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I would like to renew the call for higher level cap and more than 3 classes

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Comments

  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 711
    I doubt they would have a unique function for every level, it seems that would just make it more complicated than it has to be when they already have a system of parsing lists of data and scaling. However there are limitations on some content 2das like baseitems, classes, racialtypes and the like so when the content goes over a multiple of 2 like 128 or 256 then it gives undefined behavior. There are some issues with classes.2da not displaying any classes or only some classes when you go over, and similar for racialtypes. If there are internal problems it would probably more likely have to do with parsing extended files beyond their original limits.

    For races there are some problems which I've noted before in the suggestions thread to do with how the game is able to see race and how it could be that additional race slots can't be recognized as the same base type of creature for vs race effects and favored enemy feats.

    In NWN2 I believe there was an issue where any ability that went over 50 would roll over to start from 0 again, making it really problematic.

    There could be similar issues with other extensions of content in NWN like extending the leveling higher than 40. However it seems reasonable that they could just fix the code and it wouldn't be too dependent on GUI as far as I can tell, I don't see why it would be, the alphanumeric glyphs are all loaded in normally as far as I can tell so changing a tlk table will load in new glyphs. It stands to reason that a function changes each digit of the level into the appropriate glyph.

    I believe the change might not be too complicated but would require some work and they have a hundred and one things to do and this one might not be at the top of the list right now. Really we would have to ask on one of the live streams to get an idea of what is involved.

    Proont
  • rogueknight333rogueknight333 Member Posts: 10
    I could see this being a fairly easy or very hard change to implement, depending on a lot of questions I do not know the answer to.

    That aside, I would like to stress that if these changes are introduced they should definitely be added as something that module builders can turn on with an edited 2da or something of that nature, and not as a default part of the game. Raising the level cap possibly, and allowing 4 rather than 3 classes definitely, would utterly wreck the balance, and possibly other kinds of class-specific content, in every existing NWN module. It would destroy backwards compatibility. I realize this point has been brought up before in discussions of this particular feature but I thought it important enough to re-emphasize. I have no problem with it as a feature builders can add to new modules if, and only if, they want it.

    ricoyung
  • ShadooowShadooow Member Posts: 331
    edited August 2018
    Increase level cap is rather easy, it is something I wanted to do for 1.69 (but now EE came, I cannot do that in EE and the user base of 1.69 dropped to nearly zero so whats the point now). It was attempted by few nwnx modders before but afaik nobody made it fully work. This is because there needs to be changes to nwn client (which in past wass problem to do, but I can do it) as nwn client offers something like 255 feats for any class that reaches lvl 41+. One possibility is to limit each class to 40 but that is a bit bad solution as that creates a new cap of 120 anyway.

    However 4th class is something else entirely. That would be extremely difficult to do mainly because of the server-client synchronization.

    I think that the best move here would be to detach this request to unlimited levels (or higher lvl cap than 40 at least) and 4th class. This way there would be a possibility the increased level cap could be considered and won't be throw off with the 4th class together.

    ricoyungProont
  • Dark_AnsemDark_Ansem Member Posts: 935
    Doesn't the 4th class just depend on the User Interface?

  • ShadooowShadooow Member Posts: 331

    Doesn't the 4th class just depend on the User Interface?

    right, thats another issue possibly the biggest one, but server-client communication can also be problematic with more than 3 classes

  • GM_ODAGM_ODA Member Posts: 169
    PCs with four classes, eeeew! Might as well make 'no classes' and just give everyone full access to every ability, feat, and skill. NOTHING will ever be different from anything else again if you add a fourth class - more, D&D does not allow more than three classes as of rules system 3.e of which NWN is a licensed game.

    Higher levels?!?!? EEEEEEW! As a builder, it can be a challenge to present a challenge to level 40 PCs, alone or in a group. MONSTERS have a hard cap of 60 levels, and if I cannot give the monsters a small level advantage then I have to swamp the party in too many monsters (silly) - because, face it, there is very little I in the AI (and players is sometimes pretty darned clever AND play as a team).

    Honestly - where will any of you find a challenge if you are all 4+ classes and over 40 levels?

  • tfoxtfox Member Posts: 86
    edited August 2018
    Shadooow said:


    I think that the best move here would be to detach this request to unlimited levels (or higher lvl cap than 40 at least) and 4th class. This way there would be a possibility the increased level cap could be considered and won't be throw off with the 4th class together.

    It's actually already two separate requests, this thread was created by a community member after the one involving the number of classes was locked when the trello entry was moved from Needs More Discussion into the "Icebox" on the roadmap board which has the official description of "Cards in the Icebox list are features we've investigated and want to tackle but they are not the highest priority yet."

    Direct link to the icebox entry https://trello.com/c/qoi6QZTO/32-add-the-ability-to-have-a-fourth-class

    The unhardcode the level up cap is in the input board under engine list which is still being voted for and Beamdog have not as of yet decided to move it to something they wish to do. (So those that want such to be unhardcoded? should probably go vote for it at the below link if they haven't already).

    Direct link to the Level Cap entry https://trello.com/c/N1nf91X1/169-unhardcode-the-level-cap

    I hope that helps at least somewhat.

    Dark_AnsemPrince_RaymondProont
  • Dark_AnsemDark_Ansem Member Posts: 935
    I'm really sad it didn't make it into development yet, the level cap.

    tfoxricoyung
  • ShadooowShadooow Member Posts: 331
    edited August 2018
    ah, i forgot it was separated... nvm then

    tfoxProont
  • DFDarkDFDark Member Posts: 32
    It would be nice to allow conditions on certain levels. (i.e. Script "xxxx" must return true to level beyond lvl20)

  • Drewbert_ahoyDrewbert_ahoy Member Posts: 69
    There isn't enough epic content as it is to flesh out characters to level 40. There's like what 6 epic level spells total? The idea of a 4th class was shot down on the Beam Dog live stream and was ice boxed on trello.

    GM_ODA
  • tfoxtfox Member Posts: 86

    There isn't enough epic content as it is to flesh out characters to level 40. There's like what 6 epic level spells total? The idea of a 4th class was shot down on the Beam Dog live stream and was ice boxed on trello.

    I've already quoted what the icebox is, a fourth class is already listed as something Beamdog want to do, there's been a number of things shot down on the live stream that have since been added to the game due to popular opinion and further thought by the dev team.

    But to reply to the rest of your post, unhardcoding things has little to do with the base content of the game, it's to give content creators more room to change things as they desire. Be that lowering the general power of each individual level by a order of magnitude and having their characters progress to a much higher level to acquire the same thing (some consider the jump in power an individual level grants too much for a more organic curve of progression with regards to training/whatever). There are Jerry-rigged conversation driven systems for this on the vault and run on a few servers already, but they they aren't very intuitive looking being handled by a conversation rather then the UI, but as they were created and are used it shows a desire for such.

    Custom epic spells can be added if desired with haks, as can epic feats, abilities, normal spells or classes and numerous other things, there's alot of them in the PRC pack for example, in short character options can be fleshed out with custom content added specifically to the module/server at the creators desire without inflicting balance issues on all other modules/servers. What you personally think is enough is all well and good for your dream module/server, what another desires is all well and good for them, limitations enforced on a creator that stops them from going in the direction they want in a professional looking way is something to be abolished.

    ShadooowPrince_RaymondricoyungProont
  • Drewbert_ahoyDrewbert_ahoy Member Posts: 69
    "Not the highest priority yet" could easily be a euphemism for basically dead, but they aren't going to flat out say no. Regardless, it would be a long long time before they ever got to this, based on what hasn't been shelved to the icebox and thus has priority. I've never seen an official statement from Beam Dog of them wanting to add a 4th class. Many oppose the idea including myself.

    I'm more interested in a hakless version of the game at this point. PRC added lots of stuff, some good some bad, but most of it lacked the polish of the official content in terms of effects, spell icons, and the AI.... creatures/NPCs are scripted to use official content not the bucket loads of stuff in the prc.

    GM_ODAProont
  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 711
    edited August 2018
    Some prestige classes require more classes o enter like Fochlucan Lyricist actually tends to require three base classes to enter, which would be funny if you couldn't take the class. It is based on the 1st edition bard. Setting it to 3 classes is just an arbitrary limit of NWN.

    Proont
  • acidchalkacidchalk Member Posts: 68
    We need these levels to make certain custom things work and no matter how many times it ends up in the ice box we're going to keep asking! =)

    ricoyungProont
  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 711
    In a stream they said that they didn't think it was interesting and wouldn't change the game much so they didn't want to spend time on it. I think they're wrong and don't quite notice the desire some people have for a higher or flexible cap.

    StummvonBordwehrricoyungProont
  • acidchalkacidchalk Member Posts: 68
    Yeah we need it for our darksun stuff which, for the time being we're going to need to come up with some funky form of alternative advancement just to make up for it.

  • Dark_AnsemDark_Ansem Member Posts: 935

    In a stream they said that they didn't think it was interesting and wouldn't change the game much so they didn't want to spend time on it. I think they're wrong and don't quite notice the desire some people have for a higher or flexible cap.

    This is incredibly idiotic of them.

    KymusricoyungProont
  • RifleLeroyRifleLeroy Member Posts: 65
    edited October 2018

    In a stream they said that they didn't think it was interesting and wouldn't change the game much so they didn't want to spend time on it. I think they're wrong and don't quite notice the desire some people have for a higher or flexible cap.

    This is incredibly idiotic of them.
    Was about to say the same thing but i do not want to be the one who only makes criticism about this Enanched Edition.
    If what has been reported by freshlemon is the truth, then for me it is another confirmation of how beamdog is completely out of the track. Far from what are the real needs of many old players.

    Still the same graphic,still the same bugs and still the same limitation of the1.69..and still my skepticism about this project. Such a pity.

  • Dark_AnsemDark_Ansem Member Posts: 935

    In a stream they said that they didn't think it was interesting and wouldn't change the game much so they didn't want to spend time on it. I think they're wrong and don't quite notice the desire some people have for a higher or flexible cap.

    This is incredibly idiotic of them.
    Was about to say the same thing but i do not want to be the one who only makes criticism about this Enanched Edition.
    If what has been reported by freshlemon is the truth, then for me it is another confirmation of how beamdog is completely out of the track. Far from what are the real needs of many old players.

    Still the same graphic,still the same bugs and still the same limitation of the1.69.
    BD the EE will be a big missed opportunity if you continue this way.
    It's not about the EE per se. It's about this tendency to enforce on us the idea of how to play the game.

    Proont
  • acidchalkacidchalk Member Posts: 68
    Don't get me wrong i love the new features and fancy maps, and i do strongly believe the new graphics are coming with time, if not by them then by us, but we need this level cap busted and support for as many classes as we want so that we can go as crazy as we want.

    Dark_AnsemricoyungProont
  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 711
    I'm sure they do the best they can with limited resources as a studio and we don't know all the cuts and concessions they have to make. I do however think maybe the level cap would have been easier than other things but I could be wrong, we don't know because they never said one way or the other.

    I think the stream it was asked was from September or August.

    Prince_Raymond
  • Dark_AnsemDark_Ansem Member Posts: 935
    I agree but no trello card has been implemented for some time now.

    jonesr65Proont
  • Prince_RaymondPrince_Raymond Member Posts: 270
    edited December 2018

    I agree but no trello card has been implemented for some time now.

    I also agree, but I'm guessing it's because they have a lot on their plate right now. With the release of NWN:EE for Android OS on Google Play, the work being done on the new renderer, preparing 64-bit for release, moving on to iOS, and cross-merging code on multiple platforms without breaking what's already been implemented, It seems there is currently little to no time for anyone @Beamdog to dive into the Trello Boards. Again, I'm only guessing, and my guess is based on all the feedback received from the livestreams. Thank you for reading, and happy gaming to all.

    Post edited by Prince_Raymond on
    Dark_AnsemJuliusBorisov
  • WallackWallack Member Posts: 10
    Sorry for the necropost.

    Un 1.69 I was able to make a server with 1 to 80 levels using the ingame level Up aystem.

    I used nwnx_cool for that. It has a function that allowed you to trigger the levelup thingy on the portrait.

    I modified xptables, savingthrows and base attacka to keep growing. Limited clases as 40 for base and 30 for prestiges to not mesa a lot and It worked very well (lvl 41 warrior was Broken and had tons of feats).

    If the client had the xptables they could ser It on the sheet but level Up had to be triggered by script pastor 40 but It was easy with my own givexp function.

    This is not available as far as i know on nwnx ee for now and is a pitu.

    It was really nice to have that available ingame

    Sorry for grammar. Not my language and on mobile.

    RifleLeroyProont
  • GM_ODAGM_ODA Member Posts: 169
    Some prestige classes require more classes o enter like Fochlucan Lyricist actually tends to require three base classes to enter, which would be funny if you couldn't take the class. It is based on the 1st edition bard. Setting it to 3 classes is just an arbitrary limit of NWN.

    Bard is a class in 3rd ed and also in NWN - what makes this one worthwhile? It is an example of bad game mechanics removed from earlier editions (requiring multiple class levels to gain a class in x).

  • Dark_AnsemDark_Ansem Member Posts: 935
    Considering all updates are on hold until console release... always an excuse.

    RifleLeroy
  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 711
    GM_ODA wrote: »
    Some prestige classes require more classes o enter like Fochlucan Lyricist actually tends to require three base classes to enter, which would be funny if you couldn't take the class. It is based on the 1st edition bard. Setting it to 3 classes is just an arbitrary limit of NWN.

    Bard is a class in 3rd ed and also in NWN - what makes this one worthwhile? It is an example of bad game mechanics removed from earlier editions (requiring multiple class levels to gain a class in x).

    Past editions don't have bad game mechanics necessarily, just different mechanics. Many designers come up with shiny new mechanics which are actually just pilfered from the past and dressed up in new packaging. If old mechanics were bad then certainly any new, and future mechanics, are bad too.

    Bard was, and to some extent druid as well, a special class that required advancing multiple classes. A bard character was then a true hybrid whose character progression story reflected as much.

    For another summary you could read the wikipedia article about D&D bards.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bard_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)

    Proont
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