When I first saw the title of this thread, I wondered if it was related to the Romance discussion. :P
I find this to be highly amusing....
on topic:
Like others have said, Beamdog's people aren't idiots. They know a monk would be a tad under powered in BGEE so I'm sure they have compensated somehow...if not..../shrug free meat shield.
I really don't think this bears discussion. If you're playing to have the best, strongest, most elite party in the game, you really don't need any new NPCs - you'll already have established a party you're comfortable with for that purpose. Or better yet - if you don't care about NPC interactivity and stuff, just play a multiplayer game and design your entire party. Rasaad will bring something of his own to the game. His own personality, his own quests, and his own class. If they conflict with your style choice, don't take him. But at the very least don't knock him 'till you've tried him, right?
I really don't think this bears discussion. If you're playing to have the best, strongest, most elite party in the game, you really don't need any new NPCs - you'll already have established a party you're comfortable with for that purpose. Or better yet - if you don't care about NPC interactivity and stuff, just play a multiplayer game and design your entire party. Rasaad will bring something of his own to the game. His own personality, his own quests, and his own class. If they conflict with your style choice, don't take him. But at the very least don't knock him 'till you've tried him, right?
There is a pretty big difference between playing the "best, strongest, most elite party" and not wanting to use characters that are worthless in combat. I also said that I was going to play Rasaad no matter what because I am interested in his backstory and "interactivity and stuff." but, once that has been experienced what incentive does someone have to take him for another playthrough if he requires constant babysitting? Maybe his personality will be so good you will want to overlook the fact that he requires constant babysitting to not explode into pink mist when a particularly strong fart wafts in his direction, I don't know, it's all speculation at this point. But, the point of this thread is whether or not he will suck mechanically.
I'm also not knocking him, since I have not tried him. I'm saying that the monk class is bad at low levels, and asking what the community thinks beamdog will do to get around this obstacle or what some ideas the community might have are to minimize his weakness and make him a decent member of the group. It's obviously all speculation at this point, none of us have the game yet.
With regards to him being useless against foes that require a magical weapon to hit - a monk's fists eventually count as magical weapons when they reach a certain level.
With regards to him being useless against foes that require a magical weapon to hit - a monk's fists eventually count as magical weapons when they reach a certain level.
This is true and that level is 9. Monks will cap out at 8th level with the 161000 XP cap in BG:EE meaning they cannot hurt creatures immune to normal weapons with their fists and must rely on using a weapon for certain encounters. Doing so makes the monk miss out on most of the classes abilities during these encounters.
I've played a monk in real life PnP, and I just used a +2 Nuchako when I fought enemies that couldn't be hurt by normal weapons. He's still faster than any other class, gets better I initiative, great DEX and get access to more attacks per round faster than any other class.
Granted, we played with the 3.5 AD&D rules, so there's bound to be some differences, but I kicked ass pretty much from the start in that campaign. When I reached lvl 13 or so, I was even more powerful than our Mage in some respects. Nothing much could hit me, and I had access to a lot of great power moves and attacks per round gave a great advantage.
@Bytebrain, 3.5 edition rules allow the monk to use his class abilities with certain monk weapons, like kamas, and apparently some others in pnp.
No such luck in 2nd edition. Equipping a weapon will turn off all the monk's special abilities. Rasaad will not be able to harm creatures immune to normal weapons, unless he equips a magic weapon and fights like an armorless cleric with one attack per round, or unless the devs have written in a special weapon or ability that we don't know about yet.
@Bytebrain, 3.5 edition rules allow the monk to use his class abilities with certain monk weapons, like kamas, and apparently some others in pnp.
No such luck in 2nd edition. Equipping a weapon will turn off all the monk's special abilities. Rasaad will not be able to harm creatures immune to normal weapons, unless he equips a magic weapon and fights like an armorless cleric with one attack per round, or unless the devs have written in a special weapon or ability that we don't know about yet.
Ahh... Well, let's hope they've done something then, I was planning on rolling a monk when the game is released...
@Bytebrain, 3.5 edition rules allow the monk to use his class abilities with certain monk weapons, like kamas, and apparently some others in pnp.
No such luck in 2nd edition. Equipping a weapon will turn off all the monk's special abilities. Rasaad will not be able to harm creatures immune to normal weapons, unless he equips a magic weapon and fights like an armorless cleric with one attack per round, or unless the devs have written in a special weapon or ability that we don't know about yet.
I still can't imagine that Overhaul is going to put in an NPC, give him back story, give him a monk kit, but make him totally and utterly useless. Unless you are meant to have a magic weapon in his second weapon slot at all times, even then it would still be like having a gimped fighter wearing a tutu. The only way I can see them deliberately doing this is to make us all hate him in BG:EE only to have him come into his own in BG:EE 2 like all monks do.
Sorry what I meant is, I'm not sure how to say it. Okay, you know how fighters have 4 "slots" for weapons? So you can put four different weapons in each of those slots, as long as they are compatible with his offhand, so assuming that a monk has at least 2 of those said slots, you could keep one free for his fists, and keep a magical weapon in the other.
Monks aren't that bad at low levels. They just can't take a hit. Thac0 is decent, base APR is pretty absurd and Stunning Blow is godly even at level 1.
I'm cool with having an NPC difficult to utilize. By the level cap (which for Monks really should be 9 instead of just 8. Cleric tables are so freakin' stupid) you'll have a ton of AP and pretty good AC despite not having any armor.
Give him a sling until you have someone who can effectively tank, and then you can use him or any monk similar to a combat-oriented rogue.
Monks aren't that bad at low levels. They just can't take a hit. Thac0 is decent, base APR is pretty absurd and Stunning Blow is godly even at level 1.
I'm cool with having an NPC difficult to utilize. By the level cap (which for Monks really should be 9 instead of just 8. Cleric tables are so freakin' stupid) you'll have a ton of AP and pretty good AC despite not having any armor.
Give him a sling until you have someone who can effectively tank, and then you can use him or any monk similar to a combat-oriented rogue.
By 8th level he could have roughly a -2 AC if he starts with 18 dex and you give him a ring of protection +2. This is about as good as it gets since bracers of armor apparently do not stack with the monk AC bonus. It's good but not great. Most other frontliners will have more AC than this, the average hanging around -4. His best asset will be his number of attacks per round. I'm fairly sure that the monk THAC0 is equal to priest THAC0 so his attack rolls wont be stellar so he'll hit less reliably than a fighter but have more attacks to equal it out. In the end I'm sure he will be decent but from levels 1-5 or so he could be quite terrible. We'll have to see.
@Bytebrain - I'm glad someone enjoyed playing the 3.5 monk class. It is largely considered the weakest class in that iteration of DnD, even falling under the Bard in terms of power. In the end they were a mish-mash of quirky abilities that were typically reproduced better and at earlier levels by a wizard or cleric.
wow...i don't really know what i did different, but I've played a monk in tutu as well, and had no complaints at low levels, was a lot of fun...sure he couldn't run straight into a pitched battle beyond his limits but definitely didn't feel i had to babysit him at all, he, Imoen, montaron and xzar made an effective team straight out of candlekeep. wasn't overwhelmingly easy, of course, but i didn't want it to be, a group of first level characters should struggle to stay alive when they're not used to adventuring.
He has to suck, because he is the cosmic balance counterweight to the awesomebadassery that is DORN. It's unfortunate, but you'd rather not see the universe explode, would you?
Monks aren't that bad at low levels. They just can't take a hit. Thac0 is decent, base APR is pretty absurd and Stunning Blow is godly even at level 1.
I'm cool with having an NPC difficult to utilize. By the level cap (which for Monks really should be 9 instead of just 8. Cleric tables are so freakin' stupid) you'll have a ton of AP and pretty good AC despite not having any armor.
Give him a sling until you have someone who can effectively tank, and then you can use him or any monk similar to a combat-oriented rogue.
By 8th level he could have roughly a -2 AC if he starts with 18 dex and you give him a ring of protection +2. This is about as good as it gets since bracers of armor apparently do not stack with the monk AC bonus. It's good but not great. Most other frontliners will have more AC than this, the average hanging around -4. His best asset will be his number of attacks per round. I'm fairly sure that the monk THAC0 is equal to priest THAC0 so his attack rolls wont be stellar so he'll hit less reliably than a fighter but have more attacks to equal it out. In the end I'm sure he will be decent but from levels 1-5 or so he could be quite terrible. We'll have to see.
@Bytebrain - I'm glad someone enjoyed playing the 3.5 monk class. It is largely considered the weakest class in that iteration of DnD, even falling under the Bard in terms of power. In the end they were a mish-mash of quirky abilities that were typically reproduced better and at earlier levels by a wizard or cleric.
I don't understand the comparison with wizards and clerics at all.. I admit, I used a ton of feats on my char, and in the end I specialized and became a Drunken Master, which had special abilities in itself, but the powers the monk gain in 3.5 is almost purely face to face melee combat oriented.
There was no spells or healing powers, at least not as I recall.
But he did kick ass, so I never considered him a weak class at all. My PnP partners didn't consider him weak either, in fact, there was some discussion on whether he was too powerful in comparison with their chars. We had a Sorceror, Ranger and Thief besides me as Monk.
In DnD 3.5 a wizard could cast polymorph and turn into a Cloud Giant and get a strength score of 35, then with Tenser's Transformation gain hit points and base attack bonuses equal to a fighter. In this form a wizard would consistantly do far more damage than a monk not to mention he would maul the monk in a duel. Those aren't even 9th level spells.
Given Dorn's powerlevel, I would find it very surprising if Rasad outright sucked. Given other NPCs (Xan's Moonblade, Edwin's Amulet, Nalia's Ring) I kinda expect him to start with some sort of magical item to offset some of his early level disadvantages. My guess is some sort of braces that help his AC/provide a bit of extra damage/attack bonus (a la Gauntlets of Crushing)/make his fists count as magic weapons. This seems right inline with the already mentioned NPC specific items. Or maybe he has a special ability to, say, cast the mage spell armor kinda like Branwen's spiritual hammer. The point is that we've already seen similar "work arounds" to buff up otherwise substandard NPCs in BG1
Another possibility is that he automatically starts at a higher level (perhaps level 5?) even if you are a lower level when you pick him up. Or, perhaps least likely, but the solution I like the best, upon completing the quest associated with him, he gets a large (roughly a levels worth, maybe even have it scale so its always a level worth whenever you do the quest) personal experience bonus. So that yes you do have to babysit him for a bit, but only while you are helping him to complete his quest, than he starts to pull his own weight.
Comments
on topic:
Like others have said, Beamdog's people aren't idiots. They know a monk would be a tad under powered in BGEE so I'm sure they have compensated somehow...if not..../shrug free meat shield.
Or better yet - if you don't care about NPC interactivity and stuff, just play a multiplayer game and design your entire party.
Rasaad will bring something of his own to the game. His own personality, his own quests, and his own class. If they conflict with your style choice, don't take him. But at the very least don't knock him 'till you've tried him, right?
I'm also not knocking him, since I have not tried him. I'm saying that the monk class is bad at low levels, and asking what the community thinks beamdog will do to get around this obstacle or what some ideas the community might have are to minimize his weakness and make him a decent member of the group. It's obviously all speculation at this point, none of us have the game yet.
Monks can use weapons right?
He's still faster than any other class, gets better I initiative, great DEX and get access to more attacks per round faster than any other class.
Granted, we played with the 3.5 AD&D rules, so there's bound to be some differences, but I kicked ass pretty much from the start in that campaign.
When I reached lvl 13 or so, I was even more powerful than our Mage in some respects. Nothing much could hit me, and I had access to a lot of great power moves and attacks per round gave a great advantage.
No such luck in 2nd edition. Equipping a weapon will turn off all the monk's special abilities. Rasaad will not be able to harm creatures immune to normal weapons, unless he equips a magic weapon and fights like an armorless cleric with one attack per round, or unless the devs have written in a special weapon or ability that we don't know about yet.
Well, with that username, one would assume you're being ironic..
He sure didn't suck in AD&D 3.5... :-)
Monks can't dual-wield.
Sorry what I meant is, I'm not sure how to say it. Okay, you know how fighters have 4 "slots" for weapons? So you can put four different weapons in each of those slots, as long as they are compatible with his offhand, so assuming that a monk has at least 2 of those said slots, you could keep one free for his fists, and keep a magical weapon in the other.
I'm cool with having an NPC difficult to utilize. By the level cap (which for Monks really should be 9 instead of just 8. Cleric tables are so freakin' stupid) you'll have a ton of AP and pretty good AC despite not having any armor.
Give him a sling until you have someone who can effectively tank, and then you can use him or any monk similar to a combat-oriented rogue.
@Bytebrain - I'm glad someone enjoyed playing the 3.5 monk class. It is largely considered the weakest class in that iteration of DnD, even falling under the Bard in terms of power. In the end they were a mish-mash of quirky abilities that were typically reproduced better and at earlier levels by a wizard or cleric.
I admit, I used a ton of feats on my char, and in the end I specialized and became a Drunken Master, which had special abilities in itself, but the powers the monk gain in 3.5 is almost purely face to face melee combat oriented.
There was no spells or healing powers, at least not as I recall.
But he did kick ass, so I never considered him a weak class at all. My PnP partners didn't consider him weak either, in fact, there was some discussion on whether he was too powerful in comparison with their chars. We had a Sorceror, Ranger and Thief besides me as Monk.
Another possibility is that he automatically starts at a higher level (perhaps level 5?) even if you are a lower level when you pick him up. Or, perhaps least likely, but the solution I like the best, upon completing the quest associated with him, he gets a large (roughly a levels worth, maybe even have it scale so its always a level worth whenever you do the quest) personal experience bonus. So that yes you do have to babysit him for a bit, but only while you are helping him to complete his quest, than he starts to pull his own weight.