Now about this topic, while i agree with the frist post, that the paladin kit is to weak with the presence of the kits, i think this is true to all the classes (except bards), but that's natural.
I actually think that a plain Ranger can compete with some of his kits. I'd say that a Beastmaster is weaker than a plain Ranger.
And at BG1 levels, a plain Ranger is probably stronger than a Stalker too.
@Tanthalas what i mean by the post you quote was to say that on the bard situation the base class is better than all the kits in a point of view. All kits on bard class lower the lore, the pickpocket ability or change the use of bard song.
With the rangers, while i really hate the beast master kit, the archer and the stalker class are better than the plain class.
@kamuizin, i always give cernd the staff of the woodlands, its a +4 weapon, and you can give him one point in two handed weapon fighting style ( and for some reason cernd already has every proficiency a druid can have, most strange indeedy) plus it grants +3 AC bonus, to help make his broad side of barn-ness more like thin side of a sheet of paper
Now about this topic, while i agree with the frist post, that the paladin kit is to weak with the presence of the kits, i think this is true to all the classes (except bards), but that's natural.
I actually think that a plain Ranger can compete with some of his kits. I'd say that a Beastmaster is weaker than a plain Ranger.
And at BG1 levels, a plain Ranger is probably stronger than a Stalker too.
Are you referring to the racial enemy feature of rangers? It's more versatile in that you can choose from a larger list of enemies, and gives an extra +1 Thac0 and damage compared to the paladins, but at the same time, it doesn't cover as broad of a category as simply "all undead" or demons and dragons (at least for BG2). I'd still say the paladins come out ahead, and no vanilla ranger or kit can do anything remotely similar to what the Inquisitor can do. Still, I love rangers, they win in being more badass
except i believe the monk can use it for some reason, weird...
Old post, I know, and completely off-topic, but I just wanted to mention, ToB (or an official patch) makes the monk unable to equip the Amulet of Power, making it the only class who can't have permanent negaive plane protetcion. And that's why I always remove amul21.itm from the override folder...
@sarevok57 Yeah the paladin kits (especially the cavalier and inquisitor) completely nullify unkitted paladins. I remember the first time I had Keldorn join my party and just thinking, wow the game is considerably easier now. The inquisitor's high level dispel and true sight are crazy, I usually install a mod that brings inquisitor abilities down to caster level or 1.5x caster level (I believe it's somewhere in SCSII). It would be nice to see a bit of a reworking or the kits so that they do what @Winthal said, which is to simply provide an alternative/more unique version of a class, not something that's overall better.
@Winthal Nah, I was just comparing Rangers with their kitted versions. I think that the basic Ranger will be better than a Stalker in BG1, because most of the Stalker benefits won't be present before level 9 and it loses the ability to wear heavy armor (and AC is actually relevant in BG1).
You may not think it a big deal, but not having AoF and DUHM are big disadvantages. AoF especially when actual AC late into ToB no longer actually matters and you're struck every time enemies don't roll a 1.
My mage ally can toss some Pierce or Breach Magic and Contingency/Sequenced Truesight (Insta-casted in this way)
You may not think it a big deal, but not having AoF and DUHM are big disadvantages. AoF especially when actual AC late into ToB no longer actually matters and you're struck every time enemies don't roll a 1.
My mage ally can toss some Pierce or Breach Magic and Contingency/Sequenced Truesight (Insta-casted in this way)
That's you, man. No disrespect here but my tanks get an average -20 AC on the middle to final BG ToB (braces of Dexterity, armor with -2 to AC, ring of protection +2, Helm of Balduran, shield with +5 bonus AC, Gaax ring (if i spell correct, it's the demi-lich from the docks district) and other shits that i don't remember a.t.m.
Its an example, cos there other combinations, as well classes that give AC bonus too.
I'm pretty sure Gfaqs people will agree with me. By ToB Fire Giants and the like hit almost every hit anyway, making Saving Throws and other stat boost more vital than Armor.
I'd link to a forum thread on this, but I can't link here. Hmmm.
@kamuizin I think he's saying that while AC means nothing at the end of ToB, AoF will still increase your defense, which is why its a big disadvantage for Inquisitors to not have priest spells.
@Dazzu I don't really agree with the logic that you can just have an Arcane caster use those spells, so the advantages of the Inquisitor are nullified. I can argue that having an Inquisitor allows you to memorize/use other spells instead.
actually, fire giants have 0 thac0 plus whatever bonus you see down in that there window, for exmaple, if they get a 8+8=16 hit (then they would hit an armor class -16) so protection from evil gives them -2 and full platemail gives them another -4, and having AC around -16 is very usefull, having those bosses miss with 2s and 3s when they pump out 50-60 damage a hit is very necessary when they are attacking 4+ times a round
i sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees, mods aye? yeah i dont use mods at all and i still get my figther types to hit -16 or so AC in ToB, and i think ye be meaning magical armor, not weapon, but i didnt tell ya that one
Agi 18 -> +4 (gaunlet if necessary) Magical Armor -> +12 (-2 armor) Ring of Gaax -> +2 Koveras ring of protection - >+1 (i don't remember if you can use it with M arm, if not put a earth ring in the place). Helm of Balduran -> +1 Cloak of the sewers -> +1 Sentinel +1 (by shield nature) +4 -> +5
4+12+2+1+1+1+5= 26 10 - 26= 16
And that's a basic for most classes in plain BG2 ToB.
Monks and bards have +1 AC bonus glove (and monks AC in high levels are real nice and they can use ring/cloak of protection+2) Probally there other variants that don't come in mind now but this already enforce my point. a -16 armor can maybe do most atks hit 1/2 times, instead of 18/20 of the times.
@sarevok57 ah, must have missed that a swashbuckler with "use any item" wearing all that gear would have a -25 AC tho, and a blade doing the same using defensive spin would go down to -26....
he can only have -26 AC if his dex is 24 or higher, the game has a cap to AC of -20 and another 6 at most with dexterity included, but yeah when i have swashbucklers with 21 dex and -25 AC its pretty nice, to bad they are extremely squishy, but i guess they have to be fair somehow oui?
But in ToB, you WILL get hit. Even if you max your AC, your best bet for a tank is probably a Fighter/Mage souped up on defensive magics, wielding The Defender of Easthaven in his offhand in case something breaches all your defensive spells.
Stoneskin, PfMW, PfNW, Imp Invisibility. These are much more effective ways to tank. I know you may say it breaks immersion, but its true.
And for those afraid a mage will run out of magic, just make a wish and all will be fixed.
that be IF that wish gives you the option, i say its only a 30% so chance that you get "rememorize spells as if i rested a full night" but usually i cast 4 or 5 wishes in a row, so that usually comes up try having a barbarian with defender of easthaven and usuing hardiness, even on the hardest difficulty he will never take more than 20 damage from anyone, plus ALL those HPs
A high AC (-16 or more) will make a 1/2 of attacks reciveds to hit you in ToB, but the fact is that in ToB the best defense is the attack, the quicker you kill the safe you are.
Not that i think ToB is hard, actually i'm a little disapointed with ToB difficult, however i always make at least a SoA playtrough before ToB, therefore i reach there with 3.5M xp more or less (based if i do vigil keep in SoA or not).
yeah ToB at times does seem to be easy when you have SoA team in it, i dont to watcher's keep in SoA and the time i hit ToB im at 3.8 million XP and that is without spider grinding, although there are some mods on sorcerers.net that make the bhaalspawn battles tougher but the only problem is, those fights are impossible to win if you start off in ToB not in SoA ( the horrid abizigal harder patch, bad times those, took me a couple days of trying to win that battle, and the only reason why i won is because the AI is broken )
I really liked ascension mod, the thouger 5 are really cool (never tried them in hard or insane trough), but i really liked weimer's Tatics too so whatever (only in normal, as hard and insane make my party goblins and the enemies the main char).
there's absolutely no reason to start a vanilla paladin or bard hence only total noobs will ever use them.
@AzL0n Its true, when I made my first paladin in the game I picked vanilla paladin and was consequently yelled at by people who had played the game much more than me to go pick a kit instead, as soon as I did that it was almost like I had a fighting chance! Cavalier + Carsomyr + Vhailor's Helm and your a pretty deadly pally. I'm not really sure if it deserves more penalties though, what did you have in mind?
@looter the cavilier definately deserves more penalties, its way to good, and better than a normal paladin in everyway, maybe it should have all of its spell casting and lay on hands taken away or something, the only draw back that a cavalier has is that it cant use missile weapons ( ah but it can still hold missile ammo, good times) and everyone knows that the cavalier is going to be using the holy avenger so something needs to change
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And at BG1 levels, a plain Ranger is probably stronger than a Stalker too.
With the rangers, while i really hate the beast master kit, the archer and the stalker class are better than the plain class.
Nah, I was just comparing Rangers with their kitted versions. I think that the basic Ranger will be better than a Stalker in BG1, because most of the Stalker benefits won't be present before level 9 and it loses the ability to wear heavy armor (and AC is actually relevant in BG1).
My mage ally can toss some Pierce or Breach Magic and Contingency/Sequenced Truesight (Insta-casted in this way)
Its an example, cos there other combinations, as well classes that give AC bonus too.
I'd link to a forum thread on this, but I can't link here. Hmmm.
I think he's saying that while AC means nothing at the end of ToB, AoF will still increase your defense, which is why its a big disadvantage for Inquisitors to not have priest spells.
@Dazzu
I don't really agree with the logic that you can just have an Arcane caster use those spells, so the advantages of the Inquisitor are nullified. I can argue that having an Inquisitor allows you to memorize/use other spells instead.
You can link, check this thread:
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/161/how-to-format-your-posts
Lets start with AC base 10.
Bonus:
Agi 18 -> +4 (gaunlet if necessary)
Magical Armor -> +12 (-2 armor)
Ring of Gaax -> +2
Koveras ring of protection - >+1 (i don't remember if you can use it with M arm, if not put a earth ring in the place).
Helm of Balduran -> +1
Cloak of the sewers -> +1
Sentinel +1 (by shield nature) +4 -> +5
4+12+2+1+1+1+5= 26
10 - 26= 16
And that's a basic for most classes in plain BG2 ToB.
Monks and bards have +1 AC bonus glove (and monks AC in high levels are real nice and they can use ring/cloak of protection+2)
Probally there other variants that don't come in mind now but this already enforce my point. a -16 armor can maybe do most atks hit 1/2 times, instead of 18/20 of the times.
Stoneskin, PfMW, PfNW, Imp Invisibility. These are much more effective ways to tank. I know you may say it breaks immersion, but its true.
And for those afraid a mage will run out of magic, just make a wish and all will be fixed.
Not that i think ToB is hard, actually i'm a little disapointed with ToB difficult, however i always make at least a SoA playtrough before ToB, therefore i reach there with 3.5M xp more or less (based if i do vigil keep in SoA or not).
Its true, when I made my first paladin in the game I picked vanilla paladin and was consequently yelled at by people who had played the game much more than me to go pick a kit instead, as soon as I did that it was almost like I had a fighting chance! Cavalier + Carsomyr + Vhailor's Helm and your a pretty deadly pally. I'm not really sure if it deserves more penalties though, what did you have in mind?