Shadow druids: should they be a kit, or merely an informal association?

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ThacoBell

I always thought of them as a loose association. No kit.

deltago

Sounds like you want to create a Druid of Shar kit.

A Druid that protects caverns and other dark places from intruders and light. Knowing the secrets of the fungi that grow there and poison abilities and keeping such information secret.

Being a NE God, N characters would be able to worship her, and she in return could grant special favours with the shadow weave.

Contemplative_Hamster

It's a cool concept but you've got the acolyte of shar, priest of mask, some other dudes with shadow magic access, and the shadow mystic as well, who i've thought of as a sort-of shadow-based druid. Is there really conceptual room for more?

elminster

I think its really more of like a loose association of druids with a similar goal. Having said that, you could make a druid kit that has more offensive spell options. Something similar to the avenger but that instead maybe grants

Burning Hands, Web, Carrion Summons (as a level 3 spell), Ice Storm, Wyvern Call (as a level 5 spell), and Shadow Door (as a level 6 spell)

(these are just fairly tame suggestions, there may be more thematic spells to pick as well that would be more effective)

Raduziel

If you are willing to treat the branches (Arctic, Jungle, Mountain, Desert, etc) as kits, there is no harm in treating the Shadow Druids as a kit, but they aren't (as the branches also aren't).

By PnP (The Complete Druid's Handbook) the Shadow Druid is just a Circle an is made of druids from several kits and branches.

So a druid character may have a branch, a kit, a Circle and a Grove. The scenario establishes some limits (a Grove is controlled by a Circle, not every Circle accepts every kit or has a Grove in every branch).

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Raduziel

DoF will have a component for Faldorn, but it will not be related to a Shadow Druid kit. I'll make her a Druid of Malar, as this god is commonly revered by that Circle.

The way PnP treats kits is very different to the way IE treats them. In PnP, the kit has more roleplay/social emphasis than a powergaming one; just check how many kits have as feature bonuses or penalties to reaction rolls and pretty much nothing else.

As an example, accordingly to PnP, nothing that DoF does would be actual kits. So yeah, don't let PnP restrain you from doing your gig, I'll know the result will be awesome (but somehow heretic to a PnP purist like me )

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Raduziel

I want to make a mod, apart from DoF, that will mess with the branches thing. Also some tinkering with the Rangers (like a rework of the Archer). But that's a future project.

I could put that inside DoF but would be beyond that mod's scope and it is already huge as it is.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to see the results of your work.

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Raduziel

subtledoctor said:

Raduziel said:

I want to make a mod, apart from DoF, that will mess with the branches thing.

I was working on doing that - making it a two-step process, choose a branch in character generation and then choose a kit via dialogue. Or vice-versa. But the more I thought about it, the less sense it made. There just wasn't enough functional benefit to make it worth it. Plus how do you reconcile the branches with a history of "you've never left Candlekeep?"

The way to do it would be as an quest mod: go on an adventure, meet some NPCs from this to that branch, maybe get the chance to become an honorary member. Something like that. But it would be well beyond the scope of my free time and technical abilities.

My plan is simpler: branch = kit. Period.

Don't let the "you've never left Candlekeep" restrain you, otherwise tons of kits and classes wouldn't be possible. You never left Candlekeep, but you are a Priest of Talos. You never left Candlekeep, but you are a Barbarian. You never left Candlekeep, but you are a Druid. You never left Candlekeep, but you are a Bounty Hunter. You never left Candlekeep, but you are a Ranger. And the list goes on.

Some of those can be poorly justified, but the vast majority can't be justified at all. That's why I've decide to not give a damn about this "You never left Candlekeep" and that's one of the reasons that IWD is a better game than BG IMO.

Chronicler

If shadow druids are a kit then I think Seniyad's opposing faction of druids should be a kit too.

Kamigoroshi

I think a Shadow Druid kit shoudn't actually be connected to things like the Shadows Weave or the Plane of Shadows (although the idea of having kind of a "planewalking druid" seems rather fun to play with. We did encounter Mourns-for-Trees in PST after all.)

To me, the Shadow Druid circle focuses on the not-so-nice aspects of nature. My first reaction would to kind of give them focus in stealthy abilities: camouflage, stalking and backstabbing. Something like a thief/druid with an primeval touch to it.

Another possibility would be to give them mind-affecting sound attacks to mimic apex predator roars. I'd imagine fear, horror, confusion, and maybe even paralysis and death (yes, fear can kill you) related spell-like abilities could make it a worthwhile kit to have.

bob_veng

I think avenger is the "proper" shadow druid kit

Aedan

No kit.

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ThacoBell

I always saw the Shadow Druids as more aggressive counterparts. While normal Druids play defensively, only taking action when the wilderness under their protection is threatened, Shadow druids are hyper aggressive, and seek out aspects of civilization to stop. SO maybe their abilties could be geared more towards harm in general.

Chronicler

ThacoBell said:

I always saw the Shadow Druids as more aggressive counterparts. While normal Druids play defensively, only taking action when the wilderness under their protection is threatened, Shadow druids are hyper aggressive, and seek out aspects of civilization to stop. SO maybe their abilties could be geared more towards harm in general.

I'd also have to watch on my next replay, but I'm not sure where it was established that shadow druids are all that secretive.

The ones you meet seem to be pretty in your face about it. Heck, if I recall one of them sees Jaheira, recognizes her to be a member of Seniyad's opposing faction of druids, and attacks her in broad daylight while loudly announcing their intentions.

Raduziel

The Shadow Druids are as secret as the Masonry is.

They keep a low profile because part of their MO is to infiltrate in a Circle and undermine it from within with misinformation and intrigues.

Actually, they are less prone to an open battle than other Circles. Well, in my PoV at least.

Zaghoul

I'm not exactly sure what spells it would include but as I understand it, shadow druids are fighting against people and the rise of civilization more than other druids, aggressively. It might make sense to include a few spells in the repertoire that were specifically geared to people themselves. Hold person, confusion (already on avengers which is a good fit), and feeblemind to name a view. In the Wood of sharp teeth we also have a shadow druid that uses poison to drive a regular druid nuts, so that might be an option. BGNPC project fits pretty well by making most of them avengers but I think they have a few extra spells as well.

bob_veng

subtledoctor said:

Kamigoroshi said:

I think a Shadow Druid kit shoudn't actually be connected to things like the Shadows Weave or the Plane of Shadows

Oh yeah, that's not under consideration. I'm not a fan of the 3E/4E/whatever decision to make the plane of shadows into, like, the most prominent thing in the multiverse. My implemenation of shadow magic is no more of less than a spell sphere with a few spells of a shadowy nature:
- Sanctuary
- Blindness
- Shadow Monsters
- Phantom Blade
- Summon Shadow
- Shadow Door
- Shadowstep
- Shades
- Wraithform
- PW: Blind

The technical implementation of a kit would be something like, in the middle of the game, if you decide to join the Shadow Druids inn the Cloakwood,
- your spirit summon switches to a shadow wolf
- some of your shapeshift animal forms change to include a panther (and they would get a steakth bonus if you're playing a druid/thief)
- you get major access to the Sphere of Shadow, described above.

That's it. You'd still be a pretty normal druid in every other way. Still could use normal animal and plant spells to, say, terrorize a trading village.

I don't get the point about Senayid. Do those demonstrate any unusual abilities the way Faldorn does?

how about basing shadow druids on avengers and giving them six of the listed shadow spells instead of regular mage spells + shadow wolf and panther instead of the default 3 druid shapeshifts?

of the listed nine spells, the ones that don't seem druidy to me are:
- shadow monsters
- shades
- phantom blade

Raduziel

Also, Summon Shadows creates an undead.

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Raduziel

@subtledoctor

Are you interested in feedback about the forms you've picked for the Avenger?

bob_veng

subtledoctor said:

...

oh right. *the mod* ... spheres. i really need to focus

yeah. your shadow druid idea seems good.

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Raduziel

subtledoctor said:

Raduziel said:

Are you interested in feedback about the forms you've picked for the Avenger?

Sure - always. But there are some constraints, I'm not sure how much can change...

The forms you've picked remembers me more a Hivemaster than an Avenger.

I would change them for some fearsome animal (maybe following something like NWN's Dire Badger -> Dire Boar -> Dire Wolf -> Dire Bear -> Dire Tiger) or even an elemental form (as Nature itself got pissed of) nerfed if needed.

At the level the Avenger would be able to summon elemental X he/she may turn into elemental X.

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ThacoBell

But Hivemaster is such a cool name tho.

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