If the kits are not balanced then whats the point in bringing them in anyway?
It's worth mentioning that Diablo III initially had some overpowered class abilities but manage to remedy these issues though patches to keep the game balanced. BeamDog will do the same via patching and DLC.
Lol @ the Blade as worst kit. I only got 5 words for you: Defensive Spin plus Free Action.
If that combo works it seems like an oversight, and not really what was intended for the class, nevertheless all that will net you is a bonus to your AC for 24 seconds 3 times per day, and only effective once you find the ring of free action. You're still looking at taking penalties to all of your attacks for not being proficient in a weapon or not having 3 pips in two-weapon fighting for the majority of the game.
But Offensive Spin is still very good. I'd consider the Blade a definite improvement over the regular Bard class.
I'd agree that it is better than the regular bard class in BG2 but the low lore (one of my favorite bard features) and pick-pockets really hurts the Blade in BG1 for little pay off. Defensive Spin is akin to casting a mirror image spell, it's going to prevent you from getting hit for a while. I don't see that 3 of these per day makes the kit amazing. I personally like the Skald and Jester more. The Skald song is great in BG1 (but useless when you get improved bard song in ToB) and the Jester gets a decent offensive ability with no drawbacks other than replacing the bard song. The Blade just suffers from not enough proficiency points in the first game, in BG2 I would agree it is a fairly powerful kit.
OT but will the Avenger start with the extra shapeshifting abilities and the 6 mage spells? Because if he does, i'm pretty sure it will be the most powerful kit in BG:EE ..
I'm sure he will have access to the mage spells as they become available to him. I'd assume that the Avenger would gain the alternate shapeshifting forms when the Druid unlocks the shapeshifting abilities at 7th level. If not, there's really no reason to take the class.
That said, the new forms will definitely be quite powerful in the first game. I don't know that they will be game breakingly powerful though when compared to the Archer and Berserker kits.
OT but will the Avenger start with the extra shapeshifting abilities and the 6 mage spells? Because if he does, i'm pretty sure it will be the most powerful kit in BG:EE ..
We he gets those spells as part of his priest spells right. So he can't actually cast anything until he can cast that level of priest spell (so in BGEE he starts off with chromatic orb and can get up to chaos at a level 10 druid).
Not sure on the sword spider etc shapeshifts yet, but from the sounds of things they did not change it from being at level 1.
OT but will the Avenger start with the extra shapeshifting abilities and the 6 mage spells? Because if he does, i'm pretty sure it will be the most powerful kit in BG:EE ..
We he gets those spells as part of his priest spells right. So he can't actually cast anything until he can cast that level of priest spell (so in BGEE he starts off with chromatic orb and can get up to chaos at a level 10 druid).
Not sure on the sword spider etc shapeshifts yet, but from the sounds of things they did not change it from being at level 1.
It doesn't actually list a level that the alternate forms are gained (unlike the Shapeshifter which says it is available at 1st level with 1 use) so I think it's safe to assume you'd get them when your shapeshifting abilities are unlocked.
OT but will the Avenger start with the extra shapeshifting abilities and the 6 mage spells? Because if he does, i'm pretty sure it will be the most powerful kit in BG:EE ..
We he gets those spells as part of his priest spells right. So he can't actually cast anything until he can cast that level of priest spell (so in BGEE he starts off with chromatic orb and can get up to chaos at a level 10 druid).
Not sure on the sword spider etc shapeshifts yet, but from the sounds of things they did not change it from being at level 1.
It doesn't actually list a level that the alternate forms are gained (unlike the Shapeshifter which says it is available at 1st level with 1 use) so I think it's safe to assume you'd get them when your shapeshifting abilities are unlocked.
Could be. We will have to wait and see, but from my understanding the Totemic druid was the only druid kit they did anything about (nerfed the summons) so I still may still be right.
Any item or spell that confers Free Action will no longer allow a Blade to move while performing Defensive Spin, so the Spiderbane shouldn't work either.
Not Blade or Wizard Slayer by any stretch, the former can simply use bows or even throwing daggers (taking two-weapon style after) and the latter's stacking debuff ignores Mirror Image/Stoneskin. The only defense against the Wizard Slayer's debuff is weapon immunity, and mages with Mantle are pretty rare (perhaps even nonexistent?) in BG1.
That leaves the Beastmaster and the Stalker. The Beastmaster gets Find Familiar and a stealth bonus. The Stalker gets... a stealth bonus. Yep, if the old XP caps hold, that's practically all the Stalker ever gets in BG1, not counting penalties (can't use armor better than Studded Leather).
@Nuin : even with a familiar, the Beast Master can't use any metal armor or weapon... he's basically restricted to using staffs, clubs and what not to be good in BG1. A bit of health bonus won't give him that big of an advantage if a Beast Master can't even use a decent weapon for half of the game.
Stalker on the other hand could dual-wield two long swords at level one without huge penalties. And you get long swords +1 like gibberlings. And Varscona is also easily accessible. Being restricted to Leather Armor isn't that much of a big deal considering you can still use a Shield Amulet to protect yourself. Besides, Stalker is about stealth, not raw brutal force in the front lines.
@Nuin mages are easy to kill using dispel / remove magic and silence throughout the game. You are over rating the very limited usefulness of wizard slayers.
Also you have access to 100% spell resistance of you need it on every mage through mustard jelly polymorph - a fighter / mage polymorphed into a jelly or a sword spider does a better job of killing mages than a wizard slayer does (the sword spider venom completely stops most spells from being cast).
@Cheesebelly Except you're forgetting the Iron Plague, so investing in non-metallic weapons is actually is a plus in BG1. Long Bows, arguably the strongest weapon type in BG1, are also non-metallic. Note that ranged weapons are supreme in BG1, reason being that unless you're running around protected by high CON, heavy armor and a shield (or powerful spell buffs) there's a good chance you can die from a a single critical hit from a lot of things, especially if you play in Core Rules or higher difficulty. Technically the Beastmaster has no weaknesses in BG1, unless you were planning to turn him into a tanker.
@Mungri I don't know about your experience, but you don't actually start with Dispel or Remove Magic in BG1. It also appears that you haven't seen the trailer yet, because in some of those battles I honestly do not think you should be spending your time casting Dispel Magic/Remove Magic when the enemy mage is already in the process of retaliating with spells of their own. I personally am not willing to trade Dispel/Remove Magic casts for a Fireball or Hold Person, thanks.
You don't need them In BGEE, but then again you don't get the spells you mentioned in BG1 either - mantle and stoneskinm also wizard slayers in the BG1 level cap are even worse, in fact entirely useless.
As I said, you can morph into a jelly throughout the game and be completely immune to all spells. A wizard Slayer has zero advantages up to a wizard getting level 3-4 spells.
I'm not sure how to respond to that. Your playstyle, I guess. I'm not sure you read my post correctly, although I'm certainly not letting my casters waste their time in jelly form.
Wizard Slayers have practically zero disadvantages if you start with 18/18 or higher STR and DEX, except that they can't use the Boots of Speed much later on. As you may have noticed, BG1 isn't a exactly an epic-level campaign so the inability to use non-magic items except for magical weapons/armor isn't such a terrible loss in this setting. So basically in BG1 he's just another fighter except with caster-disabling attacks and innate MR.
@Pecca Was this added in a fix? It would balance the class out for BG:EE, if this was the case. But in the original BG2 Stalkers did not get Backstabx2 until level 9, and you can only gain experience until Ranger level 8 in the original BG+TotSC.
@elminster That's not what the in-game description states, nor does Valygar's stats reflect that in-game.
Perhaps you people are playing with a mod or tweakpack. If you want confirmation simply search the web or check reliable websites like Sorcerer's or Gamebanshee.
@Nuin : create a Stalker in ToB, he'll be level sixteen (x2 by description). Wait for Illasera to create her summon and backstab them - x3 damage. Vanilla, patched game. The description *is* wrong.
Comments
Ummm...it gets animal summons and can dual to a cleric?
Ok I'm done
But Offensive Spin is still very good. I'd consider the Blade a definite improvement over the regular Bard class.
That said, the new forms will definitely be quite powerful in the first game. I don't know that they will be game breakingly powerful though when compared to the Archer and Berserker kits.
Not sure on the sword spider etc shapeshifts yet, but from the sounds of things they did not change it from being at level 1.
"Spider's Bane"
3-12 Damage
8 Speed
10 Weight
THACO +2, Free Action (Spider Nest in second Cloakwood area)
Any item or spell that confers Free Action will no longer allow a Blade to move while performing Defensive Spin, so the Spiderbane shouldn't work either.
That leaves the Beastmaster and the Stalker. The Beastmaster gets Find Familiar and a stealth bonus. The Stalker gets... a stealth bonus. Yep, if the old XP caps hold, that's practically all the Stalker ever gets in BG1, not counting penalties (can't use armor better than Studded Leather).
Stalker on the other hand could dual-wield two long swords at level one without huge penalties. And you get long swords +1 like gibberlings. And Varscona is also easily accessible. Being restricted to Leather Armor isn't that much of a big deal considering you can still use a Shield Amulet to protect yourself. Besides, Stalker is about stealth, not raw brutal force in the front lines.
Also you have access to 100% spell resistance of you need it on every mage through mustard jelly polymorph - a fighter / mage polymorphed into a jelly or a sword spider does a better job of killing mages than a wizard slayer does (the sword spider venom completely stops most spells from being cast).
Except you're forgetting the Iron Plague, so investing in non-metallic weapons is actually is a plus in BG1. Long Bows, arguably the strongest weapon type in BG1, are also non-metallic.
Note that ranged weapons are supreme in BG1, reason being that unless you're running around protected by high CON, heavy armor and a shield (or powerful spell buffs) there's a good chance you can die from a a single critical hit from a lot of things, especially if you play in Core Rules or higher difficulty.
Technically the Beastmaster has no weaknesses in BG1, unless you were planning to turn him into a tanker.
@Mungri
I don't know about your experience, but you don't actually start with Dispel or Remove Magic in BG1. It also appears that you haven't seen the trailer yet, because in some of those battles I honestly do not think you should be spending your time casting Dispel Magic/Remove Magic when the enemy mage is already in the process of retaliating with spells of their own. I personally am not willing to trade Dispel/Remove Magic casts for a Fireball or Hold Person, thanks.
As I said, you can morph into a jelly throughout the game and be completely immune to all spells. A wizard Slayer has zero advantages up to a wizard getting level 3-4 spells.
Wizard Slayers have practically zero disadvantages if you start with 18/18 or higher STR and DEX, except that they can't use the Boots of Speed much later on. As you may have noticed, BG1 isn't a exactly an epic-level campaign so the inability to use non-magic items except for magical weapons/armor isn't such a terrible loss in this setting. So basically in BG1 he's just another fighter except with caster-disabling attacks and innate MR.
@Pecca
Was this added in a fix? It would balance the class out for BG:EE, if this was the case. But in the original BG2 Stalkers did not get Backstabx2 until level 9, and you can only gain experience until Ranger level 8 in the original BG+TotSC.
That's not what the in-game description states, nor does Valygar's stats reflect that in-game.
Perhaps you people are playing with a mod or tweakpack. If you want confirmation simply search the web or check reliable websites like Sorcerer's or Gamebanshee.