The only reason my assumption that the game will be out of line with the predecessors has nothing to do with larian though, it's all about modern game development trends.
but you're talking about BG are you not? It's being made my Larian is it not? You're "indirectly" associated things other companies do with a company that to my knowledge of them, they do not do. Which as @DinoDin said before, doesn't apply to Larian.
Yes, I'm talking about Baldur's Gate and so far it looks like Larian is the one who is going to be working on it, if it's actually being worked on. I'm not indirectly associating the way they do buisness. I have no idea how they do buisness. I'm simply stating the realities of developing an AAA title. I would love it if Larian decides to spend millions of dollars on a Baldur's Gate project with real time 5E combat. I just don't think any sane developer would take that risk since the mainstream does not favor it and they would probably lose a ton of money with such a project. Here is to hoping though! I certainly would love such a game and it's not my money at risk. lol. The realities of game development apply to everyone including Larian though.
I predicted that it might, in the future, generate bad will with fans and that fans will view the name's use as an insincere cash-grab; you somehow interpreted it as I have bad will and I view it as an insincere cash grab. And on the basis of that misreading, accused me of being biased (in favor of... what??) and "projecting." Criticizing the speaker instead of addressing the point - even if you misunderstand tyhe point - is in fact "ad hominem."
Unfortunately, you seem to have mistaken me pushing back on your statements as being the same as me attacking you. You being incorrect on that point doesnt mean it's ad hominem.
That said, I don't think they should make the game in the Infinity Engine. Sure, use something newer. Use Unity for all I care! BUT whatever engine they use, they really need to pay attention to that magical gameplay alchemy that BG2 has. Yes, a good game with a good story that opens players to the charming magic of D&D would be great. But that will not make the game "the best" in all those categories you mentioned. It needs to be tight, in a way that PS:T, NWN, and NWN2, and DA:O, and D:OS, et al. were not. It just surprises me that people so easily write off this concern, and yet also so easily expect it to be the best game of the decade.
If the gameplay isn't super tight and creative and varied, then it won't be the best game of the decade, and if it's not the best, it will be seen as a disappointment. That's my prediction. It has nothing to do with my personal preferences - as I said, I'm not likely to buy the game anyway. I'll just be eating popcorn watching the internet poopstorm from the cheap seats.
I agree entirely here. The game needs to be *fun* to play. It doesnt mean it can afford to be deficient in other capacities, but having really solid gameplay is the kind of foundation that the game needs to be built upon. I think part of the negotiation here is that some see TB as being inherently poor gameplay. While I disagree, that's up to them.
Edit: Trimmed up the post. Dont feel like arguing anymore, especially as the back and forth feels pedantic and pointless.
Yes, I'm talking about Baldur's Gate and so far it looks like Larian is the one who is going to be working on it, if it's actually being worked on. I'm not indirectly associating the way they do buisness. I have no idea how they do buisness. I'm simply stating the realities of developing an AAA title. I would love it if Larian decides to spend millions of dollars on a Baldur's Gate project with real time 5E combat. I just don't think any sane developer would take that risk since the mainstream does not favor it and they would probably lose a ton of money with such a project. Here is to hoping though! I certainly would love such a game and it's not my money at risk. lol. The realities of game development apply to everyone including Larian though.
I think your definition of "AAA title" doesn't match mine, and probably doesn't match many people's. IMO, not even D:OS2 was a AAA title. And BG3, while highly anticipated and likely to be a big seller, would not be a AAA title coming from a small studio like Larian. The difference in sales between Skyrim, Witcher 3 and say God of War are pretty vast when compared to D:OS2, I'm pretty sure. Though someone correct me if I'm wrong.
So again, I think your general complaints here, while very much valid for some games, isn't germane when talking about Larian and a possible BG3.
Yes, I'm talking about Baldur's Gate and so far it looks like Larian is the one who is going to be working on it, if it's actually being worked on. I'm not indirectly associating the way they do buisness. I have no idea how they do buisness. I'm simply stating the realities of developing an AAA title. I would love it if Larian decides to spend millions of dollars on a Baldur's Gate project with real time 5E combat. I just don't think any sane developer would take that risk since the mainstream does not favor it and they would probably lose a ton of money with such a project. Here is to hoping though! I certainly would love such a game and it's not my money at risk. lol. The realities of game development apply to everyone including Larian though.
Ok...
1. Baulder's Gate isn't AAA title, or at the very least it currently isn't. It's a niche title meaning no same developer is going to take it look at the mainstream and try to make it mimic that. I can only think of A very small number of games from a niche the broke into the realms of AAA and those game already more or less share very specific similarities with AAA games the most obvious one being the elder scrolls series. Which wasn't really a AAA title before oblivion, yet took MULTIPLE progressions over the course of the franchise to become more streamline, something Baldur's Gate did not.
2. By your very argument, EE should've gone that very route since people who develope niche games are constantly trying to turn that niche game into a AAA title. But it didn't, because every company isn't staring at the mainstream. If it was games like Magika wouldn't exist, the EE series wouldn't exist because none of them are mainstream.
3. Larian won't be putting EA, Ubisoft, Nintendo, *insert whatever preferred AAA company you want here* levels of money into BG3 because neither Larian or BG are AAA.
These realities in your head apply to everyone, in actual reality, not every game company is trying to mimic the mainstream. If every company did we would have crap like "goat simulator" we wouldn't have art house styled games, we wouldn't have visual novels, or games similar to firewatch. Why? At the fear of sounding like a broken record, none of those are mainstream! None of those are AAA.
My definition of AAA is a game engine that is 3D and graphically competitive with current games, big name brands like D&D licensing fees and if the game were to be real time then it would need to deliver a competitive length without the combat taking 6X longer than real time. It would cost a pretty penny. I'm not complaining about Larian. I'm saying that no single game has delivered 6 person party action in real time with up to date graphics without crowd funding and none of them licensed the 5E ruleset on top of it because it would be most likely not feasible for a crowdfunded campaign. Personally I have to question if Wizards would even be interested in showcasing 5E with anything but a formidable game engine. No way to tell from our end.
It IS possible to create a 100 hour real time game experience in the forgotten Realms with a modern 3D engine. That much is obvious. I know nothing about Larian and I'm not trying to complain about them or their business practices. I'm simply skeptical that any dev team would take a risk that big. With a title like Baldur's Gate 3 on the line, D&D licensing and all of the game world building that would be required in a modern engine. To risk a project that large with a large party based, real time game design....I just don't see it happening. The majority of mainstream sales will come from the console if I had to guess and I don't think the interest is there. It would be a major risk no matter how you cut it.
P.S
I would love it though. I'm not against it obviously, I just don't think it's realistic to expect it.
It takes more mental work to think of a strategy all at one time and it's more rewarding to watch the fight take place in real time.
Depends on the game. It's very rewarding to meticulously calculate how enemy units will act in response to yours actions and take down enemy forces several times stronger than yours. In real time that's simply not possible at all, because human brain can't process dozens of factors in a split of second.
I don't want to sit around watching each character do their little animations one at a time over and over again in some contrived way. It might make a short game feel longer but it's lack of replay value always rears its ugly head in the end and the lack of content is also obvious. If a TB game is 80 hours then it has half the content of an 80 hour real time game.
Any self-respecting TB game has an option to speed up the animations.
PS I should probably clarify that I'm not saying making TB gameplay automatically adds any depth to it. Rather, TB has greater potential for depth than RTwP does. You still need a lot of talent to design something really good with it. It's like comparing cartoon/anime art style vs realism - the former can be far more beautiful than realistic, but only if you've got the talent for it.
My definition of AAA is a game engine that is 3D and graphically competitive with current games, big name brands like D&D licensing fees and if the game were to be real time then it would need to deliver a competitive length without the combat taking 6X longer than real time. It would cost a pretty penny. I'm not complaining about Larian. I'm saying that no single game has delivered 6 person party action in real time with up to date graphics without crowd funding. Personally I have to question if Wizards would even be interested in showcasing 5E with anything but a formidable game engine. No way to tell from our end.
It IS possible to create a 100 hour real time game experience in the forgotten Realms with a modern 3D engine. That much is obvious. I know nothing about Larian and I'm not trying to complain about them or their business practices. I'm simply skeptical that any dev team would take a risk that big. With a title like Baldur's Gate 3 on the line, D&D licensing and all of the game world building that would be required in a modern engine. To risk a project that large with a large party based, real time game design....I just don't see it happening. The majority of mainstream sales will come from the console if I had to guess and I don't think the interest is there. It would be a major risk no matter how you cut it.
P.S
I would love it though. I'm not against it obviously, I just don't think it's realistic to expect it.
all AAA means is the budget of a game. baldurs gate was at the time it was made was a AAA game. larian is more an indie studio. it has nothing to do with the game being 3d.
My definition of AAA is a game engine that is 3D and graphically competitive with current games,
I stopped reading right here because no disrespect but this actually ends everything. You're running off your own individualistically created definition of what a AAA game is and that's not how AAA games are classified even by indie standards which games would actually be classified as III.
You're using a preconceived bias and attaching to anything regardless of whether or not it actually fit based one something that some games simply choose as a design choice.
My definition of AAA is a game engine that is 3D and graphically competitive with current games, big name brands like D&D licensing fees and if the game were to be real time then it would need to deliver a competitive length without the combat taking 6X longer than real time. It would cost a pretty penny. I'm not complaining about Larian. I'm saying that no single game has delivered 6 person party action in real time with up to date graphics without crowd funding and none of them licensed the 5E ruleset on top of it because it would be most likely not feasible for a crowdfunded campaign. Personally I have to question if Wizards would even be interested in showcasing 5E with anything but a formidable game engine. No way to tell from our end.
It IS possible to create a 100 hour real time game experience in the forgotten Realms with a modern 3D engine. That much is obvious. I know nothing about Larian and I'm not trying to complain about them or their business practices. I'm simply skeptical that any dev team would take a risk that big. With a title like Baldur's Gate 3 on the line, D&D licensing and all of the game world building that would be required in a modern engine. To risk a project that large with a large party based, real time game design....I just don't see it happening. The majority of mainstream sales will come from the console if I had to guess and I don't think the interest is there. It would be a major risk no matter how you cut it.
P.S
I would love it though. I'm not against it obviously, I just don't think it's realistic to expect it.
As I suspected, your peculiar definition of AAA title was the heart of the problem. And frankly, you're using this special definition to smuggle in a bunch of complaints about a broad variety of games into a discussion that is specifically about Larian and BG3. Again, these complaints are valid in other contexts, but they are not germane when discussing this specific studio.
I dunno man, this thread shouldn't be about everyone's sundry complaints about a variety of game genres. That would be akin to spamming the forum.
I've got to get some sleep. Good conversation tonight BTW. I'll sum up by saying this. I've never seen a turn based game in the history of gaming that was as satisfying as Baldur's Gate's real time combat. That is my personal opinion obviously. If for reasons unknown to me, Larian is going to come up with a new version of turn based combat that trumps all RPG gameplay that came before it then that is great but I'll be honest....I don't believe that will happen. It's nothing against Larian, I just don't see it happening and I also don't see the point of delivering turn based combat in a Baldur's Gate game outside of cutting costs and satisfying larger audiences for profit.
As for AAA. Sure, everyone probably has their own opinion on what AAA is. POE is a 3D engine and it was crowdfunded. I seriously doubt Wizards would entrust Baldurs Gate 3 and 5E to a 2D game engine and if they did it wouldn't have the market penetration they want. Beamdog would probably be doing it on the old infinity engine if that were the case. 3D is most likly what they are going for and competitive 3D costs money. If the argument is that Larian is not going to make an AAA title with cinematics and a cutting edge engine despite the Baldur's Gate 3 IP and 5E rules then I can't argue with that because I don't know what they are going to do.
I stand by my opinion that any developer playing with such a large IP and planning on making a lengthy campaign with a competitive game engine would not want to risk real time gameplay with the mainstream console market. Beamdog's console ports are the lead up to gain console interest and that is usually where the bread and butter of teenagers are hanging out. We will see how they react next year I guess.
Would you link me the evidence? I doubt TTON and POE would have switched despite their crowd funders being primarily PC real time game fans. Larian's games are TB, the only games that are popular that aren't TB are games like the witcher ect. Perhaps I'm out of the loop but I don't know any console gamers that like RTS or real time party based RPG's on console.
I might have got excited about it many years ago, but we'll see. I don't know much about Larian Studios and their reputation for quality product. Since I mainly play 3D games these days, it better use a game engine that offers some pretty eye candy.
I would also love having a BG game with rtwp 5E combat. And I believe it can happen. If they just wanted a mainstream AAA game, why would they want to use Baldur's Gate title? Baldur's Gate title wouldn't be too appealing to most mainstream gamers who play AAA games I think.
I trust Larian will make an awesome game, and I'm %100 sure there will be many people not happy with the end product even if they make the best game in the world ever. People have their own ideas about how everything needs to happen based on their perspective, and they will complain when their expectations are not fulfilled. It's easy to see that even on this very thread.
Again, there's no evidence turn-based RPG's are more popular or sell more. There is, in fact, overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Before i head off to sleep because it's 12:06am here, 2 be fair, tb is a lot older than any of its successors so technical just by seniority sale it technically would and more than likely will always have more sells unless we start placing restrictions (which a lot of people here seem to like doing) on what we can and can't consider tb based semantics.
As for AAA. Sure, everyone probably has their own opinion on what AAA is. POE is a 3D engine and it was crowdfunded. I seriously doubt Wizards would entrust Baldurs Gate 3 and 5E to a 2D game engine and if they did it wouldn't have the market penetration they want. Beamdog would probably be doing it on the old infinity engine if that were the case. 3D is most likly what they are going for and competitive 3D costs money. If the argument is that Larian is not going to make an AAA title with cinematics and a cutting edge engine despite the Baldur's Gate 3 IP and 5E rules then I can't argue with that because I don't know what they are going to do.
I stand by my opinion that any developer playing with such a large IP and planning on making a lengthy campaign with a competitive game engine would not want to risk real time gameplay with the mainstream console market. Beamdog's console ports are the lead up to gain console interest and that is usually where the bread and butter of teenagers are hanging out. We will see how they react next year I guess.
"AAA (pronounced and sometimes written Triple-A) is an informal classification used for video games produced and distributed by a mid-sized or major publisher, typically having higher development and marketing budgets. AAA is analogous to the film industry term "blockbuster"."
There is a reason why i said "no disrespect", because there is not centralized authority of gaming like n something such as football, no definition can truly be formalized which is also why i said it ends the conversation. Because what you believe AAA to be or not to be formally can't be argued against even of it technically can.
You doubt wizard, a company that specializes in dealing with niche... Would take a niche game and not market it to the niche? I'm sorry I'm confused, are they making a MMO? Because that is literally the only way that'll happen.
3-D cost money yes, but so does 2-d sprite animation, and 2-d gets very expensive the more elaborate you want it to be. Again you're just saying its AAA because it has upgraded graphics.
Again, BG isn't even a large IP! If this was say star wars of Mario then you might have had a point there maybe but you still don't, why?
"The following sales figures are derived from official figures from developers and publishers, along with figures from analyst firms Famitsu, Media Create, NPD and Steam Spy. See the individual franchise articles for more details on the sales figures."
The top selling rpg series...
1.pokemon... wtf? Ok i think it's safe to assume that none of use view this as a rpg. 305 million
2. Final fantasy... Haha let the argument began since based on some of the very argument made here earlier, later versions of this series aren't tb.
3. Dragon Quest... That is one point for you. 144 million
4. Monster Hunter... Never played it personally but no game play I've ever seen of it was tb, so you lose one point. 76 million
5. Elder scrolls... Yea you just lost another point. 52 million
6. Lineage... One point for you unless we aren't counting mmos. 43 million
7. Fallout... And you lose that point especially taking into account before this game became AAA It was the very type of tbs game you didn't like and it wasn't in the mainstream. 38 million
8.Diablo... And that's another loss... 36.5 million
9. The Wither... Three strikes and you're out. 33 million
I could keep going but its not in your favor... Fun fact, Baldur gate actually sits at the very bottom of the list at 5 million, a list of 28 games.So even BG proves you wrong.
Not a single one of those games is a party based real time RPG. Final Fantasy is the only party based RPG on the list and its TB. Like I said, I don't know a single console gamer that wants to fiddle with party based real time using a controller. TTON had PC real time backers and they had a game based on torment which is a real time game. They switched to turn based and released it on console. POE had PC real time backing and due to loud complaints that it wasn't TB, they patched it. Games like the witcher have no business being compared to a 6 person real time party game like Baldur's gate.
The only reason most of these party based games even exist is from PC gamers kickstarting them. In fact, this entire genre was stone cold dead until Beamdog revitalized it with the EE's and Obsidian started their first kickstarter after realizing there still might be interest. Maybe they will make a real time witcher style BG game that ditches the party or maybe they will make it a 4 person turn based party. Nobody knows but I highly doubt they would risk it all with traditional Baldurs gate gameplay of a 6 person party in real time for the console. Regardless of what someone's idea of AAA are, the costs will go through the roof if real time is used in a 3D engine. Time will tell, but my doubts have always been and will remain around these realities of current game development which are based around gamers themselves and what the majority wants and most relevant, the costs of game development in modern game engines.
Again it has nothing to do with my opinion of Larian and I wish them no disrespect. It certainly has nothing to do with what I want so it's not like I'm trying to convince you that the game should be turn based as I feel the opposite. Keeping the same style of game with updated rules in a more modern engine (doesn't have to be super advanced!) would make me happy.
The only reason most of these party based games even exist is from PC gamers kickstarting them. In fact, this entire genre was stone cold dead until Beamdog revitalized it with the EE's and Obsidian started their first kickstarter after realizing there still might be interest.
I dont know exactly how you're defining the genre, but I'd think that Dragon Age: Origins reignited the isometric style PC RPG. It came out in 2009.
Unless something else came out before then, that re-started the current run of games?
Would you link me the evidence? I doubt TTON and POE would have switched despite their crowd funders being primarily PC real time game fans. Larian's games are TB, the only games that are popular that aren't TB are games like the witcher ect. Perhaps I'm out of the loop but I don't know any console gamers that like RTS or real time party based RPG's on console.
PoE didn't "switch". The added one turn-based feature SUPER late in development. So late, I doubt it's had any major effect on sales. The evidence itself in in the fact that both games were launched as RTwP, in order to target a certain segment of the market.
@sextein - you seem to be fundamentally confused about why type of combat system the Infinity games feature. In truth, they are all turn-based games. The term "realtime with paus" was always misleading for them -- a more accurate phrasing would be "turn based in realtime". When you enter combat in BG the game rolls initiative and then your characters act out their turns in that order. When they've done their attack/s they can't act again until the next time it's their turn. The only exception is that movement is a free action.
I would love it if Larian decides to spend millions of dollars on a Baldur's Gate project with real time 5E combat.
They can't make a 5th Ed real-time combat game. 5th Ed is turn based. It's a fundamental part of how the system works. Any deviation from it would be a deviation from 5th Edition DnD.
@sextein - you seem to be fundamentally confused about why type of combat system the Infinity games feature. In truth, they are all turn-based games. The term "realtime with paus" was always misleading for them -- a more accurate phrasing would be "turn based in realtime". When you enter combat in BG the game rolls initiative and then your characters act out their turns in that order. When they've done their attack/s they can't act again until the next time it's their turn. The only exception is that movement is a free action.
I would love it if Larian decides to spend millions of dollars on a Baldur's Gate project with real time 5E combat.
They can't make a 5th Ed real-time combat game. 5th Ed is turn based. It's a fundamental part of how the system works. Any deviation from it would be a deviation from 5th Edition DnD.
You are wrong. Not only is the movement exception already a massive difference by itself since you can scatter at the start of combat to avoid AoR spells or react immediately to enemy movement, there are other major differences.
Ability use (including spells and potions) has a cool down of 1 round, but you can trigger them at any time. Your fighter gets a critical hit? Drink a healing potion before any enemy can attack him again. In TB you are at the mercy of initiative order in the exact same situation.
I have played lots of real turn based combats, e.g. Ultima, Goldbox and XCom. Due to RTwP BG plays quite differently tactically. Of course, since programs execute mostly linear, everything is discrete at low level, bit RTwP is sufficiently different from classic TB games to warrant not being called TB.
That's why I called it "turn based with real-time". It's more turn based than it is real-time, though. The real-time element is more like a time limit than actual reall-time. The game is still fundamentally turn based at it's core, just like how chess is still turn based if you add a time limit to it.
The pause function becomes kind of hilarious when you think of it like this though. "Oh no, we made combat turns play out over the six seconds they're supposed to represent in PnP, now we need to add a pause function so people can stop and think over their actions!"
Not a single one of those games is a party based real time RPG. Final Fantasy is the only party based RPG on the list and its TB.
Your whoLe thing up to this very point has been how ALL game design studios constantly chase after the mainstream and copy AAA title! Not giving any signs that you were referring to anything beyond the genre of rpg games. Then mention games like poe like for a example of your point when talking about INDIE games, falsely labelling games like DOS as AAA and literally the only real AAA game that you've actually mentioned that i noticed is FF7! Why is that? Is it because isometric top down turn based games... ACTUALLY DIDN'T BECOME MAINSTREAM UNTIL DRAGON AGE ORIGINS WAS Released? Which wasn't turn based i might add so that's another AAA game that proves what you're say WRONG? There hasn't been a single one, to break into the mainstream after that. And that's taking into account that HALO, ONE OF THE BIGGEST FREAKING SHOOTING GAME FRANCHISE TRIED TO MAKE A REAL TIME STRATEGY GAME WITH THEIR FRANCHISE and depended on where you choose to stand it was either a flop or it was passable if you ignored the hype!
You constantly referred to the mainstream AAA, so i went exactly there to the highest selling AAA rpg franchises and proved you wrong and now you are just moving the goal post. Now that I one proven neither turn based nor isometric gaming ARE THE MAINSTREAM!
Like I said, I don't know a single console gamer that wants to fiddle with party based real time using a controller.
You know what, the burden of proof is no longer on me despite the fact it should be on you to prove your assertion. Now I'm calling you out, show me ACTUAL EVIDENCE that niche game developers that make niche games are trying to make those niche games AAA and mainstream. And spoiler alert I'm talking actual AAA and mainstream not your made up definition which takes an improved technology and calls it AAA.
The only reason most of these party based games even exist is from PC gamers kickstarting them.
The only reason they exist is because THE DEVS had a vision, a plan, and a design and that's where we stop. Why because one I don't know anything about any of the deva that made the game so i don't know what other factors need to be calculated into the kick starters success. Maybe the studio already had a loyal fanbase who would've help pay start up to damn near anything they pitched. Maybe they already had some funding and needed end game funding and they were very charismatic. Many elements go into kick starting a game, you're just holding onto that one element because it fits what you choose to believe.
In fact, this entire genre was stone cold dead until Beamdog revitalized it with the EE's and Obsidian started their first kickstarter after realizing there still might be interest.
Baldur's Gate Initial release date: November 28, 2012
Dragon Age Origins Initial release date: November 3, 2009
Maybe you should just stop talking now, if you think for a second that the massive success of DAO didn't play ANY part in the revitalization of the genre, including osidians or beamdog. You're more in your own world than I thought.
Maybe they will make a real time witcher style BG game that ditches the party or maybe they will make it a 4 person turn based party.
A quantum computer calculating for the next 10,000 years can't even come up with the logical reasoning behind this that realm of thought... Why logic, what reasoning would that have to make such a big jump from what bg currently is to a wannabe witcher game? And no, before you even go down this path, dark alliance isn't any type of proof or evidence that it could or will happen as to my currently realm of knowledge DA was never marketed to have any real connection to BG outside of title and setting alone it was its own stand alone entity not piggy backing backing off of the game that game before. A game trying to directly claim to connected to another like in the world of sequels are piggybacking off their predecessors.
Nobody knows but I highly doubt they would risk it all with traditional Baldurs gate gameplay of a 6 person party in real time for the console.
Yes because as origins has showed us there's no market for that right? Not even INSIDE ITS OWN FREAKING NICHE THAT MADE IT NUMBER 28 ON THE MOST SOLD RPG SERIES OF ALL TIME!
Regardless of what someone's idea of AAA are, the costs will go through the roof if real time is used in a 3D engine.
The literal fact you think 2D hand painting and and animation is cheaper than 3d modeling and rigging tells me you actually know nothing about how any of it actually works and the cost to efficiency ratio that goes into it. What makes 3-d models expensive is the cost vs the detail that goes into them. While i dont have the resources of each game on hand and your more than welcome to call me on this. I'm a willing to bet that the even latest versions of runescape coat less than BGEE, and don't even get me started on the earliest version of that game.
Time will tell, but my doubts have always been and will remain around these realities of current game development which are based around gamers themselves and what the majority wants and most relevant, the costs of game development in modern game engines.
Thank you for proving my point from my last point with this. You have a preconceived bias on what you think how the industry runs and then pick things that fit that narrative to support the belief regardless of whatever contradictory evidence there maybe. The issue isn't larian, the game industry which is far from perfect in many ways, its you in this matter.
I think one of the reasons why modern games favor turn based is because of production costs. They look for anyway to minimize the number of areas that need to be modeled and textured. The isometric view with 2D backgrounds allowed for much larger adventures with much larger worlds and much more story content at an affordable price. Something that is not possible in high end triple A 3D game engines, unless you want to spend a billion dollars like Rockstar does. These new AAA games would be over in 20 hours if they were real time.
Oh baby baby... while going back through your post just to find examples of how you moved the goal post, i saw this... Thank you for also letting me know that you know jack ish about how level design works and cost. Fun fact coming from a game design student... Its actually CHEAPER to to make a 3D isometric background than a hand painted 2D one! It's literally part of he reason everything from games to movies moved from 2D to 3D its actually freaking cheaper, ESPECIALLY if you want to cut cost! (I'm looking out you effing dragons age 2!) Everything ,from animation to to characters, to scenes are cheaper! So if you actually want large Adventures, a larger word, more story, you're better off asking then to GO 3D, and leave 2D alone!
lol, there is no way I'm going to try and argue with you after that post. I'm not trying to move goal posts because I don't see this as a game that needs to be won. My arguements have been based on the fact that I have seen no high profile rpgs like baldurs gate since BG2 released and I don't think it's a financially viable project because the mainstream interest is not there. If I'm wrong then great. I'd love to see a high quality 6 person party game with real time elements. For some reason I haven't seen one for 20 years.
The list you provided showed no real time party based RPG's because console kiddies don't play them and I was correct. The games that sell are not real time party based games like I said in the first place. The majority of party based games that do exist are from the indie world and have tight financial constraints, need crowdfunding without the BG IP and 5E ruleset to bog them down. If Larian makes a high quality real time party based game and somehow makes a baldurs gate 3 with 5E rules despite the story already being over then I'll consider it a win for both of us.
If it's not an AAA game then it really doesn't matter to me. However, I thought the general consensus was that people thought Beamdog was too indie to handle the project and Larian was going to make an AAA title. Either way I don't really care if it's AAA nor do I care if games like DOS are considered AAA or not. I never labeled DOS or even mention it in any of my posts and certainly didn't imply that is was an AAA title and have no idea what you are even rambling on about. I'm not the historian of RPG dorkdom so you will have forgive me if I forgot to mention a title that you consider relevant in the timeline of rpg history. sheeesh.
I guess we will just have to wait and see what comes of this project. Maybe it will be as you say though I highly doubt it.
You're not going to argue it because you can't, all you've down is repeat what you've already said and think your opinion is fact and when i actually did bring sourced numbers you just saved it away.
You said nothing that was factual because you backed it up with no factual evidence.
No sourced numbers.
No developers own words.
You're whole argument boils down to, "I think this because i believe this."
At least to prove some of my points I want off to grab dates and numbers that could be fact-checked with a simple Google search instead of sitting in my own little echo chamber.
So in the last 6 years only two of those games have broke the million dollar sale marker and one of them was crowd funded. Neither of them had BG IP and 5E license costs bogging the project down because they were indie games not AAA. One of them is turn based and the crowdfunded one (POE) released a patch for turn based gameplay Thanks/
I sure do wander what BG3 is going to be. Can't wait to find out!
You're not going to argue it because you can't, all you've down is repeat what you've already said and think your opinion is fact and when i actually did bring sourced numbers you just saved it away.
You said nothing that was factual because you backed it up with no factual evidence.
No sourced numbers.
No developers own words.
You're whole argument boils down to, "I think this because i believe this."
At least to prove some of my points I want off to grab dates and numbers that could be fact-checked with a simple Google search instead of sitting in my own little echo chamber.
All you did was make an enormous post of childish comments. I clearly stated that my views were based on what I had seen over the last 20 years and you said you had proof of the contrary. The only information you posted proved that I was correct. Oh and the cost of 3D is higher because everything in the world has to be fully modeled and textured in 3D, not just from an isometric perspective. Have fun with the classes mr. professional game maker.
Comments
Unfortunately, you seem to have mistaken me pushing back on your statements as being the same as me attacking you. You being incorrect on that point doesnt mean it's ad hominem.
Anyways, I'm done with the back and forth.
I agree entirely here. The game needs to be *fun* to play. It doesnt mean it can afford to be deficient in other capacities, but having really solid gameplay is the kind of foundation that the game needs to be built upon. I think part of the negotiation here is that some see TB as being inherently poor gameplay. While I disagree, that's up to them.
Edit: Trimmed up the post. Dont feel like arguing anymore, especially as the back and forth feels pedantic and pointless.
I think your definition of "AAA title" doesn't match mine, and probably doesn't match many people's. IMO, not even D:OS2 was a AAA title. And BG3, while highly anticipated and likely to be a big seller, would not be a AAA title coming from a small studio like Larian. The difference in sales between Skyrim, Witcher 3 and say God of War are pretty vast when compared to D:OS2, I'm pretty sure. Though someone correct me if I'm wrong.
So again, I think your general complaints here, while very much valid for some games, isn't germane when talking about Larian and a possible BG3.
1. Baulder's Gate isn't AAA title, or at the very least it currently isn't. It's a niche title meaning no same developer is going to take it look at the mainstream and try to make it mimic that. I can only think of A very small number of games from a niche the broke into the realms of AAA and those game already more or less share very specific similarities with AAA games the most obvious one being the elder scrolls series. Which wasn't really a AAA title before oblivion, yet took MULTIPLE progressions over the course of the franchise to become more streamline, something Baldur's Gate did not.
2. By your very argument, EE should've gone that very route since people who develope niche games are constantly trying to turn that niche game into a AAA title. But it didn't, because every company isn't staring at the mainstream. If it was games like Magika wouldn't exist, the EE series wouldn't exist because none of them are mainstream.
3. Larian won't be putting EA, Ubisoft, Nintendo, *insert whatever preferred AAA company you want here* levels of money into BG3 because neither Larian or BG are AAA.
These realities in your head apply to everyone, in actual reality, not every game company is trying to mimic the mainstream. If every company did we would have crap like "goat simulator" we wouldn't have art house styled games, we wouldn't have visual novels, or games similar to firewatch. Why? At the fear of sounding like a broken record, none of those are mainstream! None of those are AAA.
It IS possible to create a 100 hour real time game experience in the forgotten Realms with a modern 3D engine. That much is obvious. I know nothing about Larian and I'm not trying to complain about them or their business practices. I'm simply skeptical that any dev team would take a risk that big. With a title like Baldur's Gate 3 on the line, D&D licensing and all of the game world building that would be required in a modern engine. To risk a project that large with a large party based, real time game design....I just don't see it happening. The majority of mainstream sales will come from the console if I had to guess and I don't think the interest is there. It would be a major risk no matter how you cut it.
P.S
I would love it though. I'm not against it obviously, I just don't think it's realistic to expect it.
Any self-respecting TB game has an option to speed up the animations.
PS I should probably clarify that I'm not saying making TB gameplay automatically adds any depth to it. Rather, TB has greater potential for depth than RTwP does. You still need a lot of talent to design something really good with it. It's like comparing cartoon/anime art style vs realism - the former can be far more beautiful than realistic, but only if you've got the talent for it.
all AAA means is the budget of a game. baldurs gate was at the time it was made was a AAA game. larian is more an indie studio. it has nothing to do with the game being 3d.
You're using a preconceived bias and attaching to anything regardless of whether or not it actually fit based one something that some games simply choose as a design choice.
As I suspected, your peculiar definition of AAA title was the heart of the problem. And frankly, you're using this special definition to smuggle in a bunch of complaints about a broad variety of games into a discussion that is specifically about Larian and BG3. Again, these complaints are valid in other contexts, but they are not germane when discussing this specific studio.
I dunno man, this thread shouldn't be about everyone's sundry complaints about a variety of game genres. That would be akin to spamming the forum.
As for AAA. Sure, everyone probably has their own opinion on what AAA is. POE is a 3D engine and it was crowdfunded. I seriously doubt Wizards would entrust Baldurs Gate 3 and 5E to a 2D game engine and if they did it wouldn't have the market penetration they want. Beamdog would probably be doing it on the old infinity engine if that were the case. 3D is most likly what they are going for and competitive 3D costs money. If the argument is that Larian is not going to make an AAA title with cinematics and a cutting edge engine despite the Baldur's Gate 3 IP and 5E rules then I can't argue with that because I don't know what they are going to do.
I stand by my opinion that any developer playing with such a large IP and planning on making a lengthy campaign with a competitive game engine would not want to risk real time gameplay with the mainstream console market. Beamdog's console ports are the lead up to gain console interest and that is usually where the bread and butter of teenagers are hanging out. We will see how they react next year I guess.
I trust Larian will make an awesome game, and I'm %100 sure there will be many people not happy with the end product even if they make the best game in the world ever. People have their own ideas about how everything needs to happen based on their perspective, and they will complain when their expectations are not fulfilled. It's easy to see that even on this very thread.
Before i head off to sleep because it's 12:06am here, 2 be fair, tb is a lot older than any of its successors so technical just by seniority sale it technically would and more than likely will always have more sells unless we start placing restrictions (which a lot of people here seem to like doing) on what we can and can't consider tb based semantics.
"AAA (pronounced and sometimes written Triple-A) is an informal classification used for video games produced and distributed by a mid-sized or major publisher, typically having higher development and marketing budgets. AAA is analogous to the film industry term "blockbuster"."
There is a reason why i said "no disrespect", because there is not centralized authority of gaming like n something such as football, no definition can truly be formalized which is also why i said it ends the conversation. Because what you believe AAA to be or not to be formally can't be argued against even of it technically can.
You doubt wizard, a company that specializes in dealing with niche... Would take a niche game and not market it to the niche? I'm sorry I'm confused, are they making a MMO? Because that is literally the only way that'll happen.
3-D cost money yes, but so does 2-d sprite animation, and 2-d gets very expensive the more elaborate you want it to be. Again you're just saying its AAA because it has upgraded graphics.
Again, BG isn't even a large IP! If this was say star wars of Mario then you might have had a point there maybe but you still don't, why?
"The following sales figures are derived from official figures from developers and publishers, along with figures from analyst firms Famitsu, Media Create, NPD and Steam Spy. See the individual franchise articles for more details on the sales figures."
The top selling rpg series...
1.pokemon... wtf? Ok i think it's safe to assume that none of use view this as a rpg. 305 million
2. Final fantasy... Haha let the argument began since based on some of the very argument made here earlier, later versions of this series aren't tb.
3. Dragon Quest... That is one point for you. 144 million
4. Monster Hunter... Never played it personally but no game play I've ever seen of it was tb, so you lose one point. 76 million
5. Elder scrolls... Yea you just lost another point. 52 million
6. Lineage... One point for you unless we aren't counting mmos. 43 million
7. Fallout... And you lose that point especially taking into account before this game became AAA It was the very type of tbs game you didn't like and it wasn't in the mainstream. 38 million
8.Diablo... And that's another loss... 36.5 million
9. The Wither... Three strikes and you're out. 33 million
I could keep going but its not in your favor... Fun fact, Baldur gate actually sits at the very bottom of the list at 5 million, a list of 28 games.So even BG proves you wrong.
And now it 12:56 am... This it m going to sleep!
The only reason most of these party based games even exist is from PC gamers kickstarting them. In fact, this entire genre was stone cold dead until Beamdog revitalized it with the EE's and Obsidian started their first kickstarter after realizing there still might be interest. Maybe they will make a real time witcher style BG game that ditches the party or maybe they will make it a 4 person turn based party. Nobody knows but I highly doubt they would risk it all with traditional Baldurs gate gameplay of a 6 person party in real time for the console. Regardless of what someone's idea of AAA are, the costs will go through the roof if real time is used in a 3D engine. Time will tell, but my doubts have always been and will remain around these realities of current game development which are based around gamers themselves and what the majority wants and most relevant, the costs of game development in modern game engines.
Again it has nothing to do with my opinion of Larian and I wish them no disrespect. It certainly has nothing to do with what I want so it's not like I'm trying to convince you that the game should be turn based as I feel the opposite. Keeping the same style of game with updated rules in a more modern engine (doesn't have to be super advanced!) would make me happy.
I dont know exactly how you're defining the genre, but I'd think that Dragon Age: Origins reignited the isometric style PC RPG. It came out in 2009.
Unless something else came out before then, that re-started the current run of games?
PoE didn't "switch". The added one turn-based feature SUPER late in development. So late, I doubt it's had any major effect on sales. The evidence itself in in the fact that both games were launched as RTwP, in order to target a certain segment of the market.
Divinity: Original Sin (Classic) June 2014 release, approx 1.5 mln sales 87 Metascore 90% Steam rating (7716 reviews)
Pillars of Eternity March 2015 release, approx 1.5 mln sales 89 Metascore 84% Steam rating (8002 reviews)
Divinity: Original Sin (Enhanced) October 2015 release, approx 1.5 mln sales, 94 Metascore 88% Steam rating (9281 reviews)
Torment: Tides of Numenera January 2017 release, approx 150k sales, 81 Metascore 70% Steam rating (1171 reviews)
Divinity: Original Sin II September 2017 release, approx 3.5 mln sales, 93 Metascore, 94% Steam rating (41062 reviews)
Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire May 2018 release, approx 350k sales, 88 Metascore, 81% Steam rating (3462 reviews)
Pathfinder: Kingmaker September 2018 release, approx 350k sales, 73 Metascore, 70% Steam rating (6587 reviews)
They can't make a 5th Ed real-time combat game. 5th Ed is turn based. It's a fundamental part of how the system works. Any deviation from it would be a deviation from 5th Edition DnD.
You are wrong. Not only is the movement exception already a massive difference by itself since you can scatter at the start of combat to avoid AoR spells or react immediately to enemy movement, there are other major differences.
Ability use (including spells and potions) has a cool down of 1 round, but you can trigger them at any time. Your fighter gets a critical hit? Drink a healing potion before any enemy can attack him again. In TB you are at the mercy of initiative order in the exact same situation.
I have played lots of real turn based combats, e.g. Ultima, Goldbox and XCom. Due to RTwP BG plays quite differently tactically. Of course, since programs execute mostly linear, everything is discrete at low level, bit RTwP is sufficiently different from classic TB games to warrant not being called TB.
The pause function becomes kind of hilarious when you think of it like this though. "Oh no, we made combat turns play out over the six seconds they're supposed to represent in PnP, now we need to add a pause function so people can stop and think over their actions!"
You constantly referred to the mainstream AAA, so i went exactly there to the highest selling AAA rpg franchises and proved you wrong and now you are just moving the goal post. Now that I one proven neither turn based nor isometric gaming ARE THE MAINSTREAM!
You know what, the burden of proof is no longer on me despite the fact it should be on you to prove your assertion. Now I'm calling you out, show me ACTUAL EVIDENCE that niche game developers that make niche games are trying to make those niche games AAA and mainstream. And spoiler alert I'm talking actual AAA and mainstream not your made up definition which takes an improved technology and calls it AAA.
PROVE IT! I only have yours and @DinoDin so far words to go on and quite honestly now I'm calling for sources.
The only reason they exist is because THE DEVS had a vision, a plan, and a design and that's where we stop. Why because one I don't know anything about any of the deva that made the game so i don't know what other factors need to be calculated into the kick starters success. Maybe the studio already had a loyal fanbase who would've help pay start up to damn near anything they pitched. Maybe they already had some funding and needed end game funding and they were very charismatic. Many elements go into kick starting a game, you're just holding onto that one element because it fits what you choose to believe.
Baldur's Gate Initial release date: November 28, 2012
Dragon Age Origins Initial release date: November 3, 2009
Maybe you should just stop talking now, if you think for a second that the massive success of DAO didn't play ANY part in the revitalization of the genre, including osidians or beamdog. You're more in your own world than I thought.
A quantum computer calculating for the next 10,000 years can't even come up with the logical reasoning behind this that realm of thought... Why logic, what reasoning would that have to make such a big jump from what bg currently is to a wannabe witcher game? And no, before you even go down this path, dark alliance isn't any type of proof or evidence that it could or will happen as to my currently realm of knowledge DA was never marketed to have any real connection to BG outside of title and setting alone it was its own stand alone entity not piggy backing backing off of the game that game before. A game trying to directly claim to connected to another like in the world of sequels are piggybacking off their predecessors.
Yes because as origins has showed us there's no market for that right? Not even INSIDE ITS OWN FREAKING NICHE THAT MADE IT NUMBER 28 ON THE MOST SOLD RPG SERIES OF ALL TIME!
The literal fact you think 2D hand painting and and animation is cheaper than 3d modeling and rigging tells me you actually know nothing about how any of it actually works and the cost to efficiency ratio that goes into it. What makes 3-d models expensive is the cost vs the detail that goes into them. While i dont have the resources of each game on hand and your more than welcome to call me on this. I'm a willing to bet that the even latest versions of runescape coat less than BGEE, and don't even get me started on the earliest version of that game.
Thank you for proving my point from my last point with this. You have a preconceived bias on what you think how the industry runs and then pick things that fit that narrative to support the belief regardless of whatever contradictory evidence there maybe. The issue isn't larian, the game industry which is far from perfect in many ways, its you in this matter.
Oh baby baby... while going back through your post just to find examples of how you moved the goal post, i saw this... Thank you for also letting me know that you know jack ish about how level design works and cost. Fun fact coming from a game design student... Its actually CHEAPER to to make a 3D isometric background than a hand painted 2D one! It's literally part of he reason everything from games to movies moved from 2D to 3D its actually freaking cheaper, ESPECIALLY if you want to cut cost! (I'm looking out you effing dragons age 2!) Everything ,from animation to to characters, to scenes are cheaper! So if you actually want large Adventures, a larger word, more story, you're better off asking then to GO 3D, and leave 2D alone!
The list you provided showed no real time party based RPG's because console kiddies don't play them and I was correct. The games that sell are not real time party based games like I said in the first place. The majority of party based games that do exist are from the indie world and have tight financial constraints, need crowdfunding without the BG IP and 5E ruleset to bog them down. If Larian makes a high quality real time party based game and somehow makes a baldurs gate 3 with 5E rules despite the story already being over then I'll consider it a win for both of us.
If it's not an AAA game then it really doesn't matter to me. However, I thought the general consensus was that people thought Beamdog was too indie to handle the project and Larian was going to make an AAA title. Either way I don't really care if it's AAA nor do I care if games like DOS are considered AAA or not. I never labeled DOS or even mention it in any of my posts and certainly didn't imply that is was an AAA title and have no idea what you are even rambling on about. I'm not the historian of RPG dorkdom so you will have forgive me if I forgot to mention a title that you consider relevant in the timeline of rpg history. sheeesh.
I guess we will just have to wait and see what comes of this project. Maybe it will be as you say though I highly doubt it.
You said nothing that was factual because you backed it up with no factual evidence.
No sourced numbers.
No developers own words.
You're whole argument boils down to, "I think this because i believe this."
At least to prove some of my points I want off to grab dates and numbers that could be fact-checked with a simple Google search instead of sitting in my own little echo chamber.
So in the last 6 years only two of those games have broke the million dollar sale marker and one of them was crowd funded. Neither of them had BG IP and 5E license costs bogging the project down because they were indie games not AAA. One of them is turn based and the crowdfunded one (POE) released a patch for turn based gameplay Thanks/
I sure do wander what BG3 is going to be. Can't wait to find out!
All you did was make an enormous post of childish comments. I clearly stated that my views were based on what I had seen over the last 20 years and you said you had proof of the contrary. The only information you posted proved that I was correct. Oh and the cost of 3D is higher because everything in the world has to be fully modeled and textured in 3D, not just from an isometric perspective. Have fun with the classes mr. professional game maker.