Their fists eventually count as magic weapons. But probably not before the XP Cap in BG1 cuts them off.
And Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm, as far as I am aware, don't make their fists count as magical weapons, they just give them special effects.
So giving him a Special Ability that makes his fists magic a couple times a day for free would make him tons more effective than a normal monk at low levels because he could use it to hit Magic Only creatures without switching to a crappy weapon.
In DnD 3.5 a wizard could cast polymorph and turn into a Cloud Giant and get a strength score of 35, then with Tenser's Transformation gain hit points and base attack bonuses equal to a fighter. In this form a wizard would consistantly do far more damage than a monk not to mention he would maul the monk in a duel. Those aren't even 9th level spells.
He would have to hit him first to inflict any damage.. :-) That's the biggest advantage of the monk. He's very, very nimble and very hard to hit...
He would have to hit him first to inflict any damage.. :-) That's the biggest advantage of the monk. He's very, very nimble and very hard to hit...
Actually Monks on average have far worse AC than a Fighter would simply because of the economics of magic items. For example, +4 Fullplate will grant a +12 Armor bonus for 1650GP more than bracers of armor +4 which only grant a +4 armor bonus to the monk. 1650GP is less than a +1 ring of protection, but we'll say the monk got his on discount, so for the same price you can have +12 armor bonus or +5 bonus to AC. The other main sources for Monk AC is increasing his wisdom or dexterity and stat increasing items are WAY more expensive than enhancement bonuses on armor and shields.
With the above example of the Wizard that particular wizard would have to be level 17 to become a cloud giant so with tensers transformation he'd have a base attack of +17/+12/+7/+2. 35 Strength gives a +12 strength bonus to hit so his total attack modifier would be +29/+24/+19/+14. So if he were to attack The Terrasque (the strongest monster in the Monster Manual; a challenge for 4 level 20 characters, that's 3 levels higher than the wizard is) he'd hit 70% of the time with his first attack, this is without any magic items taken into account, mind you. He will hit your monk. I promise.
If I were looking to equip a monk in a normal D&D game I'd look for something that let me cast spells like armor or shield x times a day. "Okay, my monk has Armor, Shield, and Blur up. Now try and hit him." hehe
He would have to hit him first to inflict any damage.. :-) That's the biggest advantage of the monk. He's very, very nimble and very hard to hit...
Actually Monks on average have far worse AC than a Fighter would simply because of the economics of magic items. For example, +4 Fullplate will grant a +12 Armor bonus for 1650GP more than bracers of armor +4 which only grant a +4 armor bonus to the monk. 1650GP is less than a +1 ring of protection, but we'll say the monk got his on discount, so for the same price you can have +12 armor bonus or +5 bonus to AC. The other main sources for Monk AC is increasing his wisdom or dexterity and stat increasing items are WAY more expensive than enhancement bonuses on armor and shields.
With the above example of the Wizard that particular wizard would have to be level 17 to become a cloud giant so with tensers transformation he'd have a base attack of +17/+12/+7/+2. 35 Strength gives a +12 strength bonus to hit so his total attack modifier would be +29/+24/+19/+14. So if he were to attack The Terrasque (the strongest monster in the Monster Manual; a challenge for 4 level 20 characters, that's 3 levels higher than the wizard is) he'd hit 70% of the time with his first attack, this is without any magic items taken into account, mind you. He will hit your monk. I promise.
My comment was more tongue in cheek.. :-) I wouldn't want to go into deep stats discussion with you, you're clearly more well-read and informed about the stats and rules than I am . :-) it's been quite a while since I played PnP, sadly, and sometimes my head start spinning when reading posts like yours with stats all over the place... :-)
All I tried to convey with my previous posts, was that the monk wasn't such a weak char in 3.5 edition, and quite fun to play. I do intend to either play as a monk or recruit Rasaad in my first play through of BG:EE.
Well, as I said before, I'm glad that someone enjoyed the monk class in 3.5, you are indeed among the minority there. I have played in and DMed many games in 3.5 and now pathfinder (where the monk got a much needed boost in power, while still not great it isn't godawful). I'm sorry to hear that you haven't been able to play pnp for some time, I have many fond memories that will last through the years from sitting around a table with my friends and rolling some dice.
The reason why the wizard and cleric eventually grew to outshine every other class is because in every splat book released there were always new spells added to the game and the more options that are added to the game the more possibilities there are for people to come up with ways to exploit the rules. My example above was tame compared to what some people will try and pull off, and I only used core spells.
I too plan to recruit Rasaad for my first playthrough. It simply remains to be seen whether or not I'll recruit him for any other playthrough. If you end up playing a monk yourself you should come on here and tell us what tips and tricks you used to keep yourself alive and/or effective in the early game.
Well, as I said before, I'm glad that someone enjoyed the monk class in 3.5, you are indeed among the minority there. I have played in and DMed many games in 3.5 and now pathfinder (where the monk got a much needed boost in power, while still not great it isn't godawful). I'm sorry to hear that you haven't been able to play pnp for some time, I have many fond memories that will last through the years from sitting around a table with my friends and rolling some dice.
The reason why the wizard and cleric eventually grew to outshine every other class is because in every splat book released there were always new spells added to the game and the more options that are added to the game the more possibilities there are for people to come up with ways to exploit the rules. My example above was tame compared to what some people will try and pull off, and I only used core spells.
I too plan to recruit Rasaad for my first playthrough. It simply remains to be seen whether or not I'll recruit him for any other playthrough. If you end up playing a monk yourself you should come on here and tell us what tips and tricks you used to keep yourself alive and/or effective in the early game.
Yeah, I do miss the PnP days. I still see the guys I used to play with, but with growing responsibilities/families/demanding jobs etc. it's all but impossible to get a campaign up and running,
We had an absolute great DM, who really knew how to concuct some great storylines with flexibility and lots of ethical and moral dilemmas. There were many sessions where there wasn't a single fight.
I'll be sure to come back to this thread and discuss further once I've got BG:EE up and running with a monk. :-)
'm fairly sure that the monk THAC0 is equal to priest THAC0 so his attack rolls wont be stellar so he'll hit less reliably than a fighter but have more attacks to equal it out.
In the BG games at least, Monks have the same THAC0 progression of the warrior classes.
'm fairly sure that the monk THAC0 is equal to priest THAC0 so his attack rolls wont be stellar so he'll hit less reliably than a fighter but have more attacks to equal it out.
In the BG games at least, Monks have the same THAC0 progression of the warrior classes.
Indeed, though a Monk can't take proficiencies for his fist attacks
If I were looking to equip a monk in a normal D&D game I'd look for something that let me cast spells like armor or shield x times a day. "Okay, my monk has Armor, Shield, and Blur up. Now try and hit him." hehe
Its a class that becomes brokenly good at higher levels, you just have to deal with it or not take him. You have to baby sit mages a lot more then monks at low levels unless your resting constantly.
Also, monks don't just attack with their fists, this is a common misconception for some reason I have never understood. They don't get proficiencies for hand to hand because they don't need them, though I suppose they could allow it and have the magical bonus add as well instead of just determining what they can damage, though that would mean that the base damage would never increase to balance it.
Personally I would prefer the former, and allow monks to gain extra monk attacks with monk type weapon's, staffs etc, but since people seem to have this belief that monks always fight with their fists for some insane reason, the staff wielding monk is something I have never been able to play.
Hopefully he has something to make up for it. If not... at least he's sexy?
I like it when the most interesting NPCs (ex:dialog) are not the most useful ones in a battle, that way we must make choices, easier fights/bring that wierd guy along...
@Sharn That is true for other editions of DnD but monks gain all of their bonuses when only fighting unarmed in BG. You CAN use a weapon but you will use it quite poorly compared to using your fists.
I'd also disagree that mages require more babysitting since they can still be effective and cast spells but stay in the backfield and fire away with a sling or darts when low/out of spells. A Monk who only stays in the backfield using darts or slings isn't being effective at what the class does; melee dps.
remember a tiny bit of detail: a shield amulet is available very early on in BG - as in Naskhel Carnival early. that should drop his AC by a nice 6 is I remember correctly, and can be recharged with the good old "sell to merchant - buy it back" trick.
although, even with this, I'm sadly gonna take a wild guess at: yes, at least in the first few levels.
I see myself using Rasaad in a manner similar to the BGII summoning items.
PC: Alright, that should do for everyone. Oh, Rasaad... Um... Go fight those guys... over there. Yeah. Rasaad: Those ones over there? The heavily armed ones with what looks like full plate mail as well? PC: Yep. Just think how bogged down they'll be by those big sharp swords they're carrying. You don't even have armor! While it would probably only take one hit for them to end your existence permanently, I'm sure you'll be fast enough to dodge each and every swing they make. Probably. Rasaad: I also couldn't help but notice that there happen to be four of them and only one of me... PC: One for each of your limbs eh? Just use that mighty Monk mojo you're always going on about! Rasaad: I remain unconvinced of the wisdom of this plan... PC: Nonsense, go get 'em big guy! It's all you! Later Cleric: That'll be 100 gold for a revival. PC: Half a moment, we have a frequent shopper card around here somewhere.
On top of being able to Find Traps and Lay on Hands, I also find it's a plus that I don't have to worry about spending a lot of gold on armor and weapons; the gold will be concentrated on better gear for the rest of the group.
I'm actually going to make my main a Monk and pick up Rasaad as well, just for having an entirely new playthrough experience. Worst case: I kick Rasaad after his quest.
I'm personally having a lot of fun playing monks in PnP. Not because of their power, but because, on a roleplay perspective, they're actually, you know... fun. But looking at some of the previous comments, it seems like all you guys do is dungeon crawling.
Anyway, back to the topic. I was just told that, in the manual, monks are mentioned to get their +4 fists at level 20, instead of 25 at the moment. Of course it's still way out of BG1's scope, but do you think it's a typo, or that will actually happen? There's also no mention of their ToB-level bonus (the MR cap at level 26, the slower AC progression, etc) which is weird.
No! Monks always kick major butt. Don't believe me? Watch a kung-fu flick from the 70's ( Bruce Lee movies don't count cause he's no joke ( Chuck Norris ) ).
Comments
Their fists eventually count as magic weapons. But probably not before the XP Cap in BG1 cuts them off.
And Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm, as far as I am aware, don't make their fists count as magical weapons, they just give them special effects.
So giving him a Special Ability that makes his fists magic a couple times a day for free would make him tons more effective than a normal monk at low levels because he could use it to hit Magic Only creatures without switching to a crappy weapon.
That's the biggest advantage of the monk. He's very, very nimble and very hard to hit...
With the above example of the Wizard that particular wizard would have to be level 17 to become a cloud giant so with tensers transformation he'd have a base attack of +17/+12/+7/+2. 35 Strength gives a +12 strength bonus to hit so his total attack modifier would be +29/+24/+19/+14. So if he were to attack The Terrasque (the strongest monster in the Monster Manual; a challenge for 4 level 20 characters, that's 3 levels higher than the wizard is) he'd hit 70% of the time with his first attack, this is without any magic items taken into account, mind you. He will hit your monk. I promise.
it's been quite a while since I played PnP, sadly, and sometimes my head start spinning when reading posts like yours with stats all over the place... :-)
All I tried to convey with my previous posts, was that the monk wasn't such a weak char in 3.5 edition, and quite fun to play.
I do intend to either play as a monk or recruit Rasaad in my first play through of BG:EE.
The reason why the wizard and cleric eventually grew to outshine every other class is because in every splat book released there were always new spells added to the game and the more options that are added to the game the more possibilities there are for people to come up with ways to exploit the rules. My example above was tame compared to what some people will try and pull off, and I only used core spells.
I too plan to recruit Rasaad for my first playthrough. It simply remains to be seen whether or not I'll recruit him for any other playthrough. If you end up playing a monk yourself you should come on here and tell us what tips and tricks you used to keep yourself alive and/or effective in the early game.
I still see the guys I used to play with, but with growing responsibilities/families/demanding jobs etc. it's all but impossible to get a campaign up and running,
We had an absolute great DM, who really knew how to concuct some great storylines with flexibility and lots of ethical and moral dilemmas. There were many sessions where there wasn't a single fight.
I'll be sure to come back to this thread and discuss further once I've got BG:EE up and running with a monk. :-)
Also, monks don't just attack with their fists, this is a common misconception for some reason I have never understood. They don't get proficiencies for hand to hand because they don't need them, though I suppose they could allow it and have the magical bonus add as well instead of just determining what they can damage, though that would mean that the base damage would never increase to balance it.
Personally I would prefer the former, and allow monks to gain extra monk attacks with monk type weapon's, staffs etc, but since people seem to have this belief that monks always fight with their fists for some insane reason, the staff wielding monk is something I have never been able to play.
That is true for other editions of DnD but monks gain all of their bonuses when only fighting unarmed in BG. You CAN use a weapon but you will use it quite poorly compared to using your fists.
I'd also disagree that mages require more babysitting since they can still be effective and cast spells but stay in the backfield and fire away with a sling or darts when low/out of spells. A Monk who only stays in the backfield using darts or slings isn't being effective at what the class does; melee dps.
that should drop his AC by a nice 6 is I remember correctly, and can be recharged with the good old "sell to merchant - buy it back" trick.
although, even with this, I'm sadly gonna take a wild guess at: yes, at least in the first few levels.
PC: Alright, that should do for everyone. Oh, Rasaad... Um... Go fight those guys... over there. Yeah.
Rasaad: Those ones over there? The heavily armed ones with what looks like full plate mail as well?
PC: Yep. Just think how bogged down they'll be by those big sharp swords they're carrying. You don't even have armor! While it would probably only take one hit for them to end your existence permanently, I'm sure you'll be fast enough to dodge each and every swing they make. Probably.
Rasaad: I also couldn't help but notice that there happen to be four of them and only one of me...
PC: One for each of your limbs eh? Just use that mighty Monk mojo you're always going on about!
Rasaad: I remain unconvinced of the wisdom of this plan...
PC: Nonsense, go get 'em big guy! It's all you!
Later
Cleric: That'll be 100 gold for a revival.
PC: Half a moment, we have a frequent shopper card around here somewhere.
On top of being able to Find Traps and Lay on Hands, I also find it's a plus that I don't have to worry about spending a lot of gold on armor and weapons; the gold will be concentrated on better gear for the rest of the group.
I'm actually going to make my main a Monk and pick up Rasaad as well, just for having an entirely new playthrough experience.
Worst case: I kick Rasaad after his quest.
Anyway, back to the topic. I was just told that, in the manual, monks are mentioned to get their +4 fists at level 20, instead of 25 at the moment. Of course it's still way out of BG1's scope, but do you think it's a typo, or that will actually happen? There's also no mention of their ToB-level bonus (the MR cap at level 26, the slower AC progression, etc) which is weird.
That +4 at level 20 was my mistake.
The in-game description will have the correct level at which Monks get +4 fists.
But take care..... i heard he likes FISTING! ^^
other than me stealing the first part, I though it was pretty funny ; )