1. Is it normal that the talk where I can ask Mazzy about her past, how tall she is or to play with her appears only right after a regular conversation (time based) but I cannot do so by talking to her via PID?
2. Does the romance end if Mazzy dies at any point?
1. If you mean, does Mazzy always initiate those talks then yes. She will do so at regular intervals as long as your friendship is active and you haven't told her to be quiet. We didn't code PID because it tends to cause compatibility issues with unweighted mods and because these talks get very very complicated once you start the romance. Also, both of us just tend to forget that PID is a thing when we play and we didn't want to forget about these talks.
2. Mazzy dying or leaving your party normally (ie not because you're doing something super evil) should have no effect on the romance or friendship. Feel free to swap her out with other NPCs as you please.
PID's shouldn't break dialogue strings at all, really, if a check requires the player initiating dialogue. I can only see it breaking things if that check is missing. In fact it's usually the PID itself not firing because some other higher string is true (Perhaps from an expired timer that hasn't fired yet) and thus the PID doesn't fire.
That said it is so easy to forget about PIDs since Baldur's Gate wasn't originally designed in a way where the player would talk to party members. I think doing the majority of content in normal NP Interjection fashion is best, though subtle reminders to the player to do a PID after big personal NPC quest moments to check their thoughts/reactions can be a nice touch.
The latter issue was definitely part of it for us. I went through the entirety of planescape torment without realizing that I could talk to my NPCs and missed a lot of content the first time around. And since the majority of our romance talks are built off this code, we didn't want it to be missable.
I've also definitely had issues where the PID talks trigger continuously because the game is trying to play a talk from an unweighted mod and the PID talk is true first. It's possible that LastTalkedToBy and the like could fix the issue (I am curious about the proper PID code. I doubt we'll ever do any for Clara but it's vaguely possible) but it was easier just to sidestep it. There's too many ways things can break.
You'd probably have to give the weight -1 or something really low. Alternatively, a global state could be set where it doesn't fire could be set to play nice as a sort of patch.
The latter issue was definitely part of it for us. I went through the entirety of planescape torment without realizing that I could talk to my NPCs and missed a lot of content the first time around. And since the majority of our romance talks are built off this code, we didn't want it to be missable.
I've also definitely had issues where the PID talks trigger continuously because the game is trying to play a talk from an unweighted mod and the PID talk is true first. It's possible that LastTalkedToBy and the like could fix the issue (I am curious about the proper PID code. I doubt we'll ever do any for Clara but it's vaguely possible) but it was easier just to sidestep it. There's too many ways things can break.
You guys have a point actually, I could purposefully break it if I add a dialogue after the PID. It's very rarely an issue with custom NPCs since this will probably never happen but I can see it being an issue with standard NPC mods. I thought IsGabber would prevent it but I guess I was wrong.
Best practice I imagine would be using a global so it would know to skip the PID, (or maybe #Weight it?) You'd have to make it mod specific compatible and check for whatever globals the mod uses for its conversations for the player character. If the mod author was active, you could have them set an extra global that would function as "My mod is running, don't run the PID" so you can just add a single variable rather than as many as they have talks.
That said if no other Mazzy/Clara mod has PID's, you could also just have a disclaimer to make sure it is installed after all others. After playing Dragon Age/Divinity/Kotor I grew to love PIDs and wish Baldur's Gate made use of it too.
I'll definitely add try this mod in my next playthrough, or the next after that (don't know when classes will be back on, though having a thesis defense done online is a pretty novel experience ?).
RP or flavorwise, I'm looking forward to actually play an evil party with the mod, since I often default to the neutral/good cast and just try to justify the group's zigzagging actions in game.
I've got a question though; will Sarevok and/or Viconia have a different ending after proceeding though their love talks? I took a peek at the dialogue file and it got me curious ?
The latter issue was definitely part of it for us. I went through the entirety of planescape torment without realizing that I could talk to my NPCs and missed a lot of content the first time around. And since the majority of our romance talks are built off this code, we didn't want it to be missable.
I've also definitely had issues where the PID talks trigger continuously because the game is trying to play a talk from an unweighted mod and the PID talk is true first. It's possible that LastTalkedToBy and the like could fix the issue (I am curious about the proper PID code. I doubt we'll ever do any for Clara but it's vaguely possible) but it was easier just to sidestep it. There's too many ways things can break.
Hmmm, how about an optional patch in the future to add some PIDs? For those that do not mind the risks.
Also...are all of Mazzy's talks meant to happen for the romance to progress or there are also some banters that depend on time/location/previous talks? If the former then indeed one cannot miss content but on the other hand it would limit replayability as during just one run it is possible to see everything.
@Rev1395 currently no for Sarevok&Viconia. Changing the epilogues of someone who has a romance option (especially one that's modded already) can actually get quite complicated so that probably won't happen as long as the previous epilogue still makes sense.
As for the evil options, there aren't too many yet, but at least Anomen should stop being quite so flip-floppy after he fails his test. That's a work in progress still.
@Mothor all I can say for the PID talks is maybe. But if we do, it would be after we code everything else on the list. And that's gonna take awhile.
For the Mazzy romance, yes and no. It is technically possible to see every recurring talk in one game if you work at it but it's difficult. There are talks that require you to be in certain places or have met certain people and the options increase exponentially once the romance starts. There are also certain friendship/romance talks that play at set moments as well and since I'm kinda obsessed with CN options, there's no way to see every possible chain in one game unless you load a lot.
That said, the options you choose during the recurring talks have no effect on starting the romance. You could choose play cards every time for 3/4 of the game and Mazzy will still give you the romance quest at long as you're still friends.
Also, as a general note, Mazzy will not romance you until chapter 6. So if you plan to do that, you probably don't want to do everything in chapter 2 or 3. Save some stuff until you get back.
"Also, as a general note, Mazzy will not romance you until chapter 6. So if you plan to do that, you probably don't want to do everything in chapter 2 or 3. Save some stuff until you get back."
Hence the note. We wanted the friendship to be well established before Mazzy would romance you and give her time to grieve since her previous lover literally just died when you met. Originally the romance was only supposed to start if you took Mazzy through the Underdark, though that's not true in the current version. We made it a little easier.
And the recurring talks do continue into TOB so you don't have to worry about trying to get all of the romance ones in SOA.
Also, as a general note, Mazzy will not romance you until chapter 6. So if you plan to do that, you probably don't want to do everything in chapter 2 or 3. Save some stuff until you get back.
So no planned compatibility with Imoen4Ever in the future?...
@Rev1395 currently no for Sarevok&Viconia. Changing the epilogues of someone who has a romance option (especially one that's modded already) can actually get quite complicated so that probably won't happen as long as the previous epilogue still makes sense.
As for the evil options, there aren't too many yet, but at least Anomen should stop being quite so flip-floppy after he fails his test. That's a work in progress still.
@Mothor all I can say for the PID talks is maybe. But if we do, it would be after we code everything else on the list. And that's gonna take awhile.
For the Mazzy romance, yes and no. It is technically possible to see every recurring talk in one game if you work at it but it's difficult. There are talks that require you to be in certain places or have met certain people and the options increase exponentially once the romance starts. There are also certain friendship/romance talks that play at set moments as well and since I'm kinda obsessed with CN options, there's no way to see every possible chain in one game unless you load a lot.
That said, the options you choose during the recurring talks have no effect on starting the romance. You could choose play cards every time for 3/4 of the game and Mazzy will still give you the romance quest at long as you're still friends.
Also, as a general note, Mazzy will not romance you until chapter 6. So if you plan to do that, you probably don't want to do everything in chapter 2 or 3. Save some stuff until you get back.
Thanks for the reply ? Yep, their exsisting epilogues still do fit despite their "blossoming" relationship through their lovetalks.
@jastey to be honest, I'm not entirely sure what imoen4ever is? So no? Romancing Mazzy in chapter 6 actually shouldn't break your Imoen romance or a couple of the others, though for some you'll have to choose.
@Ratatoskr Imoen4Ever lets you have Imoen in Chapter 2&3 and gives the possibility to prolong the trip to Brynnlaw until the quests run out without having to let your friend suffer. (Link)
The disadvantage of linking time progression detection to chapters is also that in Chapter 6 the PC is searching for their soul and have to safe a whole city. I'm always a bit stressed at this point.
Of course it's self-promotion as the mod is mine but if you'd consider making Mazzy compatible with it (in a way that the player can give Mazzy enough time in chapters2&3 in case I4E is installed) that would be awesome.
"Also, as a general note, Mazzy will not romance you until chapter 6. So if you plan to do that, you probably don't want to do everything in chapter 2 or 3. Save some stuff until you get back."
Oh wow. That's a late romance.
the imoen romance is the same way. it does not fully start until the start of chapter 6 . now why does mazzy need to wait till chapter 6 to start her romance? she is with you as early as chapter 2 so that seems a long wait.
the imoen romance is the same way. it does not fully start until the start of chapter 6 . now why does mazzy need to wait till chapter 6 to start her romance? she is with you as early as chapter 2 so that seems a long wait.
When you defeat the Shade Lord, you also defeat Shadow Patrick, who was one of Mazzy's companions/her lover. Presumably the goal is to avoid some of the weirdness that comes when you think about Jaheira and her reaction to Khalid's death/romance soon thereafter.
@jastey unfortunately at this point our romance quest is so entwined in chapter 6 that changing it would require rewriting a large part of our mod so I don't think it's really feasible. Depending on your choices, you can get Imoen's soul back and start the Mazzy romance at the same time.
However, it's not exactly incompatible with your mod. You can still have the Mazzy friendship and all the other content before that. You just won't have a romance for awhile.
@jastey unfortunately at this point our romance quest is so entwined in chapter 6 that changing it would require rewriting a large part of our mod so I don't think it's really feasible.
However, it's not exactly incompatible with your mod. You can still have the Mazzy friendship and all the other content before that. You just won't have a romance for awhile.
Fair enough!
You could still consider I4E for Mazzy's interactions with Imoen, in case the mod adds any. (Not giving up that easily.)
Depending on your choices, you can get your soul back and start the Mazzy romance at the same time.
Now I'm confused. In BGII the PC gets the soul back after defeating Irenicus in hell, i.e. when SoA is over and ToB starts. Does your mod change this? (Sorry for not rereading the whole description, but I did read most of what was going on in this thread or so I thought.)
@jastey Sorry, typo. I meant get Imoen's soul back. I'll fix that above. BCaesar did all the late game testing so I actually haven't played the end of SOA in years.
And actually, as long as you use Imoen2, I think we've got you covered in talks at least. I can double check, but we tended to code lines for Imoen just in case into anything where the party speaks up. I suppose the first Imoen-Mazzy talk after Spellhold might read a little strange but that's it. (Does your Imoen end up back in Spellhold at all?)
Also, I just realized that if you wait until the very end of the game to get Mazzy for some reason, it might break our romance quest so... Don't? Most people should be fine currently, but I need to adjust our code slightly in the next version so that doesn't break.
@jastey Sorry, typo. I meant get Imoen's soul back. I'll fix that above. BCaesar did all the late game testing so I actually haven't played the end of SOA in years.
And actually, as long as you use Imoen2, I think we've got you covered in talks at least. I can double check, but we tended to code lines for Imoen just in case into anything where the party speaks up. I suppose the first Imoen-Mazzy talk after Spellhold might read a little strange but that's it. (Does your Imoen end up back in Spellhold at all?)
Imoen4Ever uses the "same" Imoen cre-files inside and outside irenicus' Dungeon, just that the player gets her "outside" back sooner and does not have to wait until after Spellhold. (For BGT/EET it's the continuous NPC as used in these games, accordingly.)
Yes, Imoen will end up in Spellhold nevertheless as Irenicus kidnapps her as soon as the PC gets to Brynnlaw. She is also taken at the Promenade as normal, just being released soon after so she returns to the PC in the slums after talking to Gaelan.
What other mods need to take into consideration is that your NPC meets Imoen before she was in Spellhold and lost her soul. Most NPC mods didn't check for this because there was no need for it so they usually greet Imoen with "so, you are a bBhaalspawn, too" or "CHARNAME came all this way to save you" which doesn't make sense in chapter 2...
Also, any NPC-PC dialogues about Imoen being in Spellhold should not trigger if she is not, obviously.
@jastey If Imoen gets kidnapped as soon as you hit Brynnlaw then I think the majority of this mod should work fine as is. We don't have that much Imoen content. About the only thing I'd need to turn off is the 'I need to rescue Imoen dialogue options'. Does your mod set an easy global I can use to turn those off?
Yes, if you want to prevent anything from happen that should fire when Imoen gets kidnapped and stays that way as normal but not if she is back then include the trigger "Global("C#IM_ImoenStays","GLOBAL",0)". This is set to "1" the moment she returns in chapter 2 with I4E but the contents will fire as normal in case I4E is not installed. There is more info on compatibility inside the I4E readme.
No problem. Seems like the least I can do after all the help you've given me ? And I'll double check our code, but I think it's really only a couple talks I'd need to change.
1 Mazzy talk, a couple CN responses and one line in the Mazzy joining order quest should cover it. I'm pretty sure we even coded Imoen lines when you get Clara, just in case someone made a mod like this.
Comments
1. Is it normal that the talk where I can ask Mazzy about her past, how tall she is or to play with her appears only right after a regular conversation (time based) but I cannot do so by talking to her via PID?
2. Does the romance end if Mazzy dies at any point?
1. If you mean, does Mazzy always initiate those talks then yes. She will do so at regular intervals as long as your friendship is active and you haven't told her to be quiet. We didn't code PID because it tends to cause compatibility issues with unweighted mods and because these talks get very very complicated once you start the romance. Also, both of us just tend to forget that PID is a thing when we play and we didn't want to forget about these talks.
2. Mazzy dying or leaving your party normally (ie not because you're doing something super evil) should have no effect on the romance or friendship. Feel free to swap her out with other NPCs as you please.
That said it is so easy to forget about PIDs since Baldur's Gate wasn't originally designed in a way where the player would talk to party members. I think doing the majority of content in normal NP Interjection fashion is best, though subtle reminders to the player to do a PID after big personal NPC quest moments to check their thoughts/reactions can be a nice touch.
I've also definitely had issues where the PID talks trigger continuously because the game is trying to play a talk from an unweighted mod and the PID talk is true first. It's possible that LastTalkedToBy and the like could fix the issue (I am curious about the proper PID code. I doubt we'll ever do any for Clara but it's vaguely possible) but it was easier just to sidestep it. There's too many ways things can break.
I've never had PIDs play nice with other mods. If any mod has them, I see borked dialogue elsewhere. Removing the components that has PIDs fixes it.
You guys have a point actually, I could purposefully break it if I add a dialogue after the PID. It's very rarely an issue with custom NPCs since this will probably never happen but I can see it being an issue with standard NPC mods. I thought IsGabber would prevent it but I guess I was wrong.
Best practice I imagine would be using a global so it would know to skip the PID, (or maybe #Weight it?) You'd have to make it mod specific compatible and check for whatever globals the mod uses for its conversations for the player character. If the mod author was active, you could have them set an extra global that would function as "My mod is running, don't run the PID" so you can just add a single variable rather than as many as they have talks.
That said if no other Mazzy/Clara mod has PID's, you could also just have a disclaimer to make sure it is installed after all others. After playing Dragon Age/Divinity/Kotor I grew to love PIDs and wish Baldur's Gate made use of it too.
RP or flavorwise, I'm looking forward to actually play an evil party with the mod, since I often default to the neutral/good cast and just try to justify the group's zigzagging actions in game.
I've got a question though; will Sarevok and/or Viconia have a different ending after proceeding though their love talks? I took a peek at the dialogue file and it got me curious ?
Hmmm, how about an optional patch in the future to add some PIDs? For those that do not mind the risks.
Also...are all of Mazzy's talks meant to happen for the romance to progress or there are also some banters that depend on time/location/previous talks? If the former then indeed one cannot miss content but on the other hand it would limit replayability as during just one run it is possible to see everything.
As for the evil options, there aren't too many yet, but at least Anomen should stop being quite so flip-floppy after he fails his test. That's a work in progress still.
@Mothor all I can say for the PID talks is maybe. But if we do, it would be after we code everything else on the list. And that's gonna take awhile.
For the Mazzy romance, yes and no. It is technically possible to see every recurring talk in one game if you work at it but it's difficult. There are talks that require you to be in certain places or have met certain people and the options increase exponentially once the romance starts. There are also certain friendship/romance talks that play at set moments as well and since I'm kinda obsessed with CN options, there's no way to see every possible chain in one game unless you load a lot.
That said, the options you choose during the recurring talks have no effect on starting the romance. You could choose play cards every time for 3/4 of the game and Mazzy will still give you the romance quest at long as you're still friends.
Also, as a general note, Mazzy will not romance you until chapter 6. So if you plan to do that, you probably don't want to do everything in chapter 2 or 3. Save some stuff until you get back.
Oh wow. That's a late romance.
And the recurring talks do continue into TOB so you don't have to worry about trying to get all of the romance ones in SOA.
Thanks for the reply ? Yep, their exsisting epilogues still do fit despite their "blossoming" relationship through their lovetalks.
The disadvantage of linking time progression detection to chapters is also that in Chapter 6 the PC is searching for their soul and have to safe a whole city. I'm always a bit stressed at this point.
Of course it's self-promotion as the mod is mine but if you'd consider making Mazzy compatible with it (in a way that the player can give Mazzy enough time in chapters2&3 in case I4E is installed) that would be awesome.
the imoen romance is the same way. it does not fully start until the start of chapter 6 . now why does mazzy need to wait till chapter 6 to start her romance? she is with you as early as chapter 2 so that seems a long wait.
@Ratatoskr explained above, but to be clear-
However, it's not exactly incompatible with your mod. You can still have the Mazzy friendship and all the other content before that. You just won't have a romance for awhile.
You could still consider I4E for Mazzy's interactions with Imoen, in case the mod adds any.
Now I'm confused. In BGII the PC gets the soul back after defeating Irenicus in hell, i.e. when SoA is over and ToB starts. Does your mod change this? (Sorry for not rereading the whole description, but I did read most of what was going on in this thread or so I thought.)
And actually, as long as you use Imoen2, I think we've got you covered in talks at least. I can double check, but we tended to code lines for Imoen just in case into anything where the party speaks up. I suppose the first Imoen-Mazzy talk after Spellhold might read a little strange but that's it. (Does your Imoen end up back in Spellhold at all?)
Imoen4Ever uses the "same" Imoen cre-files inside and outside irenicus' Dungeon, just that the player gets her "outside" back sooner and does not have to wait until after Spellhold. (For BGT/EET it's the continuous NPC as used in these games, accordingly.)
Yes, Imoen will end up in Spellhold nevertheless as Irenicus kidnapps her as soon as the PC gets to Brynnlaw. She is also taken at the Promenade as normal, just being released soon after so she returns to the PC in the slums after talking to Gaelan.
What other mods need to take into consideration is that your NPC meets Imoen before she was in Spellhold and lost her soul. Most NPC mods didn't check for this because there was no need for it so they usually greet Imoen with "so, you are a bBhaalspawn, too" or "CHARNAME came all this way to save you" which doesn't make sense in chapter 2...
Also, any NPC-PC dialogues about Imoen being in Spellhold should not trigger if she is not, obviously.
Thanks in advance!
1 Mazzy talk, a couple CN responses and one line in the Mazzy joining order quest should cover it. I'm pretty sure we even coded Imoen lines when you get Clara, just in case someone made a mod like this.