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[MOD] -Will to Power- a 2E-inspired psionics system for the Infinity Engine

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edited October 2018 in General Modding
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NoobaccaMantis37AquadrizztHalcyonArdulGrammarsaladinethUOLegacyEbonslayer
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  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited October 2018
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    ineth
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited March 2018
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    Halcyon
  • HalcyonHalcyon Member Posts: 56
    edited March 2018


    Responding here now that I have a dedicated thread for psionics.

    Most powers upgrade at levels 6 and 12. For powers that allow the target to make a save, you will see increasing saving throw penalties. For powers that do direct damage, you will see increasing damage. I have not implemented this power increase for the Poison Simulation power... yet. I'm open to suggestions. Maybe at level 1 it's 2d3 up-front + 1hp/round; at level 6 it's 2d4 + 1hp/3 seconds, and at level 12 it's 2d6 + 1hp/2 seconds? (For 30 second in each case. So 2d3+5, 2d4+10, and 2d6+15. And on a successful save (with progressive penalties) the victim takes half-damage up-front and none over time.)

    For Psychic Blade, I'm inclined to represent that power increase via weapon proficiency. Say, at level 6 you wield the blade with Mastery, and at level 12 you wield it with Grandmastery...?

    There are a couple options as far as how to use abilities. One is via a headslot or something. Another is to use them from an item quickslot, the way a wizard uses a wand. A third is to make use of a modding resource of which only one exists... if any other mod did the same thing they would be instantly and irrevocably incompatible. But none of this matters unless Beamdog enables target mode 7 a.k.a. 'Alacrity casting' from items. Which we won't know for sure until the 2.5 patch is officially released, which seems to still be a ways off. (They're doing a whole second round of beta testing?)

    Regarding the HLAs: yeah, they're basically the equivalent of ~7th level spells. There's nothing like Comet or Planetar or Energy Blades or whatever. Magic is unabashedly more powerful than psionics. A psionicist is sort of meant to play like a thief with some extra sauce on top. In TOB that may be underwhelming...

    Thanks for the post-transfer!

    Makes sense re: the poison. Though typically if I'm using against a foe it's to put a bite in their spell casting, so the damage is more icing on top than anything else.

    Regarding Psychic Blade, it'd be smidge helpful for Psionicist, but less so for the Soulblade and ...huh, I have no idea how monk weapon progression works, so maybe that one as well? In any of their cases, Psychic Blade has got a lot of competition in the magic weapon department.

    I am -no- help on the technical aspects of modding, didn't even realize BD was still developing updates to the engine! Good luck on what sounds like a vastly complicated bunch of work xD

    Re: HLA's: No doubt, it's not a power set to rely on and especially not with your opening up more powers to Soulblade and Psypher. I was more saying that since the Psy powers are on the far lower end of the scale anyway they prolly only need the nerf bat from one end rather than both.

    - -

    In any case, very cool to see all this coming together; can't wait to hear the specs on the new powers!
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,714
    Finally! I'm looking forward for this one.

    I don't know if you did that on purpose, @subtledoctor , but in PnP Psionics gains a d6 as HD.
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    Raduziel
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,714
    edited March 2018
    I'm kind of busy at the moment (as you may have noticed the DoF updates stopped), but I'll gladly help any way I can.

    To be honest, I'm kind of proud of being considered. Just keep me away from spelprot and we're cool.

    About the HP: as I said in the M&G thread once, Imoen always is a Psypher (now Psionist) in my runs and IIRC she receives a d6 as HD. That never was a problem, in fact I spammed so many powers with her that I reported it to you on said thread.

    Just a heads up about balance. It is your baby.

    PS: Now I notice the "no dual-class" thing. That's bad, my canonical Imoen won't be possible anymore. Are you using the sorcerer now as a base-class?

    Edit: Just occurred me and IDK if it is possible or doable, so here's the idea:

    The powers consume Fatigue instead of HP. And if your Fatigue reach -X the psionic collapses. You can apply a #93 effect every level (one spell with 50 headers, copy & paste, applied at level 1) to alter the char amount of Fatigue.

    IIRC, #93 accepts negative values to actually reduce fatigue.

    Making it as an aura effect that every round removes itself and increases the char fatigue. This way the character's Constitution would still be respected, normal ways of reducing Fatigue would still apply and a Psionic with regeneration wouldn't be a god walking upon mortals (that is the downside of the HP usage)

    You can even work it with PnP's amount of points, as long as you scale #93 accordingly.

    Brainstorming here.
    Post edited by Raduziel on
    Noobacca
  • AquadrizztAquadrizzt Member Posts: 1,065
    @subtledoctor , 1) very cool mod and I'm glad to see something coming out of the psionics component of MnG; 2) if there is a formula you follow for the max hit point reduction/regeneration, I could probably throw together a little weidu function to handle that for you.
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 3,938
    edited March 2018
    Given there is not a way to get around the use of INT and WIS for PSP's (as well as CON), it looks as if the warrior class will end up with more PSP's given their CON bonus in particular. I don't suppose there would be a way to raise that bonus for non-warrior types and not be overpowering in the way of HP's would there? I am guessing though, that in order to do that there would need to be a way of gaining HP over and beyond the normal max HP total that could be used for just that.
    Would it be possible to use the abilities similar to rage or berserk that would raise the non warriors HP for a short period of time when they initiated some sort of psychic battle?
    Post edited by Zaghoul on
    Raduziel
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    Zaghoul
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited March 2018
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    Halcyon
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,714
    Problem #1 is easy to fix, just set a delayed Op93 on every power making it restore the same amount of fatigue you spent for activating the power.

    I can try to sketch something viable if you want to. The visual representation would be a problem indeed.

    I can create some new icons to represent amounts of Fatigue drain (for 50%, 25%, 10% and 5%).

    But IDK how to make the game read the current amount of Fatigue and give you the appropriate icon. You would have to work your magic here.

    Or just stick to the HP and make this whole thing easier. :P
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited March 2018
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  • HalcyonHalcyon Member Posts: 56
    I think the Time as Psionics justification comes mostly from the idea that time is subjective/experiential where as magic is more nominal. So time manipulation happens at the percieved level, perhaps speeding one up or slowing one down relative to others or to effects.

    I think there was a time power that allowed the delay of damage; not countering but shunting it off to be dealt with later. Although such a power could run into problems considering Powers are fueled by HP?

    Re: Clairsentience;

    A couple possible a High Sciences:

    Precognition: A power reflecting superior tactics that renders every member of the party sanctuaried for one turn or until an offensive action is taken, modeling the Psions knowledge of the future in an abstract sense. Something to allow the player to position their characters and buffs as potently as possible (esp during those event battles that force one into awkward party placement).

    Chronological Alignment: The opposite of the power above it, this power sits inactive (but hp consumed) on the character until someone uses Timestop, at which point the Psion will "tag along" with the mage who casts. Better suited if it could limit the tag along to enemies only, but not syre if that's possible..

    As a Devotion:
    Battle Cognition: A short duration buff on attacks, ac and saves based on combat cognition.

    A couple Science(s), maybe?
    Elsewhere Stance: A significant bonus to Breath saves and "projectile" based spells, reflecting the psion knowing how an attack will disperse and being already someplace else.

    Foresight (Psionic Contingency, basically): What it says on the tin, based not on "spell storage" but a psions preternatural awareness of later psionic needs.

    - - -

    An extra Biokinesis thought:

    Hulking Blow: increase to Strength and chance to "buffet" targets struck by the character.

    - - -

    Excited to see what more is brainstormed =D
    [Deleted User]Noobacca
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,308
    what about spending fatigue levels instead of HP / alongside HP?

    maybe the psion could "regenerate" (lose) 1 fatigue level every round (so he's never becomes fatigued normally) and gets varying levels of fatigue by using abilities, those being such that fatigue levels affect them negatively (they become uselessly weak with negative luck)
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    Halcyon
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited March 2018
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    Post edited by [Deleted User] on
    ArunsunHalcyon
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    Raduziel
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,714
    The problem with this solution is that I can't limit the feat system to Imoen. All thieves (and I think all fighters?) would be under the feat system too.

    Don't worry, I'm a big boy. I'll not cry. But one question: why did you choose to not allow Dual-Classing? I asked about the Sorcerer thing first because I thought that using it as a base class was the reason to limit DC.

    About the powers, I'll come back to it and give a one by one insight, now my time is a little bit short.

    Great job, doc!
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited March 2018
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    Raduziel
  • HalcyonHalcyon Member Posts: 56
    edited March 2018
    More thoughts on Clairsentience:

    Meditative Foresight sounds fine, my only concern is balancing a one hit negation with 4 hp lost (but slowly regenerated). I suppose that's a mildly good trade-off? Another option might be a one off luck effect, just to give it some separation from Mind Ward and Carapace.

    Clairvoyance sounds good as a Devotion.

    True Strike as a Wiz Spell just adds 20 to your to hit, would your True Strike make the attack function as a true critical? And is this maintainable or something the Psion woupd pop in thick of combat?

    For Object Reading, could the hp cost of the power be given an 8 hour duration rather than the normal regen rate of other powers? In this way a Psion can still pop it indefinitely like their other powers, but there's a significant cost to doing it "in the field" as it were.

    Precognition and Danger Sense both seem fine.

    On the meta-psionics side:

    For Clair+Telepathy, Something that makes the target more susceptible to thePsions powers, reflecting the psion reading the mind of the target to better psionically influence them. Maybe something to evade mind blank or prots from stun/dom/charm, or just a Telepathy focused version of Greater Malison?

    Dimensional Anchor definitely sounds like something I'd pick up ^_^

    For Clair+Pyro, spell reflection seems like a pretty magic focused effect. To toss some alternative ideas out; Force Attraction, a save penalty vs energy attacks on a group of targets; Energy Purification, a power to turn Pyrokinesis powers into pure magic or crushing damage while maintained (possibly more trouble than its worth); Last possible idea, some kind of Energy chain that allows a Pyro effect to follow a target.

    I agree the Body Control Power does make more sense as a Clair+Biokin power than straight Biokinesis, and a higher level transform power is currently kinda lacking in straight Biokin anyway so it sounds like a good trade off.

    Aaaand, lastly a new Tele devotion... hmm, how about something that punishes a target for trying to affect the psions mind? A maintainable power thst pops when the character is the target of (anything that trips mind ward) that forces the caster to suffer a save vs fear effect.

    (Edited, cuzz typing on a phone keyboard is terribad.)
    Noobacca
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 3,938
    Any thoughts as to the targeting of psionic using classes by others such as Mind Flayers? I remember playing PnP using the 1st edition version where other creatures could detect it such as flayers and githyanki and they would target another psionic using player first, as they were seen as more of a threat.
    Noobacca
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    HalcyonRaduzielZaghoul
  • DjinnDjinn Member Posts: 76
    edited March 2018
    I have questions about your thoughts on multiclassing and dualclassing for this mod.

    Would fighters be allowed to dualclass into psionicists, or soulblades be allowed to dualclass into thieves?
    And would multiclass fighter/psionicists or soulblade/thieves be allowed?
    Post edited by Djinn on
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    Djinn
  • HalcyonHalcyon Member Posts: 56



    Good points. I totally forgot all the effort I made in TnB to redefine Luck as a form of instinctive foresight, and thus appropriate for the Divination school. So, not sure how best to use it here. A maintainable power that gives +1 Luck? Maybe a more expensive power mimicking Chant, giving +1 Luck to allies and -1 Luck to enemies? (And then drop True Strike or even Object Reading to be the base 4hp power.)

    I think either of those options make sense.

    Off the top of my head, I think it could be a maintainable power which sets all hits to crit, but also sets a "melee hit effect" which cancels the "always crit" status. So you should just get one crit, whenever you happen to attack, and as soon as you do it will go away and you'll start regenerating those hp.

    Sounds good.

    Maybe but I'm leery of deviating from tbe uniform application if the rule. I'd rather do something like apply 206 protection against the Object Reading ability for 60 seconds or so. It's long enough that nobody in their right mind will wait around to use the ability every 60 seconds. And abilities can be used at will so if you try too soon and nothing happens, no harm no foul.

    Cool, sounds like an easy implement then.

    Interesting idea. I've set most psionic powers, from all disciplines, to make enemies save vs. Polymorph. 1) Saves bs. Spells are wildly overused, and saves vs. Polymorph are underused: 2) my lore retcon is tha psionic telepathic powers work on brain tissue directly, requiring a save against physical effects represented by Polymorph. Whereas magical effects target your "mind" or domething like that.

    It's a bit thin, I know.

    So one option is to change telepathic attacks to require a save vs. Spells, while telekinetic and other effects use saves vs. Polymorph.

    Anothef option is to keep everything using Polymorph saves, but put different powers into different schools. Telepathic powers would be in the school of Enchantment; Telekinetic powers would be in the school of Alteration; Pyrokinetic powers would be in the school of Evocation; and Clairsentience powers would be in the school of Divination. (Dunno about Biokinesis but it probably doesn't matter. Poison is the only offensive power there, and it uses a Death/Poison save.)

    That way it would be harder to use telepathic powers against Enchanters, and harder to use telekinetic powers against Transmuters, etc. And this HLA could be something like, give all allies a bonus to saves vs. Enchantment, and all enemies a penalty to saves vs. Enchantment.

    Although that spunds more like a ~3rd-level spell, than an HLA.

    That all sounds like sooo much work, esp. when there's already space dedicated to mental prot. powers in other locations on the Psion skillset. If you want to maintain the save vs Polymorph, maybe just make this ability a Greater Malison effect that only lowers saves vs Polymorph, possibly something that dispels prot. from Polymorph effects to allow a Telepath access to target a given character.

    Alternatively, a buffed field effect that drastically reduces a high power foes effectiveness could make a nice addition.

    A Cool idea, but probably not possible :(

    Thought that might be the case, but assumed you'd know far better than me what's possible.
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,714

    I'm not going to make multiclasses, people can use EEKeeper for that.

    EEKeepered MC have some weird behavior (namely the proficiency system). That's the reason why I'm making MC kits for DoF.

    And yes, making MC kits is a pain.
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    Noobacca
  • HalcyonHalcyon Member Posts: 56
    Hmm, well I guess in the absence of any other ideas, technically Telepathy doesn't have a confusion-inducing effect. Blindness, if put on a short duration, could also be an effective attack without being -too- effective.

    For Clairsentience, and not at all sure if it can be implemented, what about a power that extends the range of other powers to your remote viewing area? Or, perhaps allows one to target a given creature as if they're right by you no matter how far away they actually are (separated by game screen barriers, of course). A mental co-location of sorts. Dunno if it even could be done of course...

    A mass blindness effect for Clair + Telepathy seems in keeping, flavor it as the targets getting mass hallucinations of a future or past that isn't there.

    For Clair + Pyro, and another one that I'm pretty sure can't even be done with the engine, a temporal stutter spell that forces a target to take their damage x seconds in the future; potentially allowing the psion to delay damage on a target until some later point.
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