much of a commitment, and people would likely just do 1 level of the fourth class to get skills or saves or something. Adding a fourth class would also change the meta for those into powerbuilding, some characters would become sub-optimal. There's no real reason for a fourth class, you can already create whatever kind of combat style you want with the three.

    Is this what happened in NWN2? I don't recall that being the case.
    Not even slightly the same game.

    Due to NWN1 being its own ruleset what is open to exploit in one is not automatically exploitable in the other and vice versa.

    A 4th class would radically alter the balance and gameplay in NWN1.

    Oh come on. Neverwinter Nights is D&D 3.0. NWN 2 is 3.5. They both have a lot more in common than they do differences when it comes to game mechanics. The major difference is that NWN has a 40 level limit and NWN2 has a 30 level limit.

    Also, I didn't ask if NWN2 would have identical exploits. I asked if people did that in NWN2. I'm going to take from your answer that "No, people didn't do that in NWN2." Which leads me to wonder why they'd be more likely to do it in NWN.
    All I said was that it would change the balance and gameplay of NWN.

    I did not say this was a bad thing, nor did I say this was a good thing. Only that it is a significant change to the gameplay of NWN and that you cannot judge NWN1 based on what was done in NWN2.

    Your condescension is not necessary and only serves to distract from the opinion you are attempting to share.

    Kindest regards,

    - Jamie
    I am sorry that I came across as condescending. That was not my intention.

    I responded as I did because you appeared to be defending the post I responded to. If that wasn't the case, I wish your post had been clearer.
    Thank you for your apology.

    It was unnecessary but nonetheless welcome.

    I understand NWN is something we have all been passionate about for a decade and a half. However, we are still a small community for the moment and regardless of how good an idea is or how impassioned we make our argument... Being kind to one another and fostering a larger fan base is probably the single best thing we can do for the future health and success of NWN.

    If NWN:EE only sells 1000 copies because we are at each others throats and new players do not feel welcome, then the game will not see much continued development.

    I look forward to sharing ideas with you and our future discussions Belle Sorcière.

    Respectfully yours,

    - Jamie Goulding
    BelleSorciere
  • RifkinRifkin Member Posts: 141
    I think this is a great idea, but it should be further away on the roadmap. If this feature is implemented, PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF AO, make it toggleable (ini file, Enable4thClass=1/0)
  • MalisharaMalishara Member Posts: 16
    NWN ENHANCED Edition.... not NWN REVISED Edition. Let's stay true to the base game mechanics. Changing them will change far too many things across the board. There are far more important things to be worked on than catering to people who want OP gameplay in the form of more classes, more levels.
  • voidofopinionvoidofopinion Member, Moderator Posts: 1,248
    Malishara said:

    NWN ENHANCED Edition.... not NWN REVISED Edition. Let's stay true to the base game mechanics. Changing them will change far too many things across the board. There are far more important things to be worked on than catering to people who want OP gameplay in the form of more classes, more levels.

    Very true. But I would hope that by default, game settings would remain the same IE: 3 classes. However there would be a server/mod setting to unlock a 4th (or more) class if the creators wished.

    I don't think such changes would/should be back ported to the original campaign or custom modules. But more options for mods and PW's are more options for mods and PW's!
This discussion has been closed.