I would like to renew the call for higher level cap and more than 3 classes

Dark_Ansem

In the toolset, we can potentially set class levels to 60. PER CLASS. Leading to monsters with 180HD. Now, I'm not saying that Players should be able to go as far (I daresay that lvl 100 would be more than enough for most builds, once class numbers are increased and metamagic/feats in general are unhardcoded - to make it viable for spellcasters). A proper template system would also help.

My point is, the engine can handle it. And I seem to recall that, in the non-enhanced toolset, you'd only go to 60 in total.

The potential is there, why let it go waste?

1varangian

D&D doesn't work that way.

Epic spellcasting should get proper implementation though.

DerpCity

@1varangian Doesn't work in what way? As far as I'm aware, epic levels don't end, and there are monsters with 100 HD (The flesh colossus, for example)

Dark_Ansem

1varangian said:

D&D doesn't work that way.

Epic spellcasting should get proper implementation though.

It does work that way - monsters can be augmented to ridiculous levels. But Epic Spellcasting does need to actually be in, because ATM we have Quadratic Warriors and Linear Wizards.

DerpCity said:

@1varangian Doesn't work in what way? As far as I'm aware, epic levels don't end, and there are monsters with 100 HD (The flesh colossus, for example)

I wasn't aware of that monster. Wow. I guess then I also have to add: make it possible to go all the way up to 100 in the toolset?
EDIT: you're right BTW. Epic levels don't end. I suggested 100 because it's fitting for a cap.

FreshLemonBun

Keep in mind several things. For example increased HD tends to have lower CR than a class level, which only certain races can qualify for in the first place, so that 1 HD can be as low as 1/4 level.

Also there is no theoretical limit on a character's level but no doubt it will get progressively more difficult to find suitable encounters that reward experience points. Some things like certain summons have been made for NWN which stop progressing at level 40, and I think they should leave it as it is, 40+ should be for modders if it gets uncapped.

If they're going to set a cap they should probably do it at a power of 2 for example 128 or 256 so it works nicely with their programmer things.

Dark_Ansem

"a power of 2"?
I support either 128 or 256 with the possibility of setting custom caps per module.

RifleLeroy

If there is one thing that prevents me from buying the EE is precisely the failure to introduce these two options, in addition to the non-resolutions of some old and well-known problems.

Dark_Ansem

RifleLeroy said:

If there is one thing that prevents me from buying the EE is precisely the failure to introduce these two options, in addition to the non-resolutions of some old and well-known problems.

@JuliusBorisov which Trello cards cover these two options, again?

JuliusBorisov

Dark_Ansem said:

@JuliusBorisov which Trello cards cover these two options (higher level cap and more than 3 classes), again?

more than 3 classes - https://trello.com/c/qoi6QZTO/32-add-the-ability-to-have-a-fourth-class. higher level cap - it's something that is closely related to more than 3 classes.

Dark_Ansem

JuliusBorisov said:

Dark_Ansem said:

@JuliusBorisov which Trello cards cover these two options (higher level cap and more than 3 classes), again?

more than 3 classes - https://trello.com/c/qoi6QZTO/32-add-the-ability-to-have-a-fourth-class. higher level cap - it's something that is closely related to more than 3 classes.

Thank you. So if they're in the icebox, they don't need to be voted anymore yes?

FreshLemonBun

They were never voted, they were always considered like some other things, the GUI refactor for example, which needs to be finished before 4 classes can be done.

Dark_Ansem

FreshLemonBun said:

They were never voted, they were always considered like some other things, the GUI refactor for example, which needs to be finished before 4 classes can be done.

Some of them WERE voted.

JuliusBorisov

Dark_Ansem said:

JuliusBorisov said:

Dark_Ansem said:

@JuliusBorisov which Trello cards cover these two options (higher level cap and more than 3 classes), again?

more than 3 classes - https://trello.com/c/qoi6QZTO/32-add-the-ability-to-have-a-fourth-class. higher level cap - it's something that is closely related to more than 3 classes.

Thank you. So if they're in the icebox, they don't need to be voted anymore yes?

As they're not on the Input board, they don't need to be voted for, yes.

FinalStand

I would suggest taking level cap and it optional.

For modders and PWs, a lot of worlds have convoluted systems for "extended epic" levels past 40. There has been a lot of work on a lot of worlds trying to work around this. Being able to unlock those and make real levels would be huge for these worlds.

Make it optional and just unlock it. Pad out 2das to 60 or 80 (using same stat progression, etc)... Let the modders deal with any imbalances it might make (in spell casting or otherwise).

"normal" modules won't be effected since option isn't enabled (cap at 40 by default).

Dark_Ansem

FinalStand said:

I would suggest taking level cap and it optional.

For modders and PWs, a lot of worlds have convoluted systems for "extended epic" levels past 40. There has been a lot of work on a lot of worlds trying to work around this. Being able to unlock those and make real levels would be huge for these worlds.

Make it optional and just unlock it. Pad out 2das to 60 or 80 (using same stat progression, etc)... Let the modders deal with any imbalances it might make (in spell casting or otherwise).

"normal" modules won't be effected since option isn't enabled (cap at 40 by default).

80 is not high enough. I do agree with the rest.

FreshLemonBun

If you look closely in the development Trello you can see that certain cards have votes and certain cards don't have votes. Cards that don't have votes are cards that were created in the development Trello without a voting process, that means that the developers already consider these as good ideas for future development of the game. 4th class covers the discussion of 4th class as well as a higher limit of classes and as Julius pointed out the issue of level caps is closely related. If we examine the card for adding a 4th class slot we can see a pink dependency label that says UI refactor under which is also a card without votes placed in the Ice Box. The reason the UI refactor is in the Ice Box section is because they haven't figured out a way they would like to do it yet. Until they figure that out there wont be progress on the UI refactor card, and until the UI refactor card has had progress there wont be progress on the 4th class card.

There are also other similarly named cards such as the GUI overhaul card which actually aims to do something entirely different and isn't relevant to the topic.

The reasonable conclusion is that they want to do it but it's on hold until they finish the UI stuff which is also on hold until they have time to research how to do that in the best way.

You could however make the argument that a level "number" doesn't have the same impact or space requirement on the UI so they could start by unhardcoding the level cap for modders first. That's the suggestion I would make.

Dark_Ansem

FreshLemonBun said:

If you look closely in the development Trello you can see that certain cards have votes and certain cards don't have votes. Cards that don't have votes are cards that were created in the development Trello without a voting process, that means that the developers already consider these as good ideas for future development of the game. 4th class covers the discussion of 4th class as well as a higher limit of classes and as Julius pointed out the issue of level caps is closely related. If we examine the card for adding a 4th class slot we can see a pink dependency label that says UI refactor under which is also a card without votes placed in the Ice Box. The reason the UI refactor is in the Ice Box section is because they haven't figured out a way they would like to do it yet. Until they figure that out there wont be progress on the UI refactor card, and until the UI refactor card has had progress there wont be progress on the 4th class card.

There are also other similarly named cards such as the GUI overhaul card which actually aims to do something entirely different and isn't relevant to the topic.

The reasonable conclusion is that they want to do it but it's on hold until they finish the UI stuff which is also on hold until they have time to research how to do that in the best way.

You could however make the argument that a level "number" doesn't have the same impact or space requirement on the UI so they could start by unhardcoding the level cap for modders first. That's the suggestion I would make.

That's an excellent idea. @JuliusBorisov anything against it?

JuliusBorisov

https://trello.com/c/N1nf91X1/169-unhardcode-the-level-cap

Dark_Ansem

JuliusBorisov said:

https://trello.com/c/N1nf91X1/169-unhardcode-the-level-cap

Thank you.

ricoyung

There is already a persistent world server that has essentially no cap to levels (the exception being the exp cap built into NWN) The server name is Aventia and in reality the exp cap works out to about level 2072 or there abouts, there are several players there level 1000+ and one so far that was close to the max but had some issues so he took it back down to level 2100 where it seems stable. oh and the characters and mobs/bosses damage, AC,HP, spells, summons all scale there.really an amazing server imo (unique).
I don't think any cap, except for the exp one would be a great idea, could possibly stifle later modders from pursuing this type of world.
And I do like the idea of being able to take 4 classes, I thought about it when playing a level 60 server where I would think "I could easily fit another class in here" *drools

Edit: Quote from player @ Aventia reached level 2072: "The largest 32 bit integer is 2,147,483,647 so that is the maximum xp a toon can receive. I reached this amount tonight at level 2072"

Dark_Ansem

ricoyung said:

There is already a persistent world server that has essentially no cap to levels (the exception being the exp cap built into NWN) The server name is Aventia and in reality the exp cap works out to about level 2072 or there abouts, there are several players there level 1000+ and one so far that was close to the max but had some issues so he took it back down to level 2100 where it seems stable. oh and the characters and mobs/bosses damage, AC,HP, spells, summons all scale there.really an amazing server imo (unique).
I don't think any cap, except for the exp one would be a great idea, could possibly stifle later modders from pursuing this type of world.
And I do like the idea of being able to take 4 classes, I thought about it when playing a level 60 server where I would think "I could easily fit another class in here" *drools

Edit: Quote from player @ Aventia reached level 2072: "The largest 32 bit integer is 2,147,483,647 so that is the maximum xp a toon can receive. I reached this amount tonight at level 2072"

That sounds slightly impossible

ricoyung

Dark_Ansem said: That sounds slightly impossible

I totally agree, but like the old saying goes; "when in doubt try it out" All you have to do is join the server and make a toon or join the forum to find out for sure....though you would need the Diamond or 1.69 version but NO haks are required.Oh and dont take any subrace,,you take after login. My highest level toon there is a pitiful 226, my next level will be at 25425000 exp currently at 25407886 exp.(from my character sheet).

Sherincall

ricoyung said:

Dark_Ansem said: That sounds slightly impossible

I totally agree, but like the old saying goes; "when in doubt try it out" All you have to do is join the server and make a toon or join the forum to find out for sure....though you would need the Diamond or 1.69 version but NO haks are required.Oh and dont take any subrace,,you take after login. My highest level toon there is a pitiful 226, my next level will be at 25425000 exp currently at 25407886 exp.(from my character sheet).

Just to clarify for people reading this and thinking "if a PW can do it, why doesn't Beamdog do it?", these PWs do not have levels above 40 in terms of core game mechanics. There's a few approaches to simulating this, most involve taking a snapshot of your stats/skills/feats/etc, merging them all into a single level, then letting you level further.
One option would be to wait till someone hits 40, then level them back to 20 but keep all their stats. Or maybe you keep repeating the 39->40 levelup each time. Some servers don't bother with this and have the levels after 40 be done through a dialog instead of the standard levelup screen.

Point is, there is no simple switch that you can turn on and get infinite levels in NWN. The assumption of 40 levels per PC is hardcoded in a few places, and the assumption of 60 levels per any creature even more so. Just unlocking that would require nontrivial work, and then you'd actually need to set up the progression tables and rules for all those levels, which is a significant game design issue.

ricoyung

@Sherincall
Yes, you are correct, I have played at 4 different over level 40 servers, they all had a different approach to over 40 level, but they all used some sort of dialogue and only one of these (a level 60 server) granted
Feats (and some custom feats), skills, and abilities post 40, but that server was so heavily modded that it died and won't be back soon unless...idk
Anyways thanks for that clarification, guess I took it for granted

Sherincall

Re-reading my post, I just want to clarify that I have mad respect for the changes those PWs have done. I did not want to diminish that work at all, just to note that it is different to what is being proposed here.

FreshLemonBun

There is also an NWN2 server that is entirely skill based instead of class based, the only real difference is that they use custom gui panels instead of dialogs to hide the regular mechanics. NWN2 also has functions like AddFeat already built in so it's much easier to do these sorts of things before needing NWNX. Effectively you never go beyond level 1 and it fakes character advancement with gui scripting but if it looks real then who says it isn't?

Verilazic

I support un-hardcoding the level cap for all creatures, or at least raising it to 100+. I'm a little nervous that it (especially un-hardcoding) might be more effort than we realize though.

Dark_Ansem

Verilazic said:

I support un-hardcoding the level cap for all creatures, or at least raising it to 100+. I'm a little nervous that it (especially un-hardcoding) might be more effort than we realize though.

how would that be more work?

FreshLemonBun

There are some tables that define level based progression. Usually they run higher than the 40 limit for player characters, but they're still finite. Epic bonus feats would also run dry after a while, as would other accumulating class features. It would be an exercise for the modder to expand the progression as needed and include the new content.

Dark_Ansem

I was more thinking strictly in terms of how to get this to work.

Verilazic

Dark_Ansem said:

Verilazic said:

I support un-hardcoding the level cap for all creatures, or at least raising it to 100+. I'm a little nervous that it (especially un-hardcoding) might be more effort than we realize though.

how would that be more work?

Hard to say. I only know enough to be nervous, not to actually know what it could be. Sometimes something like this can be as easy as adding a variable to the .ini and referencing that. In a worse case I suppose it could mean going back and recoding every single reference to the number 40. Maybe there's the equivalent to a "LevelTo2" function, a "LevelTo3" function, and they're unique for each level such that to add more levels, BD would either have to add a similar function for every single additional level, or else recode the entire process from scratch to be scalable.

Again, point is I don't know. I'm just nervous. It's an old program.