The Add the ability to have a fourth class card discussion

JuliusBorisov

Greatings, NWN:EE enthusiasts!

Please, provide more details and feedback for

https://trello.com/c/qoi6QZTO/32-add-the-ability-to-have-a-fourth-class

in this thread.

Balanor

I personally would rather have Beamdog focus their efforts elsewhere. NWN1 is not NWN2 any more than it is the BG series. And if things like party control are not being added on that premise, to me 3 classes per PC is one of the NWN hallmarks that differentiate it from other games. Finally, I feel the three class combination in NWN which gives dozens upon dozens of possible combinations ensures more than enough variety for anyone (re)playing any module in NWN.

Symphony

It seems like there's a lot of different opinions about this suggestion, there are multiple paths to go down. Some people insist that the game stay at three classes, other people want prestige classes not to count towards the three class limit. Some people want no limits, and some people are happy with a fourth class.

It is also worth discussing that class eligibility is often determined by 2da tables, and worth noting that there are stock and customizable Experience Point penalties for classes that are not considered favored classes for a selected PC race.

DerpCity

It seems that one of the major goals of NWN:EE is, other from making it function better on more modern hardware, to give the modders the ability to do what they want to do, and if they can do it already then it is to make that job simpler. I personally very rarely went past three classes while playing NWN2, but I appreciated that the option was there. If I were to implement the feature into NWN:EE, I would give the option to a module or or server designers to set the maximum number of classes as a variable, ranging from 1 to 4. (Or to potentially the total number of classes available through the current haks/overrides, though that would probably make your character sheet look like an absolute mess or be difficult to implement) That way, any balancing issues that may arise can be fixed by simply removing the ability to take more classes than the desired amount, and it would provide the players wanting to multiclass into more classes with the ability to.

IndiraLightfoot

I reckon this is an option for NWN:EE much farther down the road.

ShadowM

I with the others who think three is fine and there are plenty more important other things we need/want.

Verilazic

I agree that this should be a lower priority. There are better ways to improve character customizability, for example making it easier to create custom classes. That said, if/when implemented, simply adding a 4th slot should be enough.

FreshLemonBun

More classes is the better option. Not just for extended multiclassing but also for advancement by HD for potential monster races, which would take up two slots for their class with only one more for prestige or multiclass.

It's better to make it a module properties option on the module that defaults to 3 but can be changed to any positive number if the mod builder has something unique in mind.

KevinCurtis

If this is an easy adjustment then by all means put it in, but I agree if this would take significant resources we need more class modding options first.

NeverwinterWights

I'm not against the idea. There've been times where I had a great idea for a multiclass build only to remember that it would require a 4th class. If it something pretty easy to implement, why not? And a simple setting for maximum classes in a mod or PW would be nice. Not a big priority or deal breaker for me though.

Drewbert_ahoy

3 is fine for many reasons. Not the least of which is 3e rules and the front loading of abilities, which was changed in 3.5 in many cases, but I doubt they would go through the hassle of converting everything to 3.5. Time/resources are better spent elsewhere.

theboy

There should not be the ability to have a fourth class! After playing the game for over a decade, you get to acquire a skill for building characters and trying out multi-classing. For martial classes, multi-classing can be considered as the most optimal thing, doing things like skill-dumping (taking one level of rogue and putting all your skillpoints into tumble for higher ac) are tricks you can learn to make some unique and powerful characters. There's already hundreds of character build combinations you can create, and the players have gotten used to the fact that you can't have more than three.

If you were able to multiclass four characters, your character would be so general and across the board that it'd be hard to define what you actually were. It'd make going into a class not so much of a commitment, and people would likely just do 1 level of the fourth class to get skills or saves or something. Adding a fourth class would also change the meta for those into powerbuilding, some characters would become sub-optimal. There's no real reason for a fourth class, you can already create whatever kind of combat style you want with the three.

BelleSorciere

theboy said:

If you were able to multiclass four characters, your character would be so general and across the board that it'd be hard to define what you actually were. It'd make going into a class not so much of a commitment, and people would likely just do 1 level of the fourth class to get skills or saves or something. Adding a fourth class would also change the meta for those into powerbuilding, some characters would become sub-optimal. There's no real reason for a fourth class, you can already create whatever kind of combat style you want with the three.

Is this what happened in NWN2? I don't recall that being the case.

Jonlun

I would like to see a 4th class implemented just to shake things up a bit.

voidofopinion

BelleSorciere said:

theboy said:

If you were able to multiclass four characters, your character would be so general and across the board that it'd be hard to define what you actually were. It'd make going into a class not so much of a commitment, and people would likely just do 1 level of the fourth class to get skills or saves or something. Adding a fourth class would also change the meta for those into powerbuilding, some characters would become sub-optimal. There's no real reason for a fourth class, you can already create whatever kind of combat style you want with the three.

Is this what happened in NWN2? I don't recall that being the case.

Not even slightly the same game.

Due to NWN1 being its own ruleset what is open to exploit in one is not automatically exploitable in the other and vice versa.

A 4th class would radically alter the balance and gameplay in NWN1.

BelleSorciere

voidofopinion said:

BelleSorciere said:

theboy said:

If you were able to multiclass four characters, your character would be so general and across the board that it'd be hard to define what you actually were. It'd make going into a class not so much of a commitment, and people would likely just do 1 level of the fourth class to get skills or saves or something. Adding a fourth class would also change the meta for those into powerbuilding, some characters would become sub-optimal. There's no real reason for a fourth class, you can already create whatever kind of combat style you want with the three.

Is this what happened in NWN2? I don't recall that being the case.

Not even slightly the same game.

Due to NWN1 being its own ruleset what is open to exploit in one is not automatically exploitable in the other and vice versa.

A 4th class would radically alter the balance and gameplay in NWN1.

Oh come on. Neverwinter Nights is D&D 3.0. NWN 2 is 3.5. They both have a lot more in common than they do differences when it comes to game mechanics. The major difference is that NWN has a 40 level limit and NWN2 has a 30 level limit.

Also, I didn't ask if NWN2 would have identical exploits. I asked if people did that in NWN2. I'm going to take from your answer that "No, people didn't do that in NWN2." Which leads me to wonder why they'd be more likely to do it in NWN.

Mordaedil

There's no real issue with adding a 4th class to already having 3 classes. If you wanted to avoid abuse cases, you'd need to limit it to 2 classes and then you aren't really playing 3rd edition D&D anymore. Besides, multiclassing is nearly only a martial class beneficial thing, as casters lose too much multiclassing, delaying it until they are near the peak of their power, such as in the case of a sorcerer multiclassing into paladin and monk for divine grace and evasion.

And given that is the top tier OPness of that kind of build, there's really nothing to add on top of that. No other class gives anything near as much benefit. Unless Divine Grace stacks with the blackguard equivalent.

But if you frankly see this as a problem, you can always write scripts that prevent it.

voidofopinion

BelleSorciere said:

voidofopinion said:

BelleSorciere said:

theboy said:

If you were able to multiclass four characters, your character would be so general and across the board that it'd be hard to define what you actually were. It'd make going into a class not so much of a commitment, and people would likely just do 1 level of the fourth class to get skills or saves or something. Adding a fourth class would also change the meta for those into powerbuilding, some characters would become sub-optimal. There's no real reason for a fourth class, you can already create whatever kind of combat style you want with the three.

Is this what happened in NWN2? I don't recall that being the case.

Not even slightly the same game.

Due to NWN1 being its own ruleset what is open to exploit in one is not automatically exploitable in the other and vice versa.

A 4th class would radically alter the balance and gameplay in NWN1.

Oh come on. Neverwinter Nights is D&D 3.0. NWN 2 is 3.5. They both have a lot more in common than they do differences when it comes to game mechanics. The major difference is that NWN has a 40 level limit and NWN2 has a 30 level limit.

Also, I didn't ask if NWN2 would have identical exploits. I asked if people did that in NWN2. I'm going to take from your answer that "No, people didn't do that in NWN2." Which leads me to wonder why they'd be more likely to do it in NWN.

All I said was that it would change the balance and gameplay of NWN.

I did not say this was a bad thing, nor did I say this was a good thing. Only that it is a significant change to the gameplay of NWN and that you cannot judge NWN1 based on what was done in NWN2.

Your condescension is not necessary and only serves to distract from the opinion you are attempting to share.

Kindest regards,

- Jamie

Proleric

For backward compatibility, a fourth class could only be made available as an option for new modules that enabled it. Why? Well, existing modules often have code like this:

    while (++i < 4)
    {
      nLevel = nLevel + GetLevelByPosition(i, oPC);
    }

I was never a fan of multi-class, personally.

Avenger_teambg

Seems like NWN needs a GetLevelSum(oPC) command. (Of course, module based limit with default 3 as well).

BelleSorciere

voidofopinion said:

BelleSorciere said:

voidofopinion said:

BelleSorciere said:

theboy said:

If you were able to multiclass four characters, your character would be so general and across the board that it'd be hard to define what you actually were. It'd make going into a class not so much of a commitment, and people would likely just do 1 level of the fourth class to get skills or saves or something. Adding a fourth class would also change the meta for those into powerbuilding, some characters would become sub-optimal. There's no real reason for a fourth class, you can already create whatever kind of combat style you want with the three.

Is this what happened in NWN2? I don't recall that being the case.

Not even slightly the same game.

Due to NWN1 being its own ruleset what is open to exploit in one is not automatically exploitable in the other and vice versa.

A 4th class would radically alter the balance and gameplay in NWN1.

Oh come on. Neverwinter Nights is D&D 3.0. NWN 2 is 3.5. They both have a lot more in common than they do differences when it comes to game mechanics. The major difference is that NWN has a 40 level limit and NWN2 has a 30 level limit.

Also, I didn't ask if NWN2 would have identical exploits. I asked if people did that in NWN2. I'm going to take from your answer that "No, people didn't do that in NWN2." Which leads me to wonder why they'd be more likely to do it in NWN.

All I said was that it would change the balance and gameplay of NWN.

I did not say this was a bad thing, nor did I say this was a good thing. Only that it is a significant change to the gameplay of NWN and that you cannot judge NWN1 based on what was done in NWN2.

Your condescension is not necessary and only serves to distract from the opinion you are attempting to share.

Kindest regards,

- Jamie

I am sorry that I came across as condescending. That was not my intention.

I responded as I did because you appeared to be defending the post I responded to. If that wasn't the case, I wish your post had been clearer.

RAM021

4+ classes is long overdue.

RifleLeroy

4 classes could revitalize pvp and pve server. Pls do it.

badstrref

-

FreshLemonBun

NWN2 had a lot more rules deviations and rule bugs I think. Most of the NWN2 meta revolves around exploiting the same bugs and deviations over and over again rather than diversifying by multiclassing. It's quite clear that most of what NWN2 allows wont work in neither NWN, D&D 3.0, D&D 3.5, or even Pathfinder. You would need to explicitly try to reproduce bugs to get something to be like NWN2, so "NWN shouldn't become NWN2" shouldn't be an argument against additional class slots.

By being an option set on the module it wont break the 15 year old meta on some old servers but it will open up a lot more options for creators to flesh out how things work. The same could be said of extending the level limit too.

I'm not sure what GetSumLevels would do but there is already GetCharacterLevel(object oTarget) in "nw_i0_generic" and GetHitDice(object oCreature) which both report a target's total levels / level sum.

Dark_Ansem

were it up to me, we'd raise the level cap to 60 and get to up to 7 classes!

Jimbobslimbob

My two cents...

Neverwinter Nights 2 had a maximum level cap of 30 and yet it allowed you to multiclass into 4 different classes. It worked really well and added an additional layer of character customisation.

Neverwinter Nights 1 had a maximum level cap of 40 (10 more than NWN 2) and yet you could only multiclass into 3 classes. With such a lot of levels, it seemed to really limit character creativity.

One of my favourite characters to play in NWN 2 was a Fighter/Wizard/Assassin/Arcane Archer. You just cant do this in NWN 1 due to the restrictions. Especially since classes like the Assassin never got HIPS in NWN 1 but did in NWN 2.

----

Character building was one of the things I loved about the NWN games - especially NWN 2. It would be great to see some "love" here.

voidofopinion

BelleSorciere said:

voidofopinion said:

BelleSorciere said:

voidofopinion said:

BelleSorciere said:

theboy said:

If you were able to multiclass four characters, your character would be so general and across the board that it'd be hard to define what you actually were. It'd make going into a class not so much of a commitment, and people would likely just do 1 level of the fourth class to get skills or saves or something. Adding a fourth class would also change the meta for those into powerbuilding, some characters would become sub-optimal. There's no real reason for a fourth class, you can already create whatever kind of combat style you want with the three.

Is this what happened in NWN2? I don't recall that being the case.

Not even slightly the same game.

Due to NWN1 being its own ruleset what is open to exploit in one is not automatically exploitable in the other and vice versa.

A 4th class would radically alter the balance and gameplay in NWN1.

Oh come on. Neverwinter Nights is D&D 3.0. NWN 2 is 3.5. They both have a lot more in common than they do differences when it comes to game mechanics. The major difference is that NWN has a 40 level limit and NWN2 has a 30 level limit.

Also, I didn't ask if NWN2 would have identical exploits. I asked if people did that in NWN2. I'm going to take from your answer that "No, people didn't do that in NWN2." Which leads me to wonder why they'd be more likely to do it in NWN.

All I said was that it would change the balance and gameplay of NWN.

I did not say this was a bad thing, nor did I say this was a good thing. Only that it is a significant change to the gameplay of NWN and that you cannot judge NWN1 based on what was done in NWN2.

Your condescension is not necessary and only serves to distract from the opinion you are attempting to share.

Kindest regards,

- Jamie

I am sorry that I came across as condescending. That was not my intention.

I responded as I did because you appeared to be defending the post I responded to. If that wasn't the case, I wish your post had been clearer.

Thank you for your apology.

It was unnecessary but nonetheless welcome.

I understand NWN is something we have all been passionate about for a decade and a half. However, we are still a small community for the moment and regardless of how good an idea is or how impassioned we make our argument... Being kind to one another and fostering a larger fan base is probably the single best thing we can do for the future health and success of NWN.

If NWN:EE only sells 1000 copies because we are at each others throats and new players do not feel welcome, then the game will not see much continued development.

I look forward to sharing ideas with you and our future discussions Belle Sorcière.

Respectfully yours,

- Jamie Goulding

Rifkin

I think this is a great idea, but it should be further away on the roadmap. If this feature is implemented, PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF AO, make it toggleable (ini file, Enable4thClass=1/0)

Malishara

NWN ENHANCED Edition.... not NWN REVISED Edition. Let's stay true to the base game mechanics. Changing them will change far too many things across the board. There are far more important things to be worked on than catering to people who want OP gameplay in the form of more classes, more levels.

voidofopinion

Malishara said:

NWN ENHANCED Edition.... not NWN REVISED Edition. Let's stay true to the base game mechanics. Changing them will change far too many things across the board. There are far more important things to be worked on than catering to people who want OP gameplay in the form of more classes, more levels.

Very true. But I would hope that by default, game settings would remain the same IE: 3 classes. However there would be a server/mod setting to unlock a 4th (or more) class if the creators wished.

I don't think such changes would/should be back ported to the original campaign or custom modules. But more options for mods and PW's are more options for mods and PW's!