The Cavalier
sarevok57
Member Posts: 6,002
So i was kind of discussing about the cavalier in another tread and thought i should put it in here. I think the cavalier needs a rehaul, he is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to good for the one useless as zimbabwe dollar con he gets; cant use missile weapons, ( for a class that can only use carsomyr, is not being able to use missile weapons really that much of a disadvantage?) so i say, keep his perks, but give him some more disadvantages here, because he is too powerful for what he gets
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Comments
@Winthal
I agree with you, kits shouldn't make the original class obsolete.
This is the case for:
Warrior-> berserkers
Paladin-> All kits
Cleric-> All kits
Bards-> Skald, Blade
Thief-> Bounty hunter, Swashbuckler (arguable but that's just my opinion)
The way I see it it's fine for classes that can go Dual because in that case vanilla warrior, thief, cleric will still be used as a second class but there's absolutely no reason to start a vanilla paladin or bard hence only total noobs will ever use them.
True true. I just find these disadvantages to be very minor compared with the perks.
It has very powerful fast spells for a paladin who becomes a ruthless murderer if you know how to use.
I never said the Inquisitor wasn't powerful. Actually I think it's completely game-breaking against all spell casters. All I was saying is, he also loses a great deal of useful stuff compared to a vanilla paladin, which is not the case for a Cavalier.
The Inquisitor is the best Paladin kit because not only does he get True Sight (which basically dispels a crap load of illusions) he gets Dispel Magic which uses a caster level that is twice the level of the Inquisitor, which not only enables Inquisitors to be far better at dispelling than a Mage or Cleric of the same level, it also technically makes them a far better wizard slayer than an actual Wizard Slayer.
When you consider how strong magic is in BG2, the loss of Lay on Hands, Turn Undead and low level Cleric Spells is pretty meaningless.
I think what @Shrimp was saying is the Inquisitor has enough penalties (i.e he looses alot of the vanilla paladin abilities) to justify it being such a powerful kit, and still making the vanilla paladin a different type of paladin that would still be useful on its own right. The cavalier on the other hand isn't different *enough* with just the ranged weapon restriction, which pretty much means there is no reason whatsoever to play a normal paladin over a cavalier, which brings us back to the sad and lonely part.
I see your point, its just that, at least to me, the Inquisitor's advantages are so great that his disadvantages barely register. The Inquisitor easily outclasses a base Paladin.
But yeah, it is true that there's simply no point in using a base Paladin, since all the Paladin kits are better.
Yeah I know. I've actually soloed the game before with: Main-Swashbuckler, Keldorn (Carsomyr), Korgan (Krum-Faeyr). It was a total point and click game lol! Pretty easy too.
Now about this topic, while i agree with the frist post, that the paladin kit is to weak with the presence of the kits, i think this is true to all the classes (except bards), but that's natural. We must remember that BG DON'T have kits, they're only implemented in BG2, so on the Baldur's Gate playtrough everyone would play without kits and would only had a chance to get one if import that character to BG2 or make a begin from BG2.
So if we in fact see the BG history as a whole, from the begin of candlekeep to the throne of Bhaal, there's no unbalance, and that's natural, the main char when leave candlekeep didn't had time to learn more than the basic of his class, so make a undead hunter, inquisitor, kensai, assassin and other specialized class from the begin would be hardly likely.
For what i heard BG:EE will bring the BG2 implements, and i agree that chose a kit from the begin can easly disrupt the game balance and put the base classes in oblivion. So in this point i see only two exits, one easy and one refined.
Easy way: Block the specialization kits to all classes (except mages that are enabled in the old BG), yet the sorcerer, monk and barbarian should be left on the game, after all they're not specializations but classes by themself that are well balanced in the early levels (the monk start weak and become a superman in late levels and barbarians start with a huge advantage but don't evolve as other classes do in late levels).
Refined Way: If you play from BG you need to find a master to give you the specialized kit as a quest, this may require a huge implement and since the game will be launched in this summer, a future DLC or patch could do the trick. Remeber that infinite engine ALREADY USED THIS SYSTEM in Planescape: Torment, where you define your class (fighter, mage, thief...) by making quests during the game play.
@kamuizin Good point about the natural progression of BG, you were never intended to get a "kit" until at the start of BG2, and as you say, that could be interpreted as the player becoming more specialized and experienced after all the trying events of the first game. As for "fixing" it, I think most people would like the kits to stay, just because its more fun that way... all that's needed are a few minor tweaks here and there. Your idea of seeking out a "master trainer" is fun though, I like it. Kind of like the skill masters from Morrowind/Oblivion. But yeah, it'll mess too much with the game content methinks...
I getcha with the warmup for BG2, but that's not how I play the game anymore. I used to be more about optimizing and efficiency too, coming up with really powerful class combinations etc. but nowadays I tend to play with more focus on the character itself, with stats etc. as a secondary concern. More RPG:ing simply put. And also, I've found I enjoy a good challenge, so optimizing isn't necessarily where the fun is at... the exception is when playing on higher difficulty levels, like IWD's Heart of fury mode, I feel like optimizing for that is more than justified, almost required in fact to make it somewhat playable :P
sounds like my kind of fun btw! finding the worst possible party members and playing on the hardest difficulty