Why Are People Asking For Things That Already Exist?

TarotRedhand

In the twitch streams and elsewhere I keep seeing people asking for BeamDog to make things that already exist. I wish that they would realise that it is now 2017 and not 2002. Take this week's twitch stream. Someone asked for a script generator. There are in fact 2 that already exist. There is the updated (to 1.69/Diamond) version of Lilac Souls's venerable script generator. That covers most of what you'll need for day to day scripting. If you need something a little more complicated the University of Alberta may have it covered with their Scriptease. This is a more complex version of the built-in (to NwN's toolset) Plot Wizard.

Please just do a little research before asking. Even a quick question here or on the vault before you ask for features that might already exist.

TR

FreshLemonBun

I find the psychology behind it quite fascinating.

fkirenicus

Well, it would be nice to have official tools support, not having to rely on 3rd party programs that may or may not work 100%. Also, not all who have joined us here know about what's out there, neither custom content nor 3rd party tools. Not all 3rd party tools are easy to use either, e.g. the tileset editor or gff editor.

FinneousPJ

FreshLemonBun said:

I find the psychology behind it quite fascinating.

Really? I can explain it in a single woed: lazy

TarotRedhand

@fkirenicus All I am saying is for them to please ask if something exists. With 15 years of community work, there is a good chance that it might. While I don't know about the tileset editor, I have found the gff editor easy enough with the tutorial on it.

TR

Thorsson

You mean similar to not bothering to check spelling before hitting "post"?

TarotRedhand

If you're talking about the word "tileset", that is a generally accepted spelling even if the spell-checker on here red-flags it.

TR

dafena

Wow, didn't know of Scriptease, amazing tool!

Staran

Because it works. It got the fighter class in game and the ability to mouse click icons on an interface to perform actions.
None of that was there unless we asked for it

scriver

dafena said:

Wow, didn't know of Scriptease, amazing tool!

I absolutely love the name. It's punny on so many levels.

BelleSorciere

TarotRedhand said:

If you're talking about the word "tileset", that is a generally accepted spelling even if the spell-checker on here red-flags it.

TR

He's talking about FinneousPJ's post.

I think spelling jabs are kind of low, though.

T0R0

TR ~ I know it's hard to believe on a game so old, but my guess is that most simply don't know about the CC community, thus don't know what is available/possible. I mean, just look how many posts there are about the OC. Who cares about the OC..... it's basically just a module.
I think it's a case of "can't see the wood for the trees"

Rifkin

We don't need to make the scripting more accessible. If you can't script, find a scripter who will work with you. Or, I don't know... Take the time to learn it?

BelleSorciere

Rifkin said:

We don't need to make the scripting more accessible. If you can't script, find a scripter who will work with you. Or, I don't know... Take the time to learn it?

This is not a good suggestion.

Of course people will learn scripting, but there's nothing wrong and everything good about making the scripting more accessible.

Rifkin

How do you purpose to make the scripting more accessible? I'm of the mind that it is already as accessible as it needs to be.

BelleSorciere

Script generators already make it more accessible. Thing is we'll need updated or new apps to make use of the new commands available in EE.

I'm not saying people shouldn't learn how to script, I think they should. I've been working on that myself (I used to know some but it's been ten years since I last tried to build anything and forgot it all). Just that it doesn't hurt to have assistance.

Rifkin

As an experienced NWN Scripter, whom started from scratch, Used Lilac Soul's generator, and finally learned how to script on my own, I have a few points to mention:

1. Script Generators are a crutch:
Why a crutch? They don't have you learn anything about scripting. Sure, you see the script, sure you could attempt to understand it, but these script generators re-use variables, and name them incredibly vague and generic things, like oObject, and oTarget...
2. Generated Scripts are often incredibly inefficient code.
3. Eventually, when you want to do more involved or complex things, the script generator will not do it for you.
4. Learning NWScript is not difficult at all. I learned it as an adolescent 14 year old.
5. Debugging Generated scripts is a nightmare. As previously mentioned, the code is practically unreadable in larger scripts, and the reusage of variables, while a memory friendly endeavour (I'm not even sure if it matters for that point) is not a coder friendly/readable aspect.


If people need to learn the scripting language, perhaps some basic tutorials could be added in a sample module.

I'll end with an old addage:

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day.
Teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime.

BelleSorciere

Okay so crutches aren't actually a bad thing. When you say "it's a crutch" I read "it helps someone walk when they face challenges walking." Or in this case, it assists people with scripting when they do not know how to script themselves.

In any event, I pretty much think you're wrong, and I'm not going to debate you further.

Actually, I'll add one thing: That Lilac didn't work as well as it could means that a better script generator is what's needed, not that the idea of script generators are bad.

ildaron

TarotRedhand said:

In the twitch streams and elsewhere I keep seeing people asking for BeamDog to make things that already exist. I wish that they would realise that it is now 2017 and not 2002. Take this week's twitch stream. Someone asked for a script generator. There are in fact 2 that already exist. There is the updated (to 1.69/Diamond) version of Lilac Souls's venerable script generator. That covers most of what you'll need for day to day scripting. If you need something a little more complicated the University of Alberta may have it covered with their Scriptease. This is a more complex version of the built-in (to NwN's toolset) Plot Wizard.

Please just do a little research before asking. Even a quick question here or on the vault before you ask for features that might already exist.

TR

As you mentioned it is 2017 (and in a few weeks) it shall be 2018. Lilac's generator was last updated in 2015 (for version 1.69) while the University of Alberta's was released to github in 2015. Aside from repeating what has been mentioned in this thread a variety of reasons of why people may make this requests may be they would prefer the company who controls the toolkit, make it easier by creating a better scripting wizard rather than relying on third support. Or new people may not know about it. Another reason for this is, it is 2017 and Beamdog has upgraded past 1.69. Will another version come out?

There are many things which have been done in the past and many which will continue to be done in the future. Relying on only what has been done is not looking to the future. I believe many of the active 1.69 PW are active because they continue to develop their code and improve upon what they already have. With the EE version I believe this will continue. The past will be use as an example, however every programmer has (hopefully) improved and will continue to develop better code.

FreshLemonBun

Many of the tools released by Bioware were practically opaque in their usefulness or there simply weren't any tools at all. The ones used today are third party and created by the community. I think ppl will be faced with a choice to either wait for Beamdog to improve everything a larger company did and even didn't do or overcome their allergy to third party tools.

On the one hand you could be waiting forever on the other hand you have many options that work today.

You don't really need an updated script generator either, the new functions wont change much and if you really want them you could just type them in. Most importantly a script generator wont be able to Google for you so you can find out how to get past that weird bug that ruins what you want to do without a good reason.

Everyone is also being quite vague when they say "improve script generation wizards" and "make scripting more accessible."

Well what are what are the script templates that are missing, the scripts you believe if only there were simple templates of how to do those common scripts it would be so much better?

Thorsson

BelleSorciere said:

He's talking about FinneousPJ's post.

I think spelling jabs are kind of low, though.

They are, but so was Finneous's post et al. It was an answer 'in kind'.

Thorsson

Rifkin said:

4. Learning NWScript is not difficult at all. I learned it as an adolescent 14 year old.

Emotionally, you still seem kind of stuck at that age. "I did it this way, so everyone else should do the same" is not great logic.

But I rather suspect that you will not get this.

Rifkin

Not sure where the personal attacks are coming from. Anyway, maybe I'll make some tutorial's for NWScript and post them here. It really is not that hard.

mlnevese

Personal attacks are not allowed by the forum rules, please everyone be civil. It's perfectly possible to express your own views without attacking anyone.

This is just a friendly reminder for everyone to read the site rules.

Kenji

We can take the PW Arelith for example, one of its selling points is that it requires no extra haks and you can join in on the action from the get-go for as long as you have a legitimate copy of NWN: EE.

If the devs somehow incorporated high-quality 3rd party contents and made them part of the EE, what that means is that multiplayer sessions and PWs can utilize even more assets without requiring the players to download more files in order to join in on the action.

Of course, there can also be another work-around, found here in this thread: Syncing HAK contents by @ThriKreen

TarotRedhand

@Rifkin Before you write your tutorials you might care to look in the downloadable version of the lexicon for the already existing tutorials there. Also I have released two tutorials - TR's Basics - Decisions and TR's Basics - Boolean Algebra. I have another finished but not yet released and a fourth that is about 80% done. These were all planned before the announcement of EE.

TR

voidofopinion

Rifkin said:

As an experienced NWN Scripter, whom started from scratch, Used Lilac Soul's generator, and finally learned how to script on my own, I have a few points to mention:
1. Script Generators are a crutch:
Why a crutch? They don't have you learn anything about scripting. Sure, you see the script, sure you could attempt to understand it, but these script generators re-use variables, and name them incredibly vague and generic things, like oObject, and oTarget...

As a man who has walked with a cane since the age of 34 I happen to be quite fond of crutches.

Upward mobility is a right of all, not just the able-bodied.

I appreciate this was not your meaning but the analogy still holds the same. Some people need more help than others to stand on their own two feet and that is not something you should judge them for.

It is important to remember that simply because a feature is not directly aimed at you does not mean it lacks value to the greater NWN community. Especially if we see an influx of new players and builders with the release of the Enhanced Edition.

Rifkin said:

2. Generated Scripts are often incredibly inefficient code.

Which is really only an issue if you are attempting something far outside the scope of a script generator. If someone has the ambition to create something of the scope where that will truly matter then they are probably not using a script generator. And if they are? It's not our concern.

Rifkin said:

3. Eventually, when you want to do more involved or complex things, the script generator will not do it for you.

Which is when people learn to stand on their own. Only now they have enough experience to understand basic syntax which is a huge leg up when first learning to code.

Necessity is the mother of invention. However, lowering the barrier of entry and making nwscript accessible to new builders can't possibly be a bad thing.

Rifkin said:

4. Learning NWScript is not difficult at all. I learned it as an adolescent 14 year old.

I have taken advanced courses in C#, C++, SQL, and Python... And I will still use script generators to do grunt work I can't be bothered with or to make a quick blueprint that I can tweak to my needs.

As my old C++ professor used to say to the class:

"Why reinvent the wheel?"

Unless you build your own language and libraries then you are already using someone elses code. And if you ever work on a large scale professional project then you will be making edits and hooks to someone elses code. And if you are hired on to do network admin then you will spend most of your time running configuration code written by someone else.

So unless you are working on a personal project then more often than not then coding is a collaborative experience and not a boutique one.

It is fantastic that NWN inspired you to learn nwscript at the age of 14!

However, not everyone wants to learn how to code. My wife has absolutely no interest in learning nwscript but with the help of a script generator she can comfortably make quests for my PW and they only need minor tweaking from me to avoid possible conflicts.

Code reuse is incredibly important to the health of the industry. It saves time and it means we can stand on the shoulders of those who came before and reach for greater heights.

Yes, eventually everyone needs to take off the training wheels if they want to push past a certain point but that doesn't mean they shouldn't have a helping hand to get there.

I don't see how that is a bad thing. Updated and better supported tools baked into NWN:EE would only serve to help people like her contribute more to the NWN community.

Rifkin said:

5. Debugging Generated scripts is a nightmare. As previously mentioned, the code is practically unreadable in larger scripts, and the reusage of variables, while a memory friendly endeavor (I'm not even sure if it matters for that point) is not a coder friendly/readable aspect.

Which isn't really your problem to solve. You don't need or use script generators and you are no ones baby-sitter. Just like I am not responsible if you want to make a 32x32 area and fill it to the brim with complex AI and particle effects. However, I am more than happy that the ability for both exists and would welcome both being a little more robust.

Also, why can't better debugging tools be part of the package deal? Debug tools of NWN are not exactly... advanced. Or even useful.

Rifkin said:

If people need to learn the scripting language, perhaps some basic tutorials could be added in a sample module.

I think that is a fantastic idea!

You seem to have a great deal of knowledge you want to share and a genuine desire to teach.

However, I would implore you to take under consideration that all people learn differently and that with coding the destination is often more important than the journey.

After all,

Silicon valley was built on the dirtiest of hacks.

- Jamie

InflatableFriend

I know I've requested a couple of things that already exist in terms of 3rd party custom content. It's not because I'm ignorant of the 3rd party bits but rather I'd like to see updated official versions that work more fluidly or have much better integration.

In regards to the coding debate, while I'd love to learn it's way, way down the list of things that I need to dedicate a depressingly sparse amount of time to. So having anything that lets me bodge functioning bits together as needed is greatly appreciated!

Lastly,

Rifkin said:

Learning NWScript is not difficult at all. I learned it as an adolescent 14 year old.

People always seem oddly surprised that it's possible to learn stuff when you're young. Given that at 14 your entire life is wired for and revolves around education, information and learning with it really shouldn't come as a huge shock that it's possible to learn stuff at that age.

FreshLemonBun

In the past when 3rd party content was integrated into the base installation of the game I don't think it was always a difference in quality and fluidity but just that it was pre-installed. A tile is still just a tile, a script is still just a script.

Also these days lots of ppl learn new things even if they're not technically skilled. You can find tons of youtube videos about learning codes and how to copy and paste a code into a program by all sorts of ppl. Maybe you prefer the bearded old techie method or maybe you prefer a more relatable fashion conscious woman around your age. You also have websites like Khan Academy and Code Academy which make it simple with baby steps easing you into it.

A lot of all sorts of ppl can code, celebrities can code, moms can code, girls can code, boys can code, probably even your pet can code. A lot of big names say coding is simple and a critical life skill for the modern age no matter your discipline. So seeing some of this discussion is like stepping into a time warp into the 1990s or something.

If you want specific generated templates of scripts you should explain what it is you want to accomplish with it. Knowing codes is one thing but being psychic is a whole other story and I'm not sure even Beamdog are psychics but I might be wrong. If ppl don't explain exactly what they want and the problems they're running into they might just get more of the same tutorials and same templates from code generation wizards.

voidofopinion

FreshLemonBun said:

A lot of all sorts of ppl can code, celebrities can code, moms can code, girls can code, boys can code, probably even your pet can code. A lot of big names say coding is simple and a critical life skill for the modern age no matter your discipline. So seeing some of this discussion is like stepping into a time warp into the 1990s or something.

In Japan you can go into a Maid Cafe and have some young objectified girl in a costume teach you how to code.

https://allabout-japan.com/en/article/5795/

FreshLemonBun

@voidofopinion At first I thought that was a bit of a weird comment but the article actually seemed quite good and less about objectification. I would not mind being paid to dress as a maid and learn coding and marketable job skills.

Maybe I should do a twitch thing where I cosplay and teach ppl how to do basic nwscripts lol