There are other mistakes as well. For example Jester's description says his song has save vs. spell with +4 bonus while it is actually only +2 bonus (which is much less sucky).
There are other mistakes as well. For example Jester's description says his song has save vs. spell with +4 bonus while it is actually only +2 bonus (which is much less sucky).
Yea on that one I think the new manual got it wrong. I'll have to converse with others on that.
@Pecca@elminster The jester's song was changed by an official patch so it got better with levels, you might wanna confirm whether the original (purely SoA) penalty was +4. Or it might be better so imply change the description so it reflects the changes introduced in the patch, unless you want to include both an SoA and ToB-only subsection.
Anyway that puts this this thread in a difficult position. The Beastmaster has no serious cons in BG1, and he gets a familiar (bonus HP, a fast moving bait-character, and the Fairy Dragon has useful spells).
@Rohndil There -was- an official patch that supposedly tweaked the Wizard Slayer kit a bit, but I never bothered to remember the specifics. Perhaps it's been fixed.
Swashbuckler is one of the most OP kits for the AC, hit and damage bonuses. If you never intend to backstab, its the best thief kit to use, and is fantastic for dual classing from at level 10. You get -3 AC, +2 hit and +2 damage on your second class once the swashbuckler levels are recovered.
@elminster Yes it is. Just not a serious one, unless someone tries to play the Beastmaster as a dual-wielding melee tanker. Ideally he should have no pressing need to fight in melee range since he can be just as deadly an archer as Kivan.
Edit: You were on the right track - normal rangers can use heavy (metal) armor, while Beastmasters cannot.
@Nuin my being initially right (and then second guessing myself) is especially hilarious given I made the thread on manual corrections and wrote it down in it
I mean it still is a restriction. He is not as good of a melee tank then a regular ranger (if you ever felt like playing a tank as a ranger) because he only gets studded leather. Whether or not it is a serious con entirely depends on your play style.
@elminster@nuin I actually asked this last night and didn't get an answer, is ankheg mail considered metal in regards to class restrictions? If it isn't that can vastly change some of these kits "ratings".
I'm not sure how to respond to that. Your playstyle, I guess. I'm not sure you read my post correctly, although I'm certainly not letting my casters waste their time in jelly form.
Wizard Slayers have practically zero disadvantages if you start with 18/18 or higher STR and DEX, except that they can't use the Boots of Speed much later on. As you may have noticed, BG1 isn't a exactly an epic-level campaign so the inability to use non-magic items except for magical weapons/armor isn't such a terrible loss in this setting. So basically in BG1 he's just another fighter except with caster-disabling attacks and innate MR.
@elminster@nuin I actually asked this last night and didn't get an answer, is ankheg mail considered metal in regards to class restrictions? If it isn't that can vastly change some of these kits "ratings".
Druids (other than the shapeshifter) can use them. So I'm assuming rangers should be able to.
Pure thief is the worst. totally worthless in battles if you don't dual. Wizard slayer, assassin, shapeshifter, and beast master come close as second tier.
@Tanthalas Classicism! My ranger brothers! We have been baboozald! Run A'mok!......I forget the rest. Regardless thanks for the information. The worst kit is still shapeshifter, imho.
By chance I stumbled upon an AAR in another community where the author had beaten BG2 and TOB with tactics mod(famous mod increasing difficulty) + diablo mod(another mod that increases difficulty) at insane difficulty with those 4 worst classes. That guy also beat BG1 solo at insane difficulty with a fallen paladin, with its stats edited to all 5. (5 str, 5 con, 5 dex etc.) only using fists and no weapons. That was the funniest AAR i've ever read. He died 56 times beating BG1.
I am interested in hearing peoples opinions on this. When EE goes out I want to try something that will present a challenge. Tough all classes and kits can become strong if played well I want to start with something totally messed up. Wizard slayer is out as there are too much restrictions on that one for me.
Beastmaster is interesting. Any other ideas?
Well...both of those are quite alright in BG1. There's a +3 quarterstaff in the game, easily-accessible, so the Beastmaster's disadvantage isn't much of one. Similarly, Wizard Slayers can still pull on a full plate and swing a shiny sword with fighter HP/thac0, so it's worse than a normal Fighter generally but still good enough (edit - for BG:EE!).
Monks and mages should be the most challenging. That early game period sucks a lot. Mid/late game, every kit/class is fine really.
BTW, been years since I played the original Shapeshifter but if it wasn't balanced, doesn't it sort of break the game almost as much as the Spirit Animals would have? Werewolf form at level 1?
I am interested in hearing peoples opinions on this. When EE goes out I want to try something that will present a challenge. Tough all classes and kits can become strong if played well I want to start with something totally messed up. Wizard slayer is out as there are too much restrictions on that one for me.
Beastmaster is interesting. Any other ideas?
Well...both of those are quite alright in BG1. There's a +3 quarterstaff in the game, easily-accessible, so the Beastmaster's disadvantage isn't much of one. Similarly, Wizard Slayers can still pull on a full plate and swing a shiny sword with fighter HP/thac0, so it's worse than a normal Fighter generally but still good enough (edit - for BG:EE!).
Monks and mages should be the most challenging. That early game period sucks a lot. Mid/late game, every kit/class is fine really.
BTW, been years since I played the original Shapeshifter but if it wasn't balanced, doesn't it sort of break the game almost as much as the Spirit Animals would have? Werewolf form at level 1?
Now granted I think (and I could be wrong on this) their non-greater form gets two attacks a round, but while the 20% set magic resistance they do get is nice they also have to deal with 1d6 attack and the fact that they can't cast spells in form. Plus no armour means they have to rely on that form (which they get only 1 use/day at level 1) or barkskin for up-close protection. They form also hits as a regular weapon, so some things are going to be immune to their efforts in game.
That guy also beat BG1 solo at insane difficulty with a fallen paladin, with its stats edited to all 5. (5 str, 5 con, 5 dex etc.) only using fists and no weapons.
What about mage kits? Diviner (no conjuration/summoning spells -> miss all the creature summons and a lot of great dmg spells) Enchanter (no Evocation -> missing a lot of dmg spells and sequencer) or Invoker (no conj/summ and no ench/charm, so no summoning, miss out dmg, no charm, sleep, confiusion, mallision, hold)
I don't think any of these worth those plus spells. Except maybe if you have another mage who can cast them and efficiently distribute the spells between them...
That guy also beat BG1 solo at insane difficulty with a fallen paladin, with its stats edited to all 5. (5 str, 5 con, 5 dex etc.) only using fists and no weapons.
He didn't use a mod. He used fists against any 'human' opponents so he doesn't commit a killing, as long as the game didn't force him to kill someone to progress the story. However, he used a sword against monsters.
it's still quite a challenge I wouldn't dare trying. He finished the final battle with bare fists. Sarevok dies if you knock him cold in the vanilla game. I didn't even know one could boost multiple stats as far as upto 25 using potions.
Compare it to the monk: Wizard Slayer: - Wear armor - 10% spell failure per hit - 1% magic res/level - Weapon mastery - d10 hit die - CON bonus (for being a warrior class)
Monk: - No armor, but -1 AC at first lvl, and -1 every 2 levels (at lvl8, end of BG, u end up with AC 5, which is like chain mail) - 3% magic res/level (downside is, that you only get that from lvl 14, but on that lvl you already have 42%, while WS has only 13% with same exp. So not in BGEE, but later +2% magic res/lvl over the WS) - monks fist actually become better than most weapons by the end (d20+4) - better saving throws (except for breath) - +2 spell save bonus - Stunning blow - movement speed bonus (no need for boots of speed) - By end of BGEE: immune to diseases and slow, -1 speed factor, lay on hands ability - AC bonus against missiles - After BGEE xp cap: chance to kill on 1 hit (once a day), immune to poison, charm, non-magical weapons, -1 more speed factor - May have less HP than the WS (d8), but can use potions...
So WS only has a bit more HP, the spell failure and a slightly better AC. While monk has... Well, all the above. The WS might be good against caster with a lot of HP. With mages, if you can hit them, I think they are dead already
I love my wizard slayer. I played him from level 1 in bg1tutu all the way to finishing bg2 and expansion. He comeptely mopped the floors with his grandmastery long swords and dual wielding. He was consistenly the highest dps in my party and I had no problems not using magic items.
If anyone can not make wizard slayer work I question their understanding of DnD mechanics and if they have actually even tried one themselves.
Comments
You could have simply said that in the beginning you know, instead of attacking the Beastmaster's cons.
A long time ago he couldn't even drink certain potions, if I remember correctly.
I never liked the swashbuckler.
Anyway that puts this this thread in a difficult position. The Beastmaster has no serious cons in BG1, and he gets a familiar (bonus HP, a fast moving bait-character, and the Fairy Dragon has useful spells).
@Rohndil There -was- an official patch that supposedly tweaked the Wizard Slayer kit a bit, but I never bothered to remember the specifics. Perhaps it's been fixed.
Yes it is. Just not a serious one, unless someone tries to play the Beastmaster as a dual-wielding melee tanker. Ideally he should have no pressing need to fight in melee range since he can be just as deadly an archer as Kivan.
Edit: You were on the right track - normal rangers can use heavy (metal) armor, while Beastmasters cannot.
Druids being able to use Ankheg mail is a Druid thing.
Wizard slayer, assassin, shapeshifter, and beast master come close as second tier.
Classicism! My ranger brothers! We have been baboozald! Run A'mok!......I forget the rest. Regardless thanks for the information. The worst kit is still shapeshifter, imho.
Nothing is impossible.
edit: only used fists against humans.
Monks and mages should be the most challenging. That early game period sucks a lot. Mid/late game, every kit/class is fine really.
BTW, been years since I played the original Shapeshifter but if it wasn't balanced, doesn't it sort of break the game almost as much as the Spirit Animals would have? Werewolf form at level 1?
Diviner (no conjuration/summoning spells -> miss all the creature summons and a lot of great dmg spells)
Enchanter (no Evocation -> missing a lot of dmg spells and sequencer)
or Invoker (no conj/summ and no ench/charm, so no summoning, miss out dmg, no charm, sleep, confiusion, mallision, hold)
I don't think any of these worth those plus spells. Except maybe if you have another mage who can cast them and efficiently distribute the spells between them...
BGEE is using the BG2 engine, so Invokers are only barred from one school, not two (can't remember which at the moment).
I went back to check.
He didn't use a mod. He used fists against any 'human' opponents so he doesn't commit a killing, as long as the game didn't force him to kill someone to progress the story.
However, he used a sword against monsters.
it's still quite a challenge I wouldn't dare trying. He finished the final battle with bare fists. Sarevok dies if you knock him cold in the vanilla game. I didn't even know one could boost multiple stats as far as upto 25 using potions.
Wizard Slayer:
- Wear armor
- 10% spell failure per hit
- 1% magic res/level
- Weapon mastery
- d10 hit die
- CON bonus (for being a warrior class)
Monk:
- No armor, but -1 AC at first lvl, and -1 every 2 levels (at lvl8, end of BG, u end up with AC 5, which is like chain mail)
- 3% magic res/level (downside is, that you only get that from lvl 14, but on that lvl you already have 42%, while WS has only 13% with same exp. So not in BGEE, but later +2% magic res/lvl over the WS)
- monks fist actually become better than most weapons by the end (d20+4)
- better saving throws (except for breath)
- +2 spell save bonus
- Stunning blow
- movement speed bonus (no need for boots of speed)
- By end of BGEE: immune to diseases and slow, -1 speed factor, lay on hands ability
- AC bonus against missiles
- After BGEE xp cap: chance to kill on 1 hit (once a day), immune to poison, charm, non-magical weapons, -1 more speed factor
- May have less HP than the WS (d8), but can use potions...
So WS only has a bit more HP, the spell failure and a slightly better AC. While monk has... Well, all the above.
The WS might be good against caster with a lot of HP. With mages, if you can hit them, I think they are dead already
(OFF: is it only me or does it happen to others too that your heart skips a beat when you see that the great "Tanthalas mentioned you in a comment"?)
If anyone can not make wizard slayer work I question their understanding of DnD mechanics and if they have actually even tried one themselves.