They couldn't have predicted the fallout of the SoD controversy, but they could have easily avoided creating more continuity problems during development. That's on them and no amount of mods are going to fix that.
I would like to see these things happen too, but it's up to the modders now. Trent has been clear about it. And there's some work done already : LavaDelVortel finished a mod that close the Skie arc in BG2EE. You can find it here :
Artemius also has a Caelar mod on the back burner. So, things will be done by modders, but most probably never by Beamdog themselves. Is it the answer you want to hear ? Well, it's not, but that the harsh truth, I guess. Trent must have made his calculations and decided that it's not worth the money to do so.
Oh shoot. Well. I appreciate the dedication and skill of the modders working on Skie and Caelar, but those particular characters are not my main interest. Just the new SOD characters would be fine in BG2ee: goblin, bard, Glint (and Corwin for hte sake of completeness, though I probably won't play her.)
Question: Would an EET installation mean that I could summon forth the SOD chars in BG2ee through the CluaConsole ? I mean, if they're in the game files because EET, I could, couldn't I ? (Obviously I have no no idea how EET works). That'd be enough for me. Wouldn't need much more than the characters themselves. I can overlook any jarring transitions or misplaced joining dialogue.
@Contemplative_Hamster That would work, because their files would be in your game. They however will have no banters, but I guess you know that already.
I would like to see these things happen too, but it's up to the modders now. Trent has been clear about it. And there's some work done already : LavaDelVortel finished a mod that close the Skie arc in BG2EE. You can find it here :
Artemius also has a Caelar mod on the back burner. So, things will be done by modders, but most probably never by Beamdog themselves. Is it the answer you want to hear ? Well, it's not, but that the harsh truth, I guess. Trent must have made his calculations and decided that it's not worth the money to do so.
Yeah, I understand that. The issue I have is that Beamdog already has the expertise and knowledge of the engine. Sure, making content for the IE is not cost-effective for Beamdog *right now*, but in the long run you don't think they could generate revenue with IE modules/campaigns? To me, I can definitely see a situation where that is possible, even without knowing the math behind the numbers. Trent has said that Siege was a success for them, and where there's a will there's a way, as Corwin would say.
I understand Trent made his calculations, but that is not always the end-all-be-all. Did they factor in the fact that they (Beamdog) have the knowledge and know-how of using the engine, aka a great headstart, and that they can improve their tools over time and get to a point where they could churn out content and revitalize the IE mod community like they are doing with NWN? And how about the pretty huge amount of BG/IE fans that are still out there that would love new IE content? SoD could just be the tip of the iceberg. They could take the maps of BG1/SoD/BG2, work with the modders behind mods like the EET that combines them and they could add new campaigns in different cities on Toril, combining them into an epic world and campaign. Or just start fresh, a new BG-style trilogy where they keep adding content, like a "persistent Toril" in the IE.
Yeah, yeah, wishful thinking and all that. It always comes down to money. But there's potential there. If Beamdog had just remastered BG1/BG2 and not made SoD I wouldn't feel so strongly about it. But they already made a 20+ hour expansion in the Infinity Engine. Who else could do that right now? They've learned the engine, they're amazing with it (SoD is very good, using a lot of tricks and neat quirks of the engine. They show a marvelous grasp of it.) Maybe a couple modders have the know-how but they don't have the resources of BD to do something major like that, either.
Imagine new Forgotten Realms content made by Beamdog in the Infinity Engine. Or a better modding tool that makes user content easier to make for it. Yes, I know they're doing NWN but it's not the same. As much as I love NWN and all the great fanmade content, my heart still lies with the IE. They could maybe even create a new 2-game saga like BG, or even a trilogy (they could get *that* good with the tools, no doubt about it.) Siege shows great promise and I'd be sad for that to be the last of the IE we ever see again.
While I know nothing about coding or anything like that, if someone wants to help me get started with modding for the IE, dang it, I will have a look at it and try it. I'm good with computers but not on a coding/design level. I did design my first pen-and-paper RPG @ age 11 based on the Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together ruleset (this was 22 years ago, I'm old. .) I don't have mad experience doing it but I've been RPG gaming for even longer and I'd give it a go if someone wanted to help. Feel free to message me here or email me.
The EET workaround aside, I am just now contemplating downloading the BG2 Branwen npc-and-npc-tutorial mod from pocketplane.net, learning how to code, and modding the SOD NPCs into BG2ee. That is how much I want this. Clearly this will be an enormously, frivolously inefficient use of my time and cut into what little gaming time I have, what with a family, a more than full time job, a mortgage, etc., but I am thinking about it. And I wish I didn't have to go to such lengths to get this small wish fulfilled.
And if I did manage to do this, I would not be able to share it because it'd be a massive breach of copyright what with all the SOD soundsets and code that'd have to go into it, I think.
Breach of copyright? I'm pretty sure you can freely share mods as long as you don't charge for them, right?
I'd like to learn to code just to be able to make my own content for IE. Some RPG developers also started by making mods and designing campaigns for already-existing games, so I think it would be a good use of my own time (but I don't have a mortgage/etc., my house is paid off so I can spend time diddling about with Infinity Engine modding and gaming in general. )
Ie coding is mostly time consuming, not so much difficult. I think that is the issue here. One could make a few areas with story and quests in half a year but that costs a pretty penny to develop. And it needs to fit the forgotten realms, be approved by publishers etc. If beamdog wanted to get some dlc mods out then they should have done it immediately from the very start of bgee release doing it every half year or so.
Breach of copyright? I'm pretty sure you can freely share mods as long as you don't charge for them, right?
Right, but a M'kiin, Voghiln, Glint, and Corwen mod without their portraits, soundsets, custom items, or AI would be pretty dull, right? And those resources are not mine to share.
As I've suggested before, Beamdog could use NWNEE to tie up loose ends related to SoD characters. They own the relevennt intellectual properties, It's a lot easier to create content for, you don't need implausible coincidences to get the characters to Amn, and it's easy enough to convert characters between different editions.
Breach of copyright? I'm pretty sure you can freely share mods as long as you don't charge for them, right?
Right, but a M'kiin, Voghiln, Glint, and Corwen mod without their portraits, soundsets, custom items, or AI would be pretty dull, right? And those resources are not mine to share.
There are DOZENS of mods that add npcs from BG1 into BG2, complete with portraits and soundsets. They are even linked on these forums. As long as you don't make money off of the resources, its fine.
Ie coding is mostly time consuming, not so much difficult. I think that is the issue here. One could make a few areas with story and quests in half a year but that costs a pretty penny to develop. And it needs to fit the forgotten realms, be approved by publishers etc. If beamdog wanted to get some dlc mods out then they should have done it immediately from the very start of bgee release doing it every half year or so.
So I still don't have a clear answer on, if they (or someone else with $ and resources) throws enough effort at the Infinity Engine to at least make it a *bit* more effective with both time and cost, could new content feasibly be made on a regular schedule or in a somewhat-effective way? Could the tools for making content be improved?
Siege, to me, is an excellent display of the IE, there's almost *too* much "stuff" packed into it. They honestly could have padded it out more, or even separated it into 2 different expansions, IMO. If I had to guess I would say they wanted to make it more "epic" but then ended up cramming every idea they had into what was there, maybe thinking they weren't going to have a second crack at it (i.e., Siege was going to be their last creation with the engine.)
How long did it take to develop SoD? While I've heard people say it's too short length-wise, the quality is certainly high enough. I personally would take things in slightly different directions here and there (a few less magical items, slightly lesser amounts of the bestiary and a bit more non-linearity, but again, I understand game devs have limited resources.)
I look at it like, again, Beamdog has the golden opportunity to further work with the Infinity Engine. Are we all essentially just okay with the IE being laid to rest? Until I played Siege and BG:EE again, I never thought twice about it, but seeing how good Siege is and what promise it shows, along with all the great mods I've been checking out, now I'm seriously second guessing it and wishing we had more IE content.
I have enough time of my own to pursue modding in the engine and messing around with it, but I'm not sure where to start. Is there a "making mods in the IE for dummies* video/article out there I could look at? While I have no talent with art assets (other than music I compose) I could certainly write something story/dialogue-wise and get into the nuts and bolts of coding given I can learn how to do it. I would really just like to spurn more investigation into the IE and considering it in the future. After playing Siege I'd hate to just see it essentially disappear now. And considering the sales of BG:EE/BG2:EE and the fanbase, there's still love there.
I'm going to buy a copy of Siege and give it away on my Steam group. Anyone have any spare BG:EE/BG2:EE/SoD keys they'd like to share to add to the pot?
The main question you have is whether the scope of v2.5 is sustaining or for future product creation. Noone knows that except for beamdog.
To me it makes little sense to provide (regular) upkeep for a product that you will phase out unless they want to bind customers for future new products.
Ie coding is mostly time consuming, not so much difficult. I think that is the issue here. One could make a few areas with story and quests in half a year but that costs a pretty penny to develop. And it needs to fit the forgotten realms, be approved by publishers etc. If beamdog wanted to get some dlc mods out then they should have done it immediately from the very start of bgee release doing it every half year or so.
So I still don't have a clear answer on, if they (or someone else with $ and resources) throws enough effort at the Infinity Engine to at least make it a *bit* more effective with both time and cost, could new content feasibly be made on a regular schedule or in a somewhat-effective way? Could the tools for making content be improved?
I would have thought the answer was pretty obvious by now. No. They can't.
As a case in point, look at the White March expansion to PoE. The PoE engine is much more powerful and easy to create for, but you know what? The White March officially made a net loss. (and it's really good).
How long did it take to develop SoD?
Around 4 years, so far as I can tell (and technically it's not finished, since there is supposed to be an iOS version). The numbers on the team would go up and down, but if you estimate around 12 people on $50,000 per year, that's a development cost of around $2.4 million. So at $20 a copy you need to shift over 100,000 copies before you start to see a profit.
I would say SoD was made because the devs love Baldur's Gate, not because they want to eat!
Ie coding is mostly time consuming, not so much difficult. I think that is the issue here. One could make a few areas with story and quests in half a year but that costs a pretty penny to develop. And it needs to fit the forgotten realms, be approved by publishers etc. If beamdog wanted to get some dlc mods out then they should have done it immediately from the very start of bgee release doing it every half year or so.
So I still don't have a clear answer on, if they (or someone else with $ and resources) throws enough effort at the Infinity Engine to at least make it a *bit* more effective with both time and cost, could new content feasibly be made on a regular schedule or in a somewhat-effective way? Could the tools for making content be improved?
I would have thought the answer was pretty obvious by now. No. They can't.
As a case in point, look at the White March expansion to PoE. The PoE engine is much more powerful and easy to create for, but you know what? The White March officially made a net loss. (and it's really good).
This is exactly why I have suggested, and will suggest again, that parts of a game of a still popular series could be "outsourced" to fans who will do it for free - because they already do make things for free. Like, they get a free a copy and their name mentioned when the credits roll, in return for turning over all their IP. I am sure many fans would agree to these terms... because they WANT to increase the replayability of their favorite series! 2000 people do their part and each one of them in return gets to play, for free, content generated by an additional 1999 people. Then, the devs gluing it all together will make no profit for the first "sold" 2000 units, but if 10 000 people buys the game, thats still 8000 copies worth of sale, with much less investment in terms of salaries etc. It's like communism, except that it works.
It's not like NWN, where there is a tileset to build maps with. If you aren't a professional artist it's unlikely you have the skills to hand draw an area map. And if you made a tool for map making it would lose the hand drawn quality of Baldur's Gate.
The main question you have is whether the scope of v2.5 is sustaining or for future product creation. Noone knows that except for beamdog.
To me it makes little sense to provide (regular) upkeep for a product that you will phase out unless they want to bind customers for future new products.
I would have hoped to have seen future IE products and content, that's the idea. But only Beamdog knows if they can do it or are interested in attempting it, true. My whole thing is just that I think there is a good opportunity there. They've already invested 4+ years into Siege, learning the engine and already developing for it, not to mention remastering all the IE games so far. They've got the goods to make it work IMO.
Ie coding is mostly time consuming, not so much difficult. I think that is the issue here. One could make a few areas with story and quests in half a year but that costs a pretty penny to develop. And it needs to fit the forgotten realms, be approved by publishers etc. If beamdog wanted to get some dlc mods out then they should have done it immediately from the very start of bgee release doing it every half year or so.
So I still don't have a clear answer on, if they (or someone else with $ and resources) throws enough effort at the Infinity Engine to at least make it a *bit* more effective with both time and cost, could new content feasibly be made on a regular schedule or in a somewhat-effective way? Could the tools for making content be improved?
I would have thought the answer was pretty obvious by now. No. They can't.
As a case in point, look at the White March expansion to PoE. The PoE engine is much more powerful and easy to create for, but you know what? The White March officially made a net loss. (and it's really good).
How long did it take to develop SoD?
Around 4 years, so far as I can tell (and technically it's not finished, since there is supposed to be an iOS version). The numbers on the team would go up and down, but if you estimate around 12 people on $50,000 per year, that's a development cost of around $2.4 million. So at $20 a copy you need to shift over 100,000 copies before you start to see a profit.
I would say SoD was made because the devs love Baldur's Gate, not because they want to eat!
And it's awesome that they loved it enough to do that. Who else would make an expansion to an almost-20 year old game? But Trent did say it was a success for them in a recent livestream. So some money must have been made.
And they can take that love and share it by making more new content in the IE.
Ie coding is mostly time consuming, not so much difficult. I think that is the issue here. One could make a few areas with story and quests in half a year but that costs a pretty penny to develop. And it needs to fit the forgotten realms, be approved by publishers etc. If beamdog wanted to get some dlc mods out then they should have done it immediately from the very start of bgee release doing it every half year or so.
So I still don't have a clear answer on, if they (or someone else with $ and resources) throws enough effort at the Infinity Engine to at least make it a *bit* more effective with both time and cost, could new content feasibly be made on a regular schedule or in a somewhat-effective way? Could the tools for making content be improved?
I would have thought the answer was pretty obvious by now. No. They can't.
As a case in point, look at the White March expansion to PoE. The PoE engine is much more powerful and easy to create for, but you know what? The White March officially made a net loss. (and it's really good).
This is exactly why I have suggested, and will suggest again, that parts of a game of a still popular series could be "outsourced" to fans who will do it for free - because they already do make things for free. Like, they get a free a copy and their name mentioned when the credits roll, in return for turning over all their IP. I am sure many fans would agree to these terms... because they WANT to increase the replayability of their favorite series! 2000 people do their part and each one of them in return gets to play, for free, content generated by an additional 1999 people. Then, the devs gluing it all together will make no profit for the first "sold" 2000 units, but if 10 000 people buys the game, thats still 8000 copies worth of sale, with much less investment in terms of salaries etc. It's like communism, except that it works.
Everyone is an artist now, everyone is a business, and everyone is quickly realizing their time is worth something. While I wouldn't be in favor of monetizing people's assets without recompense, some group-type-thing where devs can pull from assets made by the community and people get reimbursed fairly is what the goal should be. I think the people who can make this happen are still trying to figure out how to go about it, i.e. paid mods or some form of "modding/gaming communism." It's the future.
It's not like NWN, where there is a tileset to build maps with. If you aren't a professional artist it's unlikely you have the skills to hand draw an area map. And if you made a tool for map making it would lose the hand drawn quality of Baldur's Gate.
Why would it lose that quality, though, if you could theoretically pull from an asset pool of already-drawn, quality material? You can use tilesets with the IE, right? Or just get modders who can draw nice backgrounds as part of the loop (see above - gaming communism), or after your basic blocks are down have the talented artists spruce it up with their hand drawn touches (if I understand correctly that is mostly how the original BG was made, right?)
I've been saying for awhile that modders should be brought in a lot more, especially for RPGs. Obviously that is a bit tricky to say the least.
They're already invested in the IE, though, so that is why I think it's a good opportunity. They'd also be doing their part to preserve history, although that is a thankless (and likely money-less) job. And they'd be making me happy, which is really the most important thing in this whole discussion. Okay, a few other people would love new IE content, too, I'm sure.
Everyone is an artist now, everyone is a business, and everyone is quickly realizing their time is worth something. While I wouldn't be in favor of monetizing people's assets without recompense, some group-type-thing where devs can pull from assets made by the community and people get reimbursed fairly is what the goal should be. I think the people who can make this happen are still trying to figure out how to go about it, i.e. paid mods or some form of "modding/gaming communism." It's the future.
I cant imagine how that would work; if you pay modders by the hour, might as well have them in house so you can QC and direct their stuff, and pass it on so it doesnt stuck in limbo when someone gets a baby or something. If you pay on delivery, people will quickly work out they get dink by the hour and either drops it or put in minimal effort - if you pay people, their drive changes from self, uh, what is the word, aggrackition? to greed. If you cant pay decently, you need to appeal to other drives - psychology stuff. If you put microtransactions on every little thing as a model for bringing in revenue to the modders, you piss people off.
The advantage with community efforts is free labour, free flow of ideas, community training, and commaradery. The disadvantage is a thousand egos that need to petted along the fibers, general chaos for instance in the form of randomly cancelled project, insufferable Mary Sues that the creator considers a deadly sin to cut out from otherwise decent content. The people gluing it together needs to be despots that the community can agree upon that they abhor, yet still venerate, since, after all, without someone in charge nothing gets done.
Just throwing it out there, but there are canon junkies out there who aren't really into mods. I personally am on the fence with mods. I'll use ones that don't affect the story in my games, so things that are aesthetic or fixes to bugs that have been overlooked by developers generally. Many of us would like official new IE content still. The IE is great, and I would love new material for it.
I try to get into mods but it's difficult for me. Usually the people who write them are nowhere near as good as the original developers and the mods end up buggy, lorebreaking, or just dumb. Even the ones that are well done are hard for me to get into just because I know that none of it is canon. I just want to see how the story actually progresses (through official content) as opposed to what some random person on the internet is saying (through mods).
OK, I'm probably talking complete BS here because I don't know what I'm talking about but it's something that strikes me reading any threads like these. So please don't take this as a "statement" more as a query.
I understand the costs involved for Beamdog, I understand the work involved. But I don't understand this (to me) seeming obsession with bring out new versions, what it's 2.5 now?
If the resources being used to often update were redirected to new content, wouldn't that be better? Who is actually complaining that there are inconsistances in the way things work? Who was asking for a new UI rather than new content?
I'm still playing 1.3, it works very well far as I can tell. In so much as I can wander around playing the game and enjoy doing that. What would I need more than that for playing? So why is anyone working or money being spent on ironing out problems that don't give any problems?
@UnderstandMouseMagic the 2.x series has been the high point of releases for me at least. The new UI is an improvement over 1.3 (yeah, yeah, not exactly a popular opinion.). !.3 still had some bugs that NEEDED to be fixed (like casting luck removing all your proficiencies). Not to mention that every new update, the engine is opened up more and more for modding. Some amazing stuff has come out that couldn't be done before.
@UnderstandMouseMagic the 2.x series has been the high point of releases for me at least. The new UI is an improvement over 1.3 (yeah, yeah, not exactly a popular opinion.). !.3 still had some bugs that NEEDED to be fixed (like casting luck removing all your proficiencies). Not to mention that every new update, the engine is opened up more and more for modding. Some amazing stuff has come out that couldn't be done before.
But would you really swap the new UI for having new content? And bugs, does fixing bugs include complete overhauls that surely must cost a lot more money/resources?
Could you give me an example of some of the stuff that has come out because of the latest changes? And I'm not being difficult, but mainly what's seen as a must have for mods as far as I can tell is SCS and NPC project that have nothing to do with the updates. Plus if you ever look at threads entitled "what NPC mods would you recommend" they tend to always include mods that are years old.
My problem overall with the updates is that it is splitting the fan base. I'm playing the same game as you, but we are playing different versions. Also there is the question of what could be called the "heritage" of the games.
The games will never be as popular as when they first came out and looking at the dates of a lot of content/mods they were created in the years following that first flush. The creators have moved on understandably, and if it weren't for people like AstroBryGuy, some of the best mods simply wouldn't have been available to play even on 1.3. And now there's another version and another version ect. Who's doing all this work and is there consideration of those people?
Edited to add.
I maybe mistaken but aren't some of the mobile platforms still using 1.3? And there are no plans to update them? That's what I am talking about when I say splitting the fanbase, nobody even has a choice about it. Let alone those like myself who simply don't want to upgrade.
Comments
Mods should be complementary, not necessary.
Question: Would an EET installation mean that I could summon forth the SOD chars in BG2ee through the CluaConsole ? I mean, if they're in the game files because EET, I could, couldn't I ? (Obviously I have no no idea how EET works). That'd be enough for me. Wouldn't need much more than the characters themselves. I can overlook any jarring transitions or misplaced joining dialogue.
I understand Trent made his calculations, but that is not always the end-all-be-all. Did they factor in the fact that they (Beamdog) have the knowledge and know-how of using the engine, aka a great headstart, and that they can improve their tools over time and get to a point where they could churn out content and revitalize the IE mod community like they are doing with NWN? And how about the pretty huge amount of BG/IE fans that are still out there that would love new IE content? SoD could just be the tip of the iceberg. They could take the maps of BG1/SoD/BG2, work with the modders behind mods like the EET that combines them and they could add new campaigns in different cities on Toril, combining them into an epic world and campaign. Or just start fresh, a new BG-style trilogy where they keep adding content, like a "persistent Toril" in the IE.
Yeah, yeah, wishful thinking and all that. It always comes down to money. But there's potential there. If Beamdog had just remastered BG1/BG2 and not made SoD I wouldn't feel so strongly about it. But they already made a 20+ hour expansion in the Infinity Engine. Who else could do that right now? They've learned the engine, they're amazing with it (SoD is very good, using a lot of tricks and neat quirks of the engine. They show a marvelous grasp of it.) Maybe a couple modders have the know-how but they don't have the resources of BD to do something major like that, either.
Imagine new Forgotten Realms content made by Beamdog in the Infinity Engine. Or a better modding tool that makes user content easier to make for it. Yes, I know they're doing NWN but it's not the same. As much as I love NWN and all the great fanmade content, my heart still lies with the IE. They could maybe even create a new 2-game saga like BG, or even a trilogy (they could get *that* good with the tools, no doubt about it.) Siege shows great promise and I'd be sad for that to be the last of the IE we ever see again.
While I know nothing about coding or anything like that, if someone wants to help me get started with modding for the IE, dang it, I will have a look at it and try it. I'm good with computers but not on a coding/design level. I did design my first pen-and-paper RPG @ age 11 based on the Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together ruleset (this was 22 years ago, I'm old.
And if I did manage to do this, I would not be able to share it because it'd be a massive breach of copyright what with all the SOD soundsets and code that'd have to go into it, I think.
I'd like to learn to code just to be able to make my own content for IE. Some RPG developers also started by making mods and designing campaigns for already-existing games, so I think it would be a good use of my own time (but I don't have a mortgage/etc., my house is paid off so I can spend time diddling about with Infinity Engine modding and gaming in general.
If beamdog wanted to get some dlc mods out then they should have done it immediately from the very start of bgee release doing it every half year or so.
Siege, to me, is an excellent display of the IE, there's almost *too* much "stuff" packed into it. They honestly could have padded it out more, or even separated it into 2 different expansions, IMO. If I had to guess I would say they wanted to make it more "epic" but then ended up cramming every idea they had into what was there, maybe thinking they weren't going to have a second crack at it (i.e., Siege was going to be their last creation with the engine.)
How long did it take to develop SoD? While I've heard people say it's too short length-wise, the quality is certainly high enough. I personally would take things in slightly different directions here and there (a few less magical items, slightly lesser amounts of the bestiary and a bit more non-linearity, but again, I understand game devs have limited resources.)
I look at it like, again, Beamdog has the golden opportunity to further work with the Infinity Engine. Are we all essentially just okay with the IE being laid to rest? Until I played Siege and BG:EE again, I never thought twice about it, but seeing how good Siege is and what promise it shows, along with all the great mods I've been checking out, now I'm seriously second guessing it and wishing we had more IE content.
I have enough time of my own to pursue modding in the engine and messing around with it, but I'm not sure where to start. Is there a "making mods in the IE for dummies* video/article out there I could look at? While I have no talent with art assets (other than music I compose) I could certainly write something story/dialogue-wise and get into the nuts and bolts of coding given I can learn how to do it. I would really just like to spurn more investigation into the IE and considering it in the future. After playing Siege I'd hate to just see it essentially disappear now. And considering the sales of BG:EE/BG2:EE and the fanbase, there's still love there.
I'm going to buy a copy of Siege and give it away on my Steam group. Anyone have any spare BG:EE/BG2:EE/SoD keys they'd like to share to add to the pot?
To me it makes little sense to provide (regular) upkeep for a product that you will phase out unless they want to bind customers for future new products.
As a case in point, look at the White March expansion to PoE. The PoE engine is much more powerful and easy to create for, but you know what? The White March officially made a net loss. (and it's really good).
Around 4 years, so far as I can tell (and technically it's not finished, since there is supposed to be an iOS version). The numbers on the team would go up and down, but if you estimate around 12 people on $50,000 per year, that's a development cost of around $2.4 million. So at $20 a copy you need to shift over 100,000 copies before you start to see a profit.
I would say SoD was made because the devs love Baldur's Gate, not because they want to eat!
This is exactly why I have suggested, and will suggest again, that parts of a game of a still popular series could be "outsourced" to fans who will do it for free - because they already do make things for free. Like, they get a free a copy and their name mentioned when the credits roll, in return for turning over all their IP. I am sure many fans would agree to these terms... because they WANT to increase the replayability of their favorite series! 2000 people do their part and each one of them in return gets to play, for free, content generated by an additional 1999 people. Then, the devs gluing it all together will make no profit for the first "sold" 2000 units, but if 10 000 people buys the game, thats still 8000 copies worth of sale, with much less investment in terms of salaries etc. It's like communism, except that it works.
Isn't there some EE merchandise that beamdog is living off?
I would say SoD was made because the devs love Baldur's Gate, not because they want to eat!
And it's awesome that they loved it enough to do that. Who else would make an expansion to an almost-20 year old game? But Trent did say it was a success for them in a recent livestream. So some money must have been made.
And they can take that love and share it by making more new content in the IE.
Everyone is an artist now, everyone is a business, and everyone is quickly realizing their time is worth something. While I wouldn't be in favor of monetizing people's assets without recompense, some group-type-thing where devs can pull from assets made by the community and people get reimbursed fairly is what the goal should be. I think the people who can make this happen are still trying to figure out how to go about it, i.e. paid mods or some form of "modding/gaming communism." It's the future. Why would it lose that quality, though, if you could theoretically pull from an asset pool of already-drawn, quality material? You can use tilesets with the IE, right? Or just get modders who can draw nice backgrounds as part of the loop (see above - gaming communism), or after your basic blocks are down have the talented artists spruce it up with their hand drawn touches (if I understand correctly that is mostly how the original BG was made, right?)
I've been saying for awhile that modders should be brought in a lot more, especially for RPGs. Obviously that is a bit tricky to say the least.
They're already invested in the IE, though, so that is why I think it's a good opportunity. They'd also be doing their part to preserve history, although that is a thankless (and likely money-less) job. And they'd be making me happy, which is really the most important thing in this whole discussion.
As for merchandise, I cannot see it on the beamdog site itself or my phone at least cannot.
I cant imagine how that would work; if you pay modders by the hour, might as well have them in house so you can QC and direct their stuff, and pass it on so it doesnt stuck in limbo when someone gets a baby or something. If you pay on delivery, people will quickly work out they get dink by the hour and either drops it or put in minimal effort - if you pay people, their drive changes from self, uh, what is the word, aggrackition? to greed. If you cant pay decently, you need to appeal to other drives - psychology stuff. If you put microtransactions on every little thing as a model for bringing in revenue to the modders, you piss people off.
The advantage with community efforts is free labour, free flow of ideas, community training, and commaradery. The disadvantage is a thousand egos that need to petted along the fibers, general chaos for instance in the form of randomly cancelled project, insufferable Mary Sues that the creator considers a deadly sin to cut out from otherwise decent content. The people gluing it together needs to be despots that the community can agree upon that they abhor, yet still venerate, since, after all, without someone in charge nothing gets done.
I try to get into mods but it's difficult for me. Usually the people who write them are nowhere near as good as the original developers and the mods end up buggy, lorebreaking, or just dumb. Even the ones that are well done are hard for me to get into just because I know that none of it is canon. I just want to see how the story actually progresses (through official content) as opposed to what some random person on the internet is saying (through mods).
It's not a matter of drawing "nice" backgrounds. Infinity Engine maps use a bizarre system of false perspective.
Alrighty then, take care. Peace!
OK, I'm probably talking complete BS here because I don't know what I'm talking about but it's something that strikes me reading any threads like these. So please don't take this as a "statement" more as a query.
I understand the costs involved for Beamdog, I understand the work involved.
But I don't understand this (to me) seeming obsession with bring out new versions, what it's 2.5 now?
If the resources being used to often update were redirected to new content, wouldn't that be better?
Who is actually complaining that there are inconsistances in the way things work?
Who was asking for a new UI rather than new content?
I'm still playing 1.3, it works very well far as I can tell. In so much as I can wander around playing the game and enjoy doing that.
What would I need more than that for playing? So why is anyone working or money being spent on ironing out problems that don't give any problems?
And bugs, does fixing bugs include complete overhauls that surely must cost a lot more money/resources?
Could you give me an example of some of the stuff that has come out because of the latest changes?
And I'm not being difficult, but mainly what's seen as a must have for mods as far as I can tell is SCS and NPC project that have nothing to do with the updates.
Plus if you ever look at threads entitled "what NPC mods would you recommend" they tend to always include mods that are years old.
My problem overall with the updates is that it is splitting the fan base. I'm playing the same game as you, but we are playing different versions. Also there is the question of what could be called the "heritage" of the games.
The games will never be as popular as when they first came out and looking at the dates of a lot of content/mods they were created in the years following that first flush. The creators have moved on understandably, and if it weren't for people like AstroBryGuy, some of the best mods simply wouldn't have been available to play even on 1.3. And now there's another version and another version ect.
Who's doing all this work and is there consideration of those people?
Edited to add.
I maybe mistaken but aren't some of the mobile platforms still using 1.3? And there are no plans to update them? That's what I am talking about when I say splitting the fanbase, nobody even has a choice about it. Let alone those like myself who simply don't want to upgrade.