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What IE game is the "most balanced"?

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  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited April 2018
    Icewind Dale (sans Heart of Winter)
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

    Raduziel
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,136
    I think it's really nice that different encounters can be much harder or easier depending on which class you're playing. Massively adds to the replay value for me.

    tbone1Raduziel
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 11,425
    Baldur's Gate / TotSC
    I've said everything I have to say on IWD's poor class balance. I think our arguments can speak for themselves at this point.

    Raduziel
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,410
    Shadows of Amn
    Since it came up, and by itself is not as contentious as the IWD/BG2 spat we've got going on, I want to address that "summons used to be able to kill beholders" thing. Because although it's been years now, I did play vanilla BG2, and I have to ask: did you guys play the same game as me?

    I used to royally suck at this game back before I figured out the system and how all the monster abilities and spells worked, and I looked online for answers to beholders. Never, in all my years, did I see a beholder use its physical attack on my summoned monsters. It always used Death Ray first. I'm still trying to figure out why other people keep making this assertion that's never remotely been true in my own experience. And since it's brought up as a criticism of BG2's balance, I can't take that argument seriously, because I've never known this alleged exploit to have actually existed.

    semiticgodtbone1
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 11,425
    Baldur's Gate / TotSC
    Something is (was? did it change?) immune to the death ray effect. I used that to buy time for my other characters to take them down ranged. I wish I could remember, as I haven't used it since the EE's gave access to the shield. The three summons I used the most were Aerial Servant, Fire Elemental, and the undead summoning spell. Maybe it was one of those?

  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,410
    Shadows of Amn
    Can't possibly be Animate Dead. That was always my go-to when I was foolish enough to think that would work. Maybe summoned fiends might work, but I'd never do that, since you don't get XP when they kill something. Just as importantly, being immune to the death ray isn't the same as "causing the beholder AI to not use its rays," which is the claim I keep hearing, and I don't think any normal summon besides skeleton warriors could possibly survive the other beholder rays anyways, so it still doesn't sound like a magic bullet.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 11,425
    Baldur's Gate / TotSC
    No, not that they stopped the beholders from using their rays. To survive the rays long enough to distract the beholders while I killed them from range. It certainly wasn't a magic bullet, but it was the most reliable way I had to fight them.

  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,410
    edited April 2018
    Shadows of Amn
    Well, I've heard even more extravagant claims than that, about beholders uselessly using their bite attack against the summons. It doesn't matter, because I've never seen that or known anything to last even a single round against the rays.

    Hell, even tactics that should work I've found don't. Did you know that Shapechanging into an Iron Golem is completely useless, too? 100 percent MR on a monk actually will kick a beholder's ass, but although you're supposed to get that in IG form too, I still die to death rays every single time I try that.

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,380
    edited April 2018
    Throne of Bhaal
    Death Ray bypasses magic resistance. The save vs. death is also at -4 and it strikes as a level 0 spell, so basically the only way to block it is with a -3 save vs. death (or -5 if you're using an early version of the game with the nonspecialist spell school bug).

    If my memory is correct, Death Ray even used the vorpal strike opcode, which would have bypassed Death Ward in the pre-EE games.

  • Icewind Dale (sans Heart of Winter)
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

    Ardul
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,410
    Shadows of Amn

    Death Ray bypasses magic resistance. The save vs. death is also at -4 and it strikes as a level 0 spell, so basically the only way to block it is with a -3 save vs. death (or -5 if you're using an early version of the game with the nonspecialist spell school bug).

    If my memory is correct, Death Ray even used the vorpal strike opcode, which would have bypassed Death Ward in the pre-EE games.

    Well, I suspected that might be the case, but explains a lot. A monk doesn't get MR at all until level 14, at which point their death save is 4. Throw in a ring of protection +2 and the Ring of Gaxx, and you're already down to 0. Doesn't take much more get complete immunity at that point.

  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 859
    edited April 2018
    Icewind Dale (sans Heart of Winter)

    Death Ray bypasses magic resistance. The save vs. death is also at -4 and it strikes as a level 0 spell, so basically the only way to block it is with a -3 save vs. death (or -5 if you're using an early version of the game with the nonspecialist spell school bug).

    If my memory is correct, Death Ray even used the vorpal strike opcode, which would have bypassed Death Ward in the pre-EE games.

    Well, I suspected that might be the case, but explains a lot. A monk doesn't get MR at all until level 14, at which point their death save is 4. Throw in a ring of protection +2 and the Ring of Gaxx, and you're already down to 0. Doesn't take much more get complete immunity at that point.
    Korgan recruits with a save vs death of 3 at level 9, which drops to 2 at 11 and 0 at 13. So you could add Beholders to the list of challenging fights that can be boiled down to “recruit Korgan”.

    Because balance.

    [Deleted User]
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 11,425
    Baldur's Gate / TotSC
    Gettin salty in here :p

    SomeSort
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,410
    Shadows of Amn
    SomeSort said:


    Well, I suspected that might be the case, but explains a lot. A monk doesn't get MR at all until level 14, at which point their death save is 4. Throw in a ring of protection +2 and the Ring of Gaxx, and you're already down to 0. Doesn't take much more get complete immunity at that point.

    Korgan recruits with a save vs death of 3 at level 9, which drops to 2 at 11 and 0 at 13. So you could add Beholders to the list of challenging fights that can be boiled down to “recruit Korgan”.

    Because balance.

    I'd say that's an exaggeration. Even if Korgan can no-sell the death ray without too much work, he lacks the MR to tank the other abilities, and beholders usually come in groups. He can only take so many lightning bolts and CSW's. I just think beholders in general are unbalanced, personally. Compare to mind flayers, which are a nightmare until you figure out how to stop their psionic blast, but even if you do, you still need to exercise caution around their INT drain.

    Honestly, though, my main beef with IWD isn't balance, per se, but just that it feels too much like work getting through hordes and hordes of enemies over and over.

    ThacoBell
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 859
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 859
    Icewind Dale (sans Heart of Winter)

    Honestly, though, my main beef with IWD isn't balance, per se, but just that it feels too much like work getting through hordes and hordes of enemies over and over.

    This is very much true. The most balanced game in human history is Rock, Paper, Scissors. Balance is neither necessary nor sufficient for fun.

    ThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 11,425
    Baldur's Gate / TotSC
    SomeSort said:
    Well I'm hungry now.

  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,410
    Shadows of Amn
    SomeSort said:


    This is very much true. The most balanced game in human history is Rock, Paper, Scissors. Balance is neither necessary nor sufficient for fun.

    Perhaps one can say that tic-tac-toe is still more balanced, since optimal play and victory are entirely incompatible.

    [Deleted User]ThacoBell
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,996
    SomeSort said:

    Honestly, though, my main beef with IWD isn't balance, per se, but just that it feels too much like work getting through hordes and hordes of enemies over and over.

    This is very much true. The most balanced game in human history is Rock, Paper, Scissors. Balance is neither necessary nor sufficient for fun.
    Or jenga, because balance is the whole point.

    ThacoBellRaduziel
  • Icewind Dale (sans Heart of Winter)
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

    ThacoBelltbone1EnialusMeliamne
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited April 2018
    Icewind Dale (sans Heart of Winter)
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,410
    Shadows of Amn
    chimaera said:


    Keep in mind some of us played BG2 even before ToB came out. :wink: Paching up the game over the years was a collective effort between the developers and modders.

    It's not that beholders ignored fire elementals, but rather that the fire elementals were good at killing them; it wasn't really an exploit, unlike the spell shield. As I don't have the cds anymore, I can't reliably check this, because even the gog version installs patched and with ToB.

    Pretty sure I played BG2 without ToB as well - not because it hadn't been released yet, but because my brother's ToB CD was wonky and took a while for me to figure out how to install it properly. In any case, I never checked with fire elementals, so if those could tank the death ray (and not die to all the other rays), then maybe that could work. It's still very different from some of the advice I remember reading elsewhere. I think DSimpson propagated this idea, but I haven't read his guide in years, either.

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited April 2018
    Icewind Dale (sans Heart of Winter)
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

    tbone1
  • Contemplative_HamsterContemplative_Hamster Member Posts: 844
    edited April 2018
    SomeSort said:

    Honestly, though, my main beef with IWD isn't balance, per se, but just that it feels too much like work getting through hordes and hordes of enemies over and over.

    This is very much true. The most balanced game in human history is Rock, Paper, Scissors. Balance is neither necessary nor sufficient for fun.
    Rock paper scissors lizard Spock, you mean.


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