[Kit mod] Dwarven Defender Rebalancing
Arctodus
Member Posts: 992
Since I'm a bit foolish, I decided to follow @Raduziel's example and start a kit mod that nobody wants to play ! Yeah !
So, it is a rebalancing kit mod for the Dwarven Defender. I personally think that Defensive Stance, an ability that gives better DR than the Hardiness HLA with a sugary saving throws bonus on top AT LEVEL 1, miiight be a tad powergamey for my taste. But, you know, DWARVEN DEFENDER, the name is so cool that I'd like to use it. So, I decided to throw around a few ideas to rebalance the kit. First, I changed the kit's main theme : instead of big damage reduction, Dwarven Defenders get an increase to their AC and his/her allies. So, here's the kit rough design :
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DWARVEN DEFENDER: The Dwarven Defender is a formidable warrior that is reputed to be worth two soldiers of any other race. Trained extensively in the art of dwarven warfare, a handful of these stout fighters can render a defensive line all but unbreakable.
Advantages:
– May use Defensive Stance at will.
DEFENSIVE STANCE: Under Defensive Stance, the Dwarven Defender gains +2 to AC and 10% of damage reduction. However, since Defensive Stance requires full concentration on defense, the character receives a -1/2 attack per round penalty and a 50% movement rate penalty. At level 10, the bonus to AC becomes +3; the bonus goes up to +4 at level 17.
At level 8, an experienced Dwarven Defender learns to organize their allies to maximize their defensive position. Any ally standing within 3 feet of the Dwarven Defender will gain some of the AC bonus given by Defensive Stance. At level 8, allies will receive +1 bonus. The bonus to allies increases to +2 at level 10 and to +3 at level 17. Allies will not receive the bonus to damage reduction, but will not be affected by the attack per round penalty and the movement rate penalty.
– Hit Die: d12
Disadvantages:
– Race restricted to dwarf.
– May get to Grand Mastery (five slots) only in axes and war hammers.
- May not use range weapon.
– May not exceed Proficiency (one slot) in any other weapon.
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Initial thoughts about the kit mod :
So, here's a few thoughts.
1. First, the aura effect is borrowed from the Shield of the Falling Star +2 from IR. I thank @semiticgod for the idea ! The RP justification is that an experience DD not only can protect him/herself, but also can protect those around him/her by maximizing their defensive positions. The aura effect is strong at higher levels, but you have to be really close to the DD for it to be active. And, since being all grouped up can be a disadvantage - aka it makes you more vulnerable to AoE attacks - I think it's fairly balanced.
2. Also, the new Defensive Stance is a revised copy of the ability of the same name from Kit Revisions. The penalty to movement is increased from -2 to -4, but that's because I also kept the bonus to saving throws (so that the ability stays useful against mages). Since the skill is not as strong as it was before, I believe that, instead of setting the movement rate at 50%, giving an incremental penalty to movement rate makes the ability more useful. An hasted DD will move faster. Add in boots of speed and a DD movement rate under Defensive Stance won't be that bad.
3. I also decided to give the DD Grand Mastery in axes and war hammers. It's just that, to me, having a fighter kit specific to dwarves without giving them GM in their iconic weapons is borderline blasphemy. However, I believe that restricting them to proficiency in other weapons is an actual drawback compared to the original kit. If you consider the penalty to APR given by my modified Defensive Stance, using something else than axes or hammers will be less than optimal. It means that a DD have to give up on some flexibility.
4. Should I prevent the aura to stack with itself ? Should two level 19 DDs give -8 to AC to their nearby allies ? It's a bit much if you ask me. My gut feeling tells me to prevent that. Also, should I prevent the DD aura to stack with the Shield of the Falling Star aura in IR ? I'm not so sure about that one. It's such a niche combination that I'm more inclined to let it in. Up to -6 AC to allies at level 19 is definitively good, but then the DD gives up on better shield to do so. What do you guys and gals think ?
5. I let the small DR bonuses of the original kit in there. It does fit thematically that this kit would get some natural DR, like Barbarians. I'm pretty sure I'll leave this in.
6. Lastly, does this kit mod sound interesting ? Although I learned to fiddle with NI to be able to make all those changes, I know jack shit about WeiDU right now. The files are all ready, but is it worth my time to learn WeiDU to let that kit mod go public ?
I'm still in the decision process about that kit mod, so if you have any other suggestions, go ahead and tell me !
Edit : Changed the thac0 penalty to an APR penalty.
Edit 2 : First official description of the kit mod.
So, it is a rebalancing kit mod for the Dwarven Defender. I personally think that Defensive Stance, an ability that gives better DR than the Hardiness HLA with a sugary saving throws bonus on top AT LEVEL 1, miiight be a tad powergamey for my taste. But, you know, DWARVEN DEFENDER, the name is so cool that I'd like to use it. So, I decided to throw around a few ideas to rebalance the kit. First, I changed the kit's main theme : instead of big damage reduction, Dwarven Defenders get an increase to their AC and his/her allies. So, here's the kit rough design :
-----
DWARVEN DEFENDER: The Dwarven Defender is a formidable warrior that is reputed to be worth two soldiers of any other race. Trained extensively in the art of dwarven warfare, a handful of these stout fighters can render a defensive line all but unbreakable.
Advantages:
– May use Defensive Stance at will.
DEFENSIVE STANCE: Under Defensive Stance, the Dwarven Defender gains +2 to AC and 10% of damage reduction. However, since Defensive Stance requires full concentration on defense, the character receives a -1/2 attack per round penalty and a 50% movement rate penalty. At level 10, the bonus to AC becomes +3; the bonus goes up to +4 at level 17.
At level 8, an experienced Dwarven Defender learns to organize their allies to maximize their defensive position. Any ally standing within 3 feet of the Dwarven Defender will gain some of the AC bonus given by Defensive Stance. At level 8, allies will receive +1 bonus. The bonus to allies increases to +2 at level 10 and to +3 at level 17. Allies will not receive the bonus to damage reduction, but will not be affected by the attack per round penalty and the movement rate penalty.
– Hit Die: d12
Disadvantages:
– Race restricted to dwarf.
– May get to Grand Mastery (five slots) only in axes and war hammers.
- May not use range weapon.
– May not exceed Proficiency (one slot) in any other weapon.
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IMPORTANT NOTE
Since the Infinity Engine has a cap of -20 AC, the only way to bypass this limit is to have AC bonuses against types of damage (piercing, slashing, ...). So, when you activate Defensive Stance, the bonus to AC will only be shown under ARMOR CLASS MODIFIERS. Otherwise, if you have -18 AC and activate Defensive Stance at level 10, you will only get to -20 to AC, thus losing -1 AC into thin air.Initial thoughts about the kit mod :
So, here's a few thoughts.
1. First, the aura effect is borrowed from the Shield of the Falling Star +2 from IR. I thank @semiticgod for the idea ! The RP justification is that an experience DD not only can protect him/herself, but also can protect those around him/her by maximizing their defensive positions. The aura effect is strong at higher levels, but you have to be really close to the DD for it to be active. And, since being all grouped up can be a disadvantage - aka it makes you more vulnerable to AoE attacks - I think it's fairly balanced.
2. Also, the new Defensive Stance is a revised copy of the ability of the same name from Kit Revisions. The penalty to movement is increased from -2 to -4, but that's because I also kept the bonus to saving throws (so that the ability stays useful against mages). Since the skill is not as strong as it was before, I believe that, instead of setting the movement rate at 50%, giving an incremental penalty to movement rate makes the ability more useful. An hasted DD will move faster. Add in boots of speed and a DD movement rate under Defensive Stance won't be that bad.
3. I also decided to give the DD Grand Mastery in axes and war hammers. It's just that, to me, having a fighter kit specific to dwarves without giving them GM in their iconic weapons is borderline blasphemy. However, I believe that restricting them to proficiency in other weapons is an actual drawback compared to the original kit. If you consider the penalty to APR given by my modified Defensive Stance, using something else than axes or hammers will be less than optimal. It means that a DD have to give up on some flexibility.
4. Should I prevent the aura to stack with itself ? Should two level 19 DDs give -8 to AC to their nearby allies ? It's a bit much if you ask me. My gut feeling tells me to prevent that. Also, should I prevent the DD aura to stack with the Shield of the Falling Star aura in IR ? I'm not so sure about that one. It's such a niche combination that I'm more inclined to let it in. Up to -6 AC to allies at level 19 is definitively good, but then the DD gives up on better shield to do so. What do you guys and gals think ?
5. I let the small DR bonuses of the original kit in there. It does fit thematically that this kit would get some natural DR, like Barbarians. I'm pretty sure I'll leave this in.
6. Lastly, does this kit mod sound interesting ? Although I learned to fiddle with NI to be able to make all those changes, I know jack shit about WeiDU right now. The files are all ready, but is it worth my time to learn WeiDU to let that kit mod go public ?
I'm still in the decision process about that kit mod, so if you have any other suggestions, go ahead and tell me !
Edit : Changed the thac0 penalty to an APR penalty.
Edit 2 : First official description of the kit mod.
Post edited by Arctodus on
8
Comments
Other than that, I like the idea of the aura. Makes the DD into a kind of defensive general, rallying their party into a shieldwall and with their experience they make everyone fight better by directing them and guiding them into becoming one cohesive defensive unit. I like that concept.
now i dont know how the dwarven defender was implemented in 2nd edition, but damn, the one we have now is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY to good
so in the IWD mod i made, i changed the dwarven defender defensive stance to me more of it's 3rd edition counterpart, where instead of giving them an outrageous 50% damage resistance, i gave them a +2 constitution, +2 AC and maybe some STR? that is way more balanced, especially in a game like IWD where at level 20 your DD would have so much damage resistance that damage would actually HEAL him ( lol ? ) with the right items
It would make sense for Defensive Stance to grant immunity to wing buffet effects. It would also make sense for the Dwarven Defender to be unable to use missile weapons, since even a crossbow (with its dwarven themes) seems unfitting for a classic tank. Giving the Dwarven Defender some unique HLAs like a stronger aura would make it a bit cooler even if they didn't change the balance much. I think it would be good for a high-level defensive aura to add a little physical damage resistance to party members, since there are some ToB enemies that have near-95% hit rates even against critters with exceptionally low AC (AC isn't useless in ToB as some have claimed, but it's not as impactful in some fights).
Since I'll have to learn how to WeiDU before releasing it, it probably will take a while, but I will launch it eventually !
A unique HLA would be real nice. I'm not too sure about giving DR to an HLA aura, because there's enough DR in the game. Even a slight 10% could make a well equipped Paladin or Barbarian almost completely immune to physical attack. An AoE Wing Buffet immunity with an even higher AC bonus, like -6, would be nice though. Also, I plan to make Defensive Stance usable in conjunction with Hardiness. So, it will turn a DD into monsters in their own right at higher levels. That's also why giving DR to Defensive Stance would be too much.
Also, I somewhat don't really agree with the ranged attack restriction. It could make sense, but they still will be stuck with base proficiency and lower APR if they use Defensive Stance. A level 7 Dwarven Defender will be stuck at 1 APR with a sling under DS. Let say they won't be world beaters with range attack. GWW would bypass that restriction though, so it could make sense. I'll have to think about it.
I'm totally interested to know how to apply bonus AC that goes beyond the -20 cap. Otherwise, if AC bonus from the kit is wasted, it's goes against the idea of the kit.
@subtledoctor Can you confirm that, to bypass the -20 AC limit, you have to apply bonus vs types of damage, which would mean all other value than 0 for Opcode 0 ?
But you talked about the Skald's bard song; the DD aura does step on the toes of this skill. I haven't thought about it before you said it. It doesn't grant its immunities and doesn't have its range, but those two skills used in conjunction could give a whooping -8 to AC to teammates. That's just too much. So, I will nerf the aura to give only a flat -2 at level 8 with no progression thereafter. A bigger bonus will probably be given with a unique HLA. The DD mod in its current form doesn't have the damage output of neither a Kensai, Barbarian or a Berserker can have. It doesn't have the straight out immunities of a Berserker and a Barbarian either. Nor the speciality niche of the Wizard Slayer. It also doesn't have the flexibility of the kitless fighter, even though I agree that DDs are plain better than kitless fighters. The real asset a DD has with my mod is really good AC. Saving throws also, but who needs saving throws when you're immune to all the nastiest disablers, like Berserkers and Barbarians are ? (I will most probably nerf the ST bonus anyway.) And AC will only take you so far. It is good, but a crit will always bypass it. And you can only take so much crits from mind flayers, for example. You also got no protection from direct spell damage.
I value your input, because you're a longtime modder who has done an amazing job over the years. You have pushed the boundaries of IE moddability like never before. And all the thing you said are quite true, even moreso on a mod thread that aim to rebalance an arguably overpowered kit. They got me thinking and I reevaluated some things. However, there's another danger : balance creep. In an engine that let you have fighter/mages and sorcerers, where you can fight demons and planetars that can Vorpal you in one hit, where you can find a truckload of insanely good magical items, where a single failed saving throw against a disabler usually means death,... trying to balance it all is pretty much a Sisyphean enterprise.
My first aim is to rebalance the kit so I can play it in an IR/SR install, where the DR given to armors would make the original DD completely broken. Is this mod perfect ? Nope. It doesn't aim to be, because it also tries to make it thematically coherent and fun. Balance should be a holistic view that prevents an addition to completely break the game. I humbly think that the direction in which this mod is going respect that view.
You have to work harder if you want to fail like me.
The DD doesn't have natural DR anymore : he/she gets 10%, but only while under Defensive Stance. The bonus to saving throws was then scrapped.
The penalty to movement rate is back at a set -50%. This is THE drawback of the kit, its major weakness, so I had to keep it in.
The AC bonus to allies now follows a much simple formula = x-1. So, the bonus to allies now is +1 at level 8, +2 at 10 and +3 at 17.
All AC bonuses were added by types of damage, to make sure that these bonuses goes beyond the -20 hardcap.
All the files are ready, we're good to go. I'm gonna start to learn WeiDU with this framework.
I want to add one last thing : a unique HLA. My initial idea is a beefed up version of the Defensive Stance. It would give +5 to AC to the DD (+4 to allies), and render the DD and everyone under his aura immune to Wing Buffet and backstab. I think that HLA would be fun and tactical, particularly in ToB, where you can fight plenty dragons.
And then I bitched about how little XP I got for the fight.
After having tested the kit on a one-on-one against Sarevok, I decided to keep the bonus to AC by types of damage. Since I achieved a healthy -24 AC against him, it convinced me that it's the way to go. Otherwise, it will really be easy to have some AC thrown to garbage.
Also, don't forget that Defensive Stance is now fully compatible with Hardiness.
I still have an hla to implement, but I'm still unsure how. The skill itself is already designed though; it's a powered up version of Defensive Stance. Here it is :
- 15% DR
- +5 to AC (+4 to allies)
- immunity to backstab
- immunity to wing buffet
- 50% movement rate penalty
- -1/2 attack per round
I'm just not sure if I simply should give those bonuses directly to Defensive Stance at level 20 or something or make it a selectable hla. I'm leaning toward giving the bonuses straigth at level 20 now, because it's not a new skill, it's just a better version of a skill you already possess. If someone has an idea to improve this version of Defensive Stance, I'm more than open to suggestions !
I also want to add the immunities to backstab and wing buffet to allies when they're in range, because I think that these bonuses are very situationnal. Also, since the range of the aura is so small (it's melee range, really), everyone around you will not be pushed away by the dragon's breath, but they'll all have to take the damage that comes with it. You can't spread your team (which is usually an efficient way to deal with dragons) AND have the immunities. It adds a tactical choice. Also, I'm not too sure how backstab plays a big role when you're in hla territory. It's more like a freebie, but not that significant in my opinion.
For IWD, it's all a moot point because there are no hla there.
2) Yeah, you're right. A DD should have to burn an hla on that skill, I agree. Will do.
Also, the general thinking is that in ToB, AC becomes irrelevant. The point of this kit is to make AC relevant. But it has to be crazy good to have any impact. For instance, Yaga Shura has -5 thac0 in the unmodded game. And Abazigal -8 thac0, all of that without buffs. And there are plenty of critters like that. Do the math : you NEED crazy bonuses to AC to keep the stat relevant. This is also why a +4 bonus to allies... is not all that much in this context. Even more so when these guys hits like a truck when a crit will go through anyway. And Abazigal use things like Whirlwind, while Yaga use Enrage (lowering the thac0 even more). And AC doesn't help you when a mage cast Time Stop. Etc... You also have to be all grouped up to have the bonus and it's not always the best strat to stay like that - or even possible in some case. In the ToB context, I think that this hla is ok, but not op. One thing you just said here, about the different sources of AC bonuses, made me think. Maybe I could give the bonus to allies as a regular bonus (aka not by types of damage) ? Which means that if someone is already stacked at -20 AC, he won't gain more from the aura. Could be a decent way to balance the thing a bit. As far as I can tell, this is a very good aura. Casting speed and thac0 are very good bonuses in themselves.
Cheers mate,
a.