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[mod in progress] Will to Power,* a 2E-ish psionics system

subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,353
edited August 4 in General Modding
* (working title. Also under consideration: "the Will and the Way," "the Ardent Mind," "the Mind's Eye," and "Time-Life Books: Mysteries of the Unknown.")

I'm creating this thread for discussion about the psionics mod I'm working on. It started as a single component in Might & Guile, adding a rogue kit that could use psionic powers as feats. I have since improved the reliability of the way psionics abilities work, and greatly expanded the number of abilities available for use. Now I am breaking it off as an independent mod.

The mod is not ready yet; there's still a hefty 'to-do' list:
- create all abilities (97% done)
- write descriptions of each ability (95% done)
- set up system to apply under-the-hood stats to keep track of which powers you have learned (done!)
- set up spell files to use abilities in-game (done!)
- make Beamdog enable target mode 7 for item abilities (done! :tongue: )
- set up dialogue for learning new abilities (done!)
- organize installation of mod components (95% done)
- code integration with the Might & Guile feat system so that warriors and rogues can be "wild talents" (15% done)
- proper readme (50% done)
- modify strongholds (0% done)
- integrate "psionic" abilities of illithids and Planar Sphere halflings etc. (0% done)

Here is the description of the way psionics works, and the classes and abilities involved:

THE WtP PSIONICS SYSTEM

In the Forgotten Realms you may commonly find magic users, who use words and gestures to harness, control, and shape external energies that infuse the world. A psion, on the other hand, learns to harness, control, and shape the energy that infuses his own being. The ability to utilize that energy results from a combination of long study, intense meditation, and rigorous physical conditioning. Through that training, a psion develops the ability to expand his mind past the limits of his body. With experience, he may perform great feats of strength, manipulate energy, move objects, or touch others' minds. While this seems supernatural, for a skilled psion it is no different from the way he uses his mind to lift his arm, or move his legs to walk.

Of course, hard running and heavy lifting take a toll on the body, and psionics is no different. Just as muscles contain stores of chemical energy that can be depleted, only to be recharged by rest and eating, so do psionic powers temporarily utilize stored biological energy. In-game, this is represented by a temporary reduction in your maximum hit points.
- Example 1: a low-level psion with 10 hit points has been struck by a dagger, and now has 8 left. He decides to put some space between himself and his attacker, using Project Force. The stated cost of Project Force is 4 max hp. The target is knocked down and flung away; the psion is reduced from 8/10 hp to 4/6 hp. He will regenerate 1 hp every 12 seconds, until he is back to 8/10 hp 8 rounds after using Project Force.
- Example 2: that same psion next faces an Enchanter and wants to protect himself against mental attacks by raising a Mind Ward. The stated cost of Mind Ward is 4 max hp, just like Project Force, but Mind Ward is a maintainable power. The psion can raise the Ward and his hp will drop to 4/6; and they will stay that way as long as he maintains the protection. After the magical threat is gone he can cancel the Mind Ward, and from that point his max hp will be restored over 8 rounds.

That's right: there are no PSPs in this mod. I couldn't figure out a good way to do it. Moreover, 2E-style PSPs only regenerate when you rest (sort of), so playing a psion with PSPs would be not much different from playing a sorcerer. Using health and allowing it to regenerate makes the gameplay associated with the class more unique and interesting compared to the vanilla classes. (It also makes game balance difficult to get just right, so I will happily listen to critiques from players about how this actually works in the game.) The convenient thing is, your hp go up as you level, which means your store of psionic power will automatically go up as well. Now, psionic effects will tend to be noticeably weaker than the magic spells used by a spellcaster of a similar level. Likewise, psionic attacks may be weaker than the melee attacks of a warrior of a similar level. However, a psion has a flexibility unmatched by warrior or wizard.

- Compared to the warriors, a psion may create pseudo-superhuman effects to react to the circumstances: hardening his skin to resist physical damage, or shoving dangerous enemies out of weapon range, or superheating the edge of his weapon to make it more deadly.

- Compared to spellcasters, a psion is not bound by the limits of memorization. As long as his body can continue to recharge his stores of energy, he can use his abilities indefinitely. And while it takes several seconds for spellcasters to clear their magical aura and cast again, a psion may use powers at will, only slightly slowed down by the mental fatigue of using them in rapid succession. (In game terms, psionic powers have a 'casting time' of 1 and behave as if the player has Improved Alacrity active; but the use of each power induces a +2 penalty to casting time for one round, so their use become progressively slower if you use them quickly.)

THE WtP PSIONIC CLASSES

There are three psionic classes in this mod. They all fall under the broad term "psion" which I use to mean any character focused on the use of psionics.

The Psionicist is in the Rogue class. This kit focuses on learning and intellectual prowess; to a Psionicist, psychic powers are a skill to master through study and practice, not much different from sleight of hand or picking locks. A psionicist has the following characteristics:
- May learn one psionic ability per level
- HD: 1d6+1 per level
- Attacks: as a rogue
- Reduced thief skill development (12 points per level)
- Backstab multiplier limited to x2
- Cannot dual-class to a spellcasting class

The Soulblade combines meditation and the study of psionics with intense physical conditioning, understanding that the body is a battery that powers his abilities. A Soulblade has the following characteristics:
- May learn one psionic ability every two levels
- HD: 1d8 per level
- Attacks: as a warrior
- Limited to Mastery (3 stars) with weapons
- Limited to light/medium armors
- Cannot dual-class to a spellcasting class

- The Psypher is an ascetic monk who achieves a near-mystical union of body and mind. A Psypher has the following characteristics:
- May learn one psionic ability per level
- HD: 1d8 per level
- Attacks: as a monk, including monk unarmed attacks
- Does not gain the magical abilities or resistance of other monks
- Cannot dual-class

Post edited by subtledoctor on
NoobaccaMantis37AquadrizztHalcyonArdulGrammarsaladinethUOLegacy
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Comments

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,353
    edited August 4
    On to the nitty-gritty:

    THE WtP PSIONIC POWERS

    All psions begin with knowledge of the most basic psychic powers, one in each of the five disciplines of Telepathy, Telekinesis, Pyrokinesis, Biokinesis, and Clairsentience:
    - Mind Thrust
    The target must save or fall unconscious for 1-2 rounds, and be gorggy and slow for one round afterward.
    - Project Force
    The target takes 1d6 nonlethal damage and must save or be knocked down and thrown back 5-10 feet.
    - Static Discharge
    The psion's hand becomes electrically charged. A touch attack does 1d8 lightning damage, and the target must save or be stunned for a few seconds.
    - Adrenaline Rush
    The psion's Strength increases by 2 points and he gains 1/2 attack per round, for 4 rounds. Afterward, the psion is fatigued with -4 to Strength for 3 rounds.
    - Object Reading
    Once per day, the psion may determine the history and nature of an item.

    From 2nd level, psions may begin to progress to greater specialization in each discipline, learning low-level powers called "devotions." Each discipline has three devotions. Once a psion has learned every devotion in one discipline, he may begin to learn the more advanced powers, called "Sciences." Each discipline also has three sciences. Here are all of the normal abilities in each disipline:

    Telepathy:
    - Id Insinuation
    The target must save or be driven into a confused and panicked state for 3 rounds.
    - Mind Ward
    The psions is protected from the next Fear, Sleep, Charm, or Hold effect directed at him.
    - Ego Repair
    The psion reaches out to the mind of an ally affected by fear, sleep, intoxication, feeblemindedness, confusion, or berserk frenzy, and heals the condition.
    - Domination
    The target must save or be mentally controlled by the psion. After two rounds of such control, the target can make a save each round to break it. After ten rounds, if the control has not already be broken, it ends.
    - Intellect Fortress
    The psion is protected from Fear, Sleep, Charm, Hold, Confusion, Feeblemind, Stun, and Maze effects as long as this ability is maintained.
    - Psychic Crush
    The target must save or be stunned for 3 rounds and take 4d4 stunning damage.

    Telekinesis:
    - Immobilize
    The target must save or be frozen in place. After two rounds, the target may make another saving throw each round to end the effect.
    - Inertial Barrier
    The psion is enveloped by a bubble that gives him 25% resistance to fire, acid, magic, and slashing damage, and a -2 AC bonus and 40% resistance to crushing and missile attacks.
    - Repulsion
    Each round this power is maintained, enemied within 5 feet of the psion must save or be thrown back 5-10 feet.
    - Psychic Blade
    The psions summons a "blade" of pure telekinetic force to his hand. The blade does 1d4 slashing damage and 1d4 stunning damage, and is wielded as if with Mastery.
    - Free Action
    While maintained, the psion is unaffected by any hostile effect that inhibits his movement.
    - Mass Immobilize
    Every enemy within 20 feet of the psion must save of be frozen in place. After two rounds, those who failed their save may make another saving throw each round to break the effect.

    Pyrokinesis:
    - Molecular Agitation
    The psion superheats a small area at the leading edge of his weapon, resulting in 1d4 heat damage being added to each melee attack.
    - Energy Dispersion
    The psion has 60% resistance to energy-based effects (fire, cold, electric and magic damage).
    - Psychic Combustion
    The psion spontaneously ignites an area roughly 5 feet in diameter, causing 4d4 fire damage per round to any beings in that location.
    - Solar Flash
    The psion triggers a blinding flash of light, causing 2d4 points of heat damage and forcing enemies to save or be blinded for 4 rounds. Undead take double damage.
    - Freezing Precipitation
    [as the Ice Storm spell, with reduced damage]
    - Generate Lightning
    [as the Chain Lightning spell, with reduced damage]

    Biokinesis:
    - Body Purification
    This ability instantly cures the psion of the effects of poison or disease, including blindness and deafness.
    - Bioregeneration
    The psion regenrates 1 hit point per round while the effect is maintained.
    - Poison Simulation
    [per the Poison priest spell... touch range]
    - Absorb Infliction
    The psion can absorb the effect of wounds, poison, disease, and similar effects from another person. The psion then purges the effects from his own body. This process causes severe strain, increasing the psion's fatigue until he rests.
    - Camouflage
    While maintained, the psion gains a bonus to stealth skills and benefits as if from Improved Invisibility: he is visible to enemies, but has a -4 bonus to AC and cannot be targeted by spells. (Note: true Seeing and similar magic will penetrate this effect.)
    - Carapace
    The psion's skin becomes bark-like, hard and brittle and with a high rate of growth. He benefits from a 2-point bonus to AC, and the carapace absorbs one physical attack each round.

    Clairsentience:
    - Insightful Strike
    The next strike made by the psion will be a critical hit.
    - Instinctive Foresight
    The psion is more likely to succeed at skill checks, and takes reduced damage from spells, and does more damage on average with weapon attacks.
    - Farsight
    The psion may see another nearby area outside the normal sight range, as if viewing it from atop a wall.
    - Contingent Eventuality
    The psion may set certain psionic abilities to occur automatically under certain conditions (like triggering Body Purification when poisoned, etc.).
    - Danger Sense
    While maintained, the psion has a 2-point AC bonus, a 20% bonus to the Find Traps skill, cannot be backstabbed, and has a chance to dodge certain effects from spells and environmental hazards.
    - Life Detection
    The psion may detect any hidden or invisible enemies nearby and target them with psionic abilities.
    - Precognition
    When affected by certain spell attacks that may be dodged, the psion is afforded a chance to make a saving throw vs. Breath Weapon to avoid the spell altogether.

    Once a psion has learned every power in a discipline, and as long as he is 13th level or higher, he may learn the "High Science" of that discipline. Furthermore, if a psion has learned every devotion and science in two disciplines, he may learn a cross-discipline or "metapsionic" high science. The fifteen high sciences are:

    - Telepathy: Tower of Iron Will
    All allies withing 10 feet of the psion are protected as if by an Intellect Fortress
    - Telekinesis: Seismic Vibrations
    [per the Earthquake priest spell]
    - Pyrokinesis: Energy Storm
    [per the Storm of Vengeance priest HLA, but instead of acid/poison damage, a chance to briefly blind enemies each round]
    - Biokinesis: Feral Transformation
    The psion can take on beastly characteristics, transforming into something similar to a Greater Werewolf.
    - Clairsentience: Clairvoyant Channeling
    While maintained, the psion's abilities are not bound by the range of his vision.
    - Telepathy + Telekinesis: Ultrablast
    All enemies within 30' must save or be thrown backward and stunned and dealt 4d6 stunning damage.
    - Telepathy + Pyrokinesis: Energy Construct
    The psion creates a humanoid construct of pure fiery energy and imparts it with some rudimentary, temporary, sentience, enabling it to move and attack the psion's enemies.
    - Telepathy + Biokinesis: Fission
    The psion creates a lesser double of himself, which can act independently but is generally under the telepathic control of the psion.
    - Telepathy + Clairsentience: Project Mind
    - Telekinesis + Pyrokinesis: Atomic Disruption
    The psion attacks the very bonds between an enemy's molecules, subjecting the target to massive damage and, on a failed save, utter disintegration.
    - Telekinesis + Biokinesis: Exoskeleton
    The psion wraps himself in telekinetic force, erecting a hard, dark shell that moves around him as he moves, and can attack with great strength.
    - Telekinesis + Clairsentience: Dimensional Anchor
    The psion is affected by Free Action, and is additionally immune to all dimensional effects such as Teleport Field, Maze, Imprisonment, Implosion, and Time Stop.
    - Pyrokinesis + Biokinesis: Elemental Composition
    The psion may convert his very body to one of ice, fire, or electric energy.
    - Pyrokinesis + Clairsentience: Stasis Field
    The psion freezes all matter and energy around him, including both enemies and allies. He may not make physical attacks while in the area of effect, but he may move around and initiate psionic abilities, which will take effect when the stasis field ends.
    - Biokinesis + Clairsentience: Body Control
    The psion may cause his body to instantly evolve to provide 80% resistance to environmental damage (acid, fire, cold, lightning, magic energy, or poison) or 60% resistance to physical damage (slashing, crushing, or piercing/missile). Only one such resistance may be in effect at any time, but the psion may switch between them at will while the ability is maintained.

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
    ineth
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,353
    edited March 9
    Halcyon said:

    Aha, cool to hear on the poison ability, and another interesting way for the psypher to use their stealth skills.

    Hmm, I was actually going to say good thinking on waiving the 1/day and fatigue issue. In my experience enemies in even the early portions of ToB tend to tear through the psionic HLA's like paper tigers. Comparimg the benefits of these abilities to the challenge ranks in ToB and the costs to my Psypher, I typically spent these combats activating items or actung as a substandard fighter. Maybe that was just my experience though?

    On the question of putting the powers through ian item coding, would it be possible to do it through an extra permanent quickslot weapon item? In this way you could leave in the functionality of a head slot (which, being framk, would feel hella arbitrary to lose) while still going through the utility of an item code?

    Granted, that may mean difficulties with Psy Blade abd (possibly) your psionic monk...

    Lastly, regarding the Psyblade and Poison powers, any thoughts on upgrading those as the psionicist gains experience? The poison one sounds like it could be better balanced by a progression of damage rathef than a static one; as for the Psyblade I tend to forget the power exists when compared to other, later game weapons that don't cost hp.

    Responding here now that I have a dedicated thread for psionics.

    Most powers upgrade at levels 6 and 12. For powers that allow the target to make a save, you will see increasing saving throw penalties. For powers that do direct damage, you will see increasing damage. I have not implemented this power increase for the Poison Simulation power... yet. I'm open to suggestions. Maybe at level 1 it's 2d3 up-front + 1hp/round; at level 6 it's 2d4 + 1hp/3 seconds, and at level 12 it's 2d6 + 1hp/2 seconds? (For 30 second in each case. So 2d3+5, 2d4+10, and 2d6+15. And on a successful save (with progressive penalties) the victim takes half-damage up-front and none over time.)

    For Psychic Blade, I'm inclined to represent that power increase via weapon proficiency. Say, at level 6 you wield the blade with Mastery, and at level 12 you wield it with Grandmastery...?

    There are a couple options as far as how to use abilities. One is via a headslot or something. Another is to use them from an item quickslot, the way a wizard uses a wand. A third is to make use of a modding resource of which only one exists... if any other mod did the same thing they would be instantly and irrevocably incompatible. But none of this matters unless Beamdog enables target mode 7 a.k.a. 'Alacrity casting' from items. Which we won't know for sure until the 2.5 patch is officially released, which seems to still be a ways off. (They're doing a whole second round of beta testing?)

    Regarding the HLAs: yeah, they're basically the equivalent of ~7th level spells. There's nothing like Comet or Planetar or Energy Blades or whatever. Magic is unabashedly more powerful than psionics. A psionicist is sort of meant to play like a thief with some extra sauce on top. In TOB that may be underwhelming...

    Halcyon
  • HalcyonHalcyon Member Posts: 47
    edited March 10


    Responding here now that I have a dedicated thread for psionics.

    Most powers upgrade at levels 6 and 12. For powers that allow the target to make a save, you will see increasing saving throw penalties. For powers that do direct damage, you will see increasing damage. I have not implemented this power increase for the Poison Simulation power... yet. I'm open to suggestions. Maybe at level 1 it's 2d3 up-front + 1hp/round; at level 6 it's 2d4 + 1hp/3 seconds, and at level 12 it's 2d6 + 1hp/2 seconds? (For 30 second in each case. So 2d3+5, 2d4+10, and 2d6+15. And on a successful save (with progressive penalties) the victim takes half-damage up-front and none over time.)

    For Psychic Blade, I'm inclined to represent that power increase via weapon proficiency. Say, at level 6 you wield the blade with Mastery, and at level 12 you wield it with Grandmastery...?

    There are a couple options as far as how to use abilities. One is via a headslot or something. Another is to use them from an item quickslot, the way a wizard uses a wand. A third is to make use of a modding resource of which only one exists... if any other mod did the same thing they would be instantly and irrevocably incompatible. But none of this matters unless Beamdog enables target mode 7 a.k.a. 'Alacrity casting' from items. Which we won't know for sure until the 2.5 patch is officially released, which seems to still be a ways off. (They're doing a whole second round of beta testing?)

    Regarding the HLAs: yeah, they're basically the equivalent of ~7th level spells. There's nothing like Comet or Planetar or Energy Blades or whatever. Magic is unabashedly more powerful than psionics. A psionicist is sort of meant to play like a thief with some extra sauce on top. In TOB that may be underwhelming...

    Thanks for the post-transfer!

    Makes sense re: the poison. Though typically if I'm using against a foe it's to put a bite in their spell casting, so the damage is more icing on top than anything else.

    Regarding Psychic Blade, it'd be smidge helpful for Psionicist, but less so for the Soulblade and ...huh, I have no idea how monk weapon progression works, so maybe that one as well? In any of their cases, Psychic Blade has got a lot of competition in the magic weapon department.

    I am -no- help on the technical aspects of modding, didn't even realize BD was still developing updates to the engine! Good luck on what sounds like a vastly complicated bunch of work xD

    Re: HLA's: No doubt, it's not a power set to rely on and especially not with your opening up more powers to Soulblade and Psypher. I was more saying that since the Psy powers are on the far lower end of the scale anyway they prolly only need the nerf bat from one end rather than both.

    - -

    In any case, very cool to see all this coming together; can't wait to hear the specs on the new powers!

  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 3,183
    Finally! I'm looking forward for this one.

    I don't know if you did that on purpose, @subtledoctor , but in PnP Psionics gains a d6 as HD.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,353
    Raduziel said:

    in PnP Psionics gains a d6 as HD.

    Yeah I know, but in PnP you don't sacrifice your hp to power your abilities. My psions have to be able to use their powers and also, y'know, stay alive. Plus the fluff I've written talks about them being in peak physical condition compared to other rogues.

    The current MnG version just gives +1 per level, so 1d6+1... no different if you're actually rolling, but I guess there is a difference if you play with max hp rolls. (Me, I play something like BECMI rules, with rogues and priests getting d6 and warriors getting d8.)

    Meantime, I must complain about how annoying I find making spells. Every one of these abilities had to be hand-crafted, and adjusted to work with the rather complicated hp-reduction system. I should recruit you or @Grammarsalad to do the SPLs, I much prefer to nerd out on the Weidu!

    Anyway I'm almost done coding Elemental Composition. Then I can get down to recklessly abusing unused proficiencies and the 7eyes opcode. :lol:

    Hmm, it occurs to me I'll probably need to convert all of these abilities into wizard spells for it to work... hadn't thought about that too much.

    Raduziel
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 3,183
    edited March 10
    I'm kind of busy at the moment (as you may have noticed the DoF updates stopped), but I'll gladly help any way I can.

    To be honest, I'm kind of proud of being considered. Just keep me away from spelprot and we're cool.

    About the HP: as I said in the M&G thread once, Imoen always is a Psypher (now Psionist) in my runs and IIRC she receives a d6 as HD. That never was a problem, in fact I spammed so many powers with her that I reported it to you on said thread.

    Just a heads up about balance. It is your baby.

    PS: Now I notice the "no dual-class" thing. That's bad, my canonical Imoen won't be possible anymore. Are you using the sorcerer now as a base-class?

    Edit: Just occurred me and IDK if it is possible or doable, so here's the idea:

    The powers consume Fatigue instead of HP. And if your Fatigue reach -X the psionic collapses. You can apply a #93 effect every level (one spell with 50 headers, copy & paste, applied at level 1) to alter the char amount of Fatigue.

    IIRC, #93 accepts negative values to actually reduce fatigue.

    Making it as an aura effect that every round removes itself and increases the char fatigue. This way the character's Constitution would still be respected, normal ways of reducing Fatigue would still apply and a Psionic with regeneration wouldn't be a god walking upon mortals (that is the downside of the HP usage)

    You can even work it with PnP's amount of points, as long as you scale #93 accordingly.

    Brainstorming here.

    Post edited by Raduziel on
    Noobacca
  • AquadrizztAquadrizzt Member Posts: 869
    @subtledoctor , 1) very cool mod and I'm glad to see something coming out of the psionics component of MnG; 2) if there is a formula you follow for the max hit point reduction/regeneration, I could probably throw together a little weidu function to handle that for you.

  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 2,992
    edited March 10
    Given there is not a way to get around the use of INT and WIS for PSP's (as well as CON), it looks as if the warrior class will end up with more PSP's given their CON bonus in particular. I don't suppose there would be a way to raise that bonus for non-warrior types and not be overpowering in the way of HP's would there? I am guessing though, that in order to do that there would need to be a way of gaining HP over and beyond the normal max HP total that could be used for just that.
    Would it be possible to use the abilities similar to rage or berserk that would raise the non warriors HP for a short period of time when they initiated some sort of psychic battle?

    Post edited by Zaghoul on
    Raduziel
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,353

    if there is a formula you follow for the max hit point reduction/regeneration, I could probably throw together a little weidu function to handle that for you.

    It's semi-automated. It would be possible to change the hp costs of abilities depending on some condition like your kit of class, or having a spellstate set, or whatever. So a Psionicist could expend 4 hp to use Project Force, while a Soulblade migbt have to expend 5 hp. Could also do something like have an HLA that reduces the cost of all powers. Or, more complicated, have a toggleable ability that increases the cost of powers, along with increasing their effects.

    All possible. But I want to get a working version out the door before tackling that kind of stuff.

    Zaghoul
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,353
    edited March 14
    Raduziel said:

    About the HP: as I said in the M&G thread once, Imoen always is a Psypher (now Psionist) in my runs and IIRC she receives a d6 as HD. That never was a problem, in fact I spammed so many powers with her that I reported it to you on said thread.

    I'm thinking about increasing the cost of powers as you gain levels, to prevent spamming. Like, at levels 6 and 12, when your abilities maturally become more powerful. But it wpuld be slightly weird, in that you would have a clear, if small, incentive to stay at level 11 rather than stepping up to 12. Maybe giving access to the first High Science at level 12 would be a good incentive to advance... but then again that's early to be given access to level-7-equivalent powers.

    I think you played that before I rebalanced things...? I find that the best way to reduce spammage is to slow down hp regeneration. Let's do some math spamming Project Force (figure with casting time penalties, you can use it an average of 2x/round) at 4 hp per use.

    Old system:
    - 2x in first round = -8 hp
    - 2x in 2nd round brings you to -14 hp (you tegerate 2 from the first uses)
    - 2x in 3rd round brings you to -18 hp
    - 2x in 4th round brings you to -20 hp
    - 2x in 5th round keeps you at -20 hp.

    So you can spam low-level abilities constantly at a maximum cost of a -20 drain to your max hp. That's reasonable from level ~5 on.

    New system:
    - 1st round = -8 hp
    - 2nd round = -16 hp
    - 3rd round = -22 hp (regen 2)
    - 4th round = -28 hp (regen 2)
    - 5th round = -32 hp (regen 4)
    - 6th round = -36 hp (regen 4)
    - 7th round = -38 hp (regen 6)
    - 8th round = -40 hp (regen 6)
    - 9th round = -40 hp (regen 8)

    More expensive powers take longer to 'plateau;' it takes 18 rounds to regenerate from using Psychic Crush, for example.

    Maybe this could be extended a bit more... something like 15 seconds would make the regeneration a bit more staggered, and prevent spammage even more.
    Raduziel said:

    Now I notice the "no dual-class" thing. That's bad, my canonical Imoen won't be possible anymore. Are you using the sorcerer now as a base-class?

    Base classes are thief, fighter, monk. The old system involved learning abilities in a strict order - each discipline was a rigid ladder - and using a ton of .2da tables which know how far along each ladder you are. And it only had 5 abilities per discipline!

    Now there are 8 abilities per discipline, and I want to enable players to choose abilities in whatever order thry see fit (well, with certain contraints). So you could choose Id Insinuation at 2nd level and start freaking people out; while someone else could choose Ego Repair if they want Minsc in the party and want to calm down his Rage when he becomes dangerous to allies.

    The best way to feasibly represent that is to keep track of which abilities you learn, translate them into "known" wizard spells, and use opcode 214 to choose from known wizard spells to initiate abilities. So this won't work for any class that has access to the wizard spellbook.
    Raduziel said:

    Edit: Just occurred me and IDK if it is possible or doable, so here's the idea:

    The powers consume Fatigue instead of HP. And if your Fatigue reach -X the psionic collapses. You can apply a #93 effect every level (one spell with 50 headers, copy & paste, applied at level 1) to alter the char amount of Fatigue.

    IIRC, #93 accepts negative values to actually reduce fatigue.

    2 problems.

    1) I don't think you can restore fatigue or make it temporary; only wipe it out altogether. So regeneration-over-time that keeps track of when each ability was used and when its cost should be restored, would be impossible.

    2) Even if that were possible, you would have no visual indicator of how many points you have available before collapsing. And there's no easy way to create that. The nice thing about hp is, in addition to representing your vitality (and thus fitting my tweaked lore), the game plasters a running tally right on your portrait, at all times.

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
    Halcyon
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 3,183
    Problem #1 is easy to fix, just set a delayed Op93 on every power making it restore the same amount of fatigue you spent for activating the power.

    I can try to sketch something viable if you want to. The visual representation would be a problem indeed.

    I can create some new icons to represent amounts of Fatigue drain (for 50%, 25%, 10% and 5%).

    But IDK how to make the game read the current amount of Fatigue and give you the appropriate icon. You would have to work your magic here.

    Or just stick to the HP and make this whole thing easier. :P

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,353
    edited March 13
    Btw if anyone has ideas for more psionic powers, please feel free to discuss/brainstorm in this thread.

    I want to keep the disciplines the same size, but if I have good candidates for one extra devotion in every discipline, or one extra science in every discipline, I can add all four at once and keep things stable.

    Also, a bit more pie-in-the-sky, I'm open to adding more disciplines. I was working on adding Clairsentience as a 5th discipline before, but I couldn't come up with 5 good powers (much less 7). If we have enough good ideas to fill out the discipline, I'd be open to adding them.

    (Ideas for Clarisentience:
    - life detection (and add another devotion to Telepathy)
    - object reading (Identify)
    - clairvoyance
    - danger sense (immunity to crit/backstab)
    ...aaand, then I peter out. Would need 3 more powers, 1 HLA, and a couple cross-discipline powers.)

    PnP had the "Psychoportation" discipline which was all about different kinds of pseudo-teleportation... but that seems a bit too 'magic' for this concept of psionics.

    PnP Psychometabolism (which I've renamed "Biokinesis" because... I mean come on) had several powers that involved approximating animal abilities... that could possibly be interesting, and might be distinct enough from Biokinesis to justify two separate disciplines.
    - beast claw
    - animal shapeshifts
    - greater werewolf-style beast form as high science
    - ...?

    I know @Aquadrizzt has done some work on psionic powers that involve the manipulation of time... That also seems a bit to 'magic' for this concept, but feel free to try to convince me otherwise. (The only time-manipulation here is the supreme application of combining telekinesis and pyrokinesis.)

    On that note feel free to also discuss the HLA-level abilities as well... are there other cool powers that seem like they sit at the nexus of two disciplines? Or that might require mastery of three disciplines?

    Any thoughts are welcome.

  • HalcyonHalcyon Member Posts: 47
    I think the Time as Psionics justification comes mostly from the idea that time is subjective/experiential where as magic is more nominal. So time manipulation happens at the percieved level, perhaps speeding one up or slowing one down relative to others or to effects.

    I think there was a time power that allowed the delay of damage; not countering but shunting it off to be dealt with later. Although such a power could run into problems considering Powers are fueled by HP?

    Re: Clairsentience;

    A couple possible a High Sciences:

    Precognition: A power reflecting superior tactics that renders every member of the party sanctuaried for one turn or until an offensive action is taken, modeling the Psions knowledge of the future in an abstract sense. Something to allow the player to position their characters and buffs as potently as possible (esp during those event battles that force one into awkward party placement).

    Chronological Alignment: The opposite of the power above it, this power sits inactive (but hp consumed) on the character until someone uses Timestop, at which point the Psion will "tag along" with the mage who casts. Better suited if it could limit the tag along to enemies only, but not syre if that's possible..

    As a Devotion:
    Battle Cognition: A short duration buff on attacks, ac and saves based on combat cognition.

    A couple Science(s), maybe?
    Elsewhere Stance: A significant bonus to Breath saves and "projectile" based spells, reflecting the psion knowing how an attack will disperse and being already someplace else.

    Foresight (Psionic Contingency, basically): What it says on the tin, based not on "spell storage" but a psions preternatural awareness of later psionic needs.

    - - -

    An extra Biokinesis thought:

    Hulking Blow: increase to Strength and chance to "buffet" targets struck by the character.

    - - -

    Excited to see what more is brainstormed =D

    subtledoctorNoobacca
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,114
    what about spending fatigue levels instead of HP / alongside HP?

    maybe the psion could "regenerate" (lose) 1 fatigue level every round (so he's never becomes fatigued normally) and gets varying levels of fatigue by using abilities, those being such that fatigue levels affect them negatively (they become uselessly weak with negative luck)

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,353
    I love the idea of chronological alignment... sounds like the intersection of clairsentience and pyrokinesis.

    (Maybe time-related stuff is in the Clairsentience discipline... so no actual physical moving through time, but some mental effects through time...)

    I also love the idea of a psionic contingency but I think Contingency can only use memorized spells... psions as a technical matter don't have any :( I'll glance at stuff and see if something can be jury-rigged.

    A power that does something like give automatic success on the next saving throw would be cool. But I'm not sure if that can be done either...

    Halcyon
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,353
    edited March 14
    So actually this temporal/clairsentience thing might actually work for a new discipline. How do these sound?

    1) Base Power: Meditative Foresight
    - one stoneskin
    - cannot initiate during combat
    - maintainable
    - auto-canceled when you get hit
    - basically a physical version of Mind Ward
    - problem: the gray skin visual is hard-coded
    - maybe instead, 95% DR and auto-cancel when hit...?

    2) Devotion: Clairvoyance
    - remote viewing, just like the spell

    3) Devotion: Object Reading
    - per the Identify spell
    - need to prevent spammage
    - maybe something like, only usable once/turn

    4) Devotion: True Strike
    - next hit is a crit

    5) Science: Life Detection
    - see invisible
    - need another devotion in Telepathy
    - maintainable

    6) Science: Precognition
    - IWD Evasion
    - an extra Breath save to avoid magic projectiles/explosions
    - maybe... maintainable?

    7) Science: Danger Sense
    - AC bonus
    - Find Traps bonus
    - immunity to crits and backstabs
    - maintainable

    8) High Science: Contingency
    - this would be great
    - but honestly not sure if/how it can be done

    9) Clairsentience + Telepathy: _________?

    10) Clairsentience + Telekinesis: Dimensional Anchor
    - immunity to Teleport Field, Maze, Imprisonment, Timestop
    - maintainable
    - or maybe this should be with Pyrokinesis instead

    11) Clairsentience + Pyrokinesis: _________?
    - maybe something like Spell Turning...?
    - or the Robe of Reflection? Or whatever that thing is?

    12) Clairsentience + Biokinesis: _________?
    - maybe some kind of evolution-themed thing?
    - all stats to 24, or something?
    - or DEvolution - turn into a big monster
    - EDIT - or, put Body Control here

    So to add this, I would need:
    - find out what kind of Contingency can be done, OR invent another high science
    - three more cross-discipline HLA-level high sciences
    - one more devotion in Telepathy

    That would bring the total number of powers up to 50, which would be amazing.

    Also I'd need a new color for these... maybe yellow. Not sure how visible that would be, though. Have to play around. Maybe shift Pyrokinesis to real red and use yellow/orange for Clairsentience.

    EDIT - perhaps, move Body Control to the [Clairsentience + Biokinesis] spot, and do a beast/werewolf transformation as the Biokinesis high science.

    EDIT 2 - poop, this would mean I will need 12 more available stats to represent these abilities. Hmm. I think I have a line on ~ 7... need to look for 5 more.

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
    ArunsunHalcyon
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,353
    Raduziel said:

    Imoen always is a Psypher (now Psionist) in my runs

    ...

    PS: Now I notice the "no dual-class" thing. That's bad, my canonical Imoen won't be possible anymore. Are you using the sorcerer now as a base-class?

    Btw once this is all done and made compatible with my other mods, the way you could do this is, install the MnG feat system, leave Imoen as a trueclass thief, and use all of her feats to take psionic powers. She'll be limited to one discipline, but you can get 3 or 4 powers in that discipline before dual-classing. So she can have a bit of psionics, and a bit of thieving, plus a career as a mage.

    Raduziel
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 3,183
    The problem with this solution is that I can't limit the feat system to Imoen. All thieves (and I think all fighters?) would be under the feat system too.

    Don't worry, I'm a big boy. I'll not cry. But one question: why did you choose to not allow Dual-Classing? I asked about the Sorcerer thing first because I thought that using it as a base class was the reason to limit DC.

    About the powers, I'll come back to it and give a one by one insight, now my time is a little bit short.

    Great job, doc!

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,353
    edited March 14
    Raduziel said:

    one question: why did you choose to not allow Dual-Classing?

    The way to give players free-form choice to learn any power at any time, is to assign them to stats. This way you can track which powers you have learned. (The other way would be to provide them as innate abilities, in which case your innates bar would be 4 screens long and they would all constantly move around as you use abilities.)

    This new way, we can track known powers via stats, and when you want to use one, your known powers will temporarily populate your wizard spellbook* and then you'll use opcode 214 to choose one of your "known wizard spells."

    * If you are an arcane caster, obviously this is a problem. Your known wizard spells will be mixed in with your psionic abilities. You'd be able to cast NRD at will.

    I looked into temporarily removing your known wizard spells during this process, and then adding them back. But there's no feasible way to do that.

    So the upshot is, this psionics system cannot work for any classes that have access to the wizard spellbook.

    Raduziel
  • HalcyonHalcyon Member Posts: 47
    edited March 14
    More thoughts on Clairsentience:

    Meditative Foresight sounds fine, my only concern is balancing a one hit negation with 4 hp lost (but slowly regenerated). I suppose that's a mildly good trade-off? Another option might be a one off luck effect, just to give it some separation from Mind Ward and Carapace.

    Clairvoyance sounds good as a Devotion.

    True Strike as a Wiz Spell just adds 20 to your to hit, would your True Strike make the attack function as a true critical? And is this maintainable or something the Psion woupd pop in thick of combat?

    For Object Reading, could the hp cost of the power be given an 8 hour duration rather than the normal regen rate of other powers? In this way a Psion can still pop it indefinitely like their other powers, but there's a significant cost to doing it "in the field" as it were.

    Precognition and Danger Sense both seem fine.

    On the meta-psionics side:

    For Clair+Telepathy, Something that makes the target more susceptible to thePsions powers, reflecting the psion reading the mind of the target to better psionically influence them. Maybe something to evade mind blank or prots from stun/dom/charm, or just a Telepathy focused version of Greater Malison?

    Dimensional Anchor definitely sounds like something I'd pick up ^_^

    For Clair+Pyro, spell reflection seems like a pretty magic focused effect. To toss some alternative ideas out; Force Attraction, a save penalty vs energy attacks on a group of targets; Energy Purification, a power to turn Pyrokinesis powers into pure magic or crushing damage while maintained (possibly more trouble than its worth); Last possible idea, some kind of Energy chain that allows a Pyro effect to follow a target.

    I agree the Body Control Power does make more sense as a Clair+Biokin power than straight Biokinesis, and a higher level transform power is currently kinda lacking in straight Biokin anyway so it sounds like a good trade off.

    Aaaand, lastly a new Tele devotion... hmm, how about something that punishes a target for trying to affect the psions mind? A maintainable power thst pops when the character is the target of (anything that trips mind ward) that forces the caster to suffer a save vs fear effect.

    (Edited, cuzz typing on a phone keyboard is terribad.)

    Noobacca
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 2,992
    Any thoughts as to the targeting of psionic using classes by others such as Mind Flayers? I remember playing PnP using the 1st edition version where other creatures could detect it such as flayers and githyanki and they would target another psionic using player first, as they were seen as more of a threat.

    Noobacca
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,353
    Halcyon said:

    Meditative Foresight sounds fine, my only concern is balancing a one hit negation with 4 hp lost (but slowly regenerated). I suppose that's a mildly good trade-off? Another option might be a one off luck effect, just to give it some separation from Mind Ward and Carapace.

    Good points. I totally forgot all the effort I made in TnB to redefine Luck as a form of instinctive foresight, and thus appropriate for the Divination school. So, not sure how best to use it here. A maintainable power that gives +1 Luck? Maybe a more expensive power mimicking Chant, giving +1 Luck to allies and -1 Luck to enemies? (And then drop True Strike or even Object Reading to be the base 4hp power.)
    Halcyon said:

    True Strike as a Wiz Spell just adds 20 to your to hit, would your True Strike make the attack function as a true critical? And is this maintainable or something the Psion woupd pop in thick of combat?

    Off the top of my head, I think it could be a maintainable power which sets all hits to crit, but also sets a "melee hit effect" which cancels the "always crit" status. So you should just get one crit, whenever you happen to attack, and as soon as you do it will go away and you'll start regenerating those hp.
    Halcyon said:

    For Object Reading, could the hp cost of the power be given an 8 hour duration rather than the normal regen rate of other powers? In this way a Psion can still pop it indefinitely like their other powers, but there's a significant cost to doing it "in the field" as it were.

    Maybe but I'm leery of deviating from tbe uniform application if the rule. I'd rather do something like apply 206 protection against the Object Reading ability for 60 seconds or so. It's long enough that nobody in their right mind will wait around to use the ability every 60 seconds. And abilities can be used at will so if you try too soon and nothing happens, no harm no foul.
    Halcyon said:

    For Clair+Telepathy, Something that makes the target more susceptible to thePsions powers, reflecting the psion reading the mind of the target to better psionically influence them. Maybe something to evade mind blank or prots from stun/dom/charm, or just a Telepathy focused version of Greater Malison?

    Interesting idea. I've set most psionic powers, from all disciplines, to make enemies save vs. Polymorph. 1) Saves bs. Spells are wildly overused, and saves vs. Polymorph are underused: 2) my lore retcon is tha psionic telepathic powers work on brain tissue directly, requiring a save against physical effects represented by Polymorph. Whereas magical effects target your "mind" or domething like that.

    It's a bit thin, I know.

    So one option is to change telepathic attacks to require a save vs. Spells, while telekinetic and other effects use saves vs. Polymorph.

    Anothef option is to keep everything using Polymorph saves, but put different powers into different schools. Telepathic powers would be in the school of Enchantment; Telekinetic powers would be in the school of Alteration; Pyrokinetic powers would be in the school of Evocation; and Clairsentience powers would be in the school of Divination. (Dunno about Biokinesis but it probably doesn't matter. Poison is the only offensive power there, and it uses a Death/Poison save.)

    That way it would be harder to use telepathic powers against Enchanters, and harder to use telekinetic powers against Transmuters, etc. And this HLA could be something like, give all allies a bonus to saves vs. Enchantment, and all enemies a penalty to saves vs. Enchantment.

    Although that spunds more like a ~3rd-level spell, than an HLA.
    Halcyon said:

    Aaaand, lastly a new Tele devotion... hmm, how about something that punishes a target for trying to affect the psions mind? A maintainable power thst pops when the character is the target of (anything that trips mind ward) that forces the caster to suffer a save vs fear effect.

    Cool idea, but probably not possible. :(

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,353
    Zaghoul said:

    Any thoughts as to the targeting of psionic using classes by others such as Mind Flayers? I remember playing PnP using the 1st edition version where other creatures could detect it such as flayers and githyanki and they would target another psionic using player first, as they were seen as more of a threat.

    I know exactly zilch about AI. So probably not. What I plan to do is square up some of the abilities used by those creatures so they behave (sort of) like these ones. And add some specific interactions, like giving illithids' Psionic Blast a chance to knock down your Intellect Fortress.

    Also I want to nerf Chaotic Commands a bit - such a low-level spell should not turn any average Joe into a illithid-killing machine. Maybe I can get illithids to use a variety of attacks from different disciplines, and have Chaotic Commands only protect against the telepathic ones.

    I need to look at the scripts. If all they do is spam Psionic Blast at you, then maybe I'll just change that .SPL to have a chance to do one of several effects - say, Id Insinuation, Donination, Psychic Crush, Project Force, Mass Immobilize, Psychic Combustion, and Generate Lightning. 14% chance of each. They will be used randomly but for the player it will seem like a bunch of illithids trying different attacks against them. And with such varied effects, it will be really difficult to defend against them all. :naughty:

    HalcyonRaduzielZaghoul
  • DjinnDjinn Member Posts: 54
    edited March 15
    I have questions about your thoughts on multiclassing and dualclassing for this mod.

    Would fighters be allowed to dualclass into psionicists, or soulblades be allowed to dualclass into thieves?
    And would multiclass fighter/psionicists or soulblade/thieves be allowed?

    Post edited by Djinn on
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,353
    @Djinn good question. I hadn't thought about it (have I mentioned my opinion that dual-classing is the worst? :lol: ) but I don't see why not.

    I'm not going to make multiclasses, people can use EEKeeper for that.

    Djinn
  • HalcyonHalcyon Member Posts: 47



    Good points. I totally forgot all the effort I made in TnB to redefine Luck as a form of instinctive foresight, and thus appropriate for the Divination school. So, not sure how best to use it here. A maintainable power that gives +1 Luck? Maybe a more expensive power mimicking Chant, giving +1 Luck to allies and -1 Luck to enemies? (And then drop True Strike or even Object Reading to be the base 4hp power.)

    I think either of those options make sense.

    Off the top of my head, I think it could be a maintainable power which sets all hits to crit, but also sets a "melee hit effect" which cancels the "always crit" status. So you should just get one crit, whenever you happen to attack, and as soon as you do it will go away and you'll start regenerating those hp.

    Sounds good.

    Maybe but I'm leery of deviating from tbe uniform application if the rule. I'd rather do something like apply 206 protection against the Object Reading ability for 60 seconds or so. It's long enough that nobody in their right mind will wait around to use the ability every 60 seconds. And abilities can be used at will so if you try too soon and nothing happens, no harm no foul.

    Cool, sounds like an easy implement then.

    Interesting idea. I've set most psionic powers, from all disciplines, to make enemies save vs. Polymorph. 1) Saves bs. Spells are wildly overused, and saves vs. Polymorph are underused: 2) my lore retcon is tha psionic telepathic powers work on brain tissue directly, requiring a save against physical effects represented by Polymorph. Whereas magical effects target your "mind" or domething like that.

    It's a bit thin, I know.

    So one option is to change telepathic attacks to require a save vs. Spells, while telekinetic and other effects use saves vs. Polymorph.

    Anothef option is to keep everything using Polymorph saves, but put different powers into different schools. Telepathic powers would be in the school of Enchantment; Telekinetic powers would be in the school of Alteration; Pyrokinetic powers would be in the school of Evocation; and Clairsentience powers would be in the school of Divination. (Dunno about Biokinesis but it probably doesn't matter. Poison is the only offensive power there, and it uses a Death/Poison save.)

    That way it would be harder to use telepathic powers against Enchanters, and harder to use telekinetic powers against Transmuters, etc. And this HLA could be something like, give all allies a bonus to saves vs. Enchantment, and all enemies a penalty to saves vs. Enchantment.

    Although that spunds more like a ~3rd-level spell, than an HLA.

    That all sounds like sooo much work, esp. when there's already space dedicated to mental prot. powers in other locations on the Psion skillset. If you want to maintain the save vs Polymorph, maybe just make this ability a Greater Malison effect that only lowers saves vs Polymorph, possibly something that dispels prot. from Polymorph effects to allow a Telepath access to target a given character.

    Alternatively, a buffed field effect that drastically reduces a high power foes effectiveness could make a nice addition.

    A Cool idea, but probably not possible :(

    Thought that might be the case, but assumed you'd know far better than me what's possible.

  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 3,183

    I'm not going to make multiclasses, people can use EEKeeper for that.

    EEKeepered MC have some weird behavior (namely the proficiency system). That's the reason why I'm making MC kits for DoF.

    And yes, making MC kits is a pain.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,353
    It's not that it's a pain... it's just that, a Soulblade is effectively a fighter/psionicist. I don't see what the multiclass gets you, compared to the effort of making the kit.

    The proficiency thing only really matters if the kit is meant to have unusual proficiency/usability restrictions. IMHO the HLA issue is a bigger deal, but if someone doesn't mind it, it can still be plenty fun with EEKeeper.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,353
    I can accommodate 50+ powers, *IF* I use all of stats 132 and 134, instead of just the upper 3 bytes of each. In fact, if I add stat 33 I could accommodate a 6th discipline. (But let's not go crazy.)

    I THINK it's safe to lay claim to stats 134 and 132 for this. Which means the only things stopping me from adding Clairsentience as a 5th discipline are:
    - one more devotion in Telepathy
    - a high science for Clairsentience (Contingency is a no-go :( )
    - a cross-discipline high science for Clairsentience + Telepathy
    - a cross-discipline high science for Clairsentience + Pyrokinesis
    - the time to make these 12 new spells

    Noobacca
  • HalcyonHalcyon Member Posts: 47
    Hmm, well I guess in the absence of any other ideas, technically Telepathy doesn't have a confusion-inducing effect. Blindness, if put on a short duration, could also be an effective attack without being -too- effective.

    For Clairsentience, and not at all sure if it can be implemented, what about a power that extends the range of other powers to your remote viewing area? Or, perhaps allows one to target a given creature as if they're right by you no matter how far away they actually are (separated by game screen barriers, of course). A mental co-location of sorts. Dunno if it even could be done of course...

    A mass blindness effect for Clair + Telepathy seems in keeping, flavor it as the targets getting mass hallucinations of a future or past that isn't there.

    For Clair + Pyro, and another one that I'm pretty sure can't even be done with the engine, a temporal stutter spell that forces a target to take their damage x seconds in the future; potentially allowing the psion to delay damage on a target until some later point.

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