Polymorph: Self (current status: v2.5)
Borco
Member Posts: 325
The purpose of this thread is to summarize known properties and issues of Polymorph: Self spell in BGEE and BG2EE.
@SionIV's great guide has become little outdated and I thought we could use a fresh summary. It seems to me that PlayItHardcore currently provides the most correct description of the spell, even though some points are no longer true in v2.5 (such as APR of the spider form). I'll try to do some more testing and highlight the differences applicable to the respective special forms.
In BG2EE, the main difference from the previous versions of the game is that any buffs that increase or decrease attributes (e.g. Strength spell) will "survive" the transformation and will apply to the respective form even after morphing. Therefore, it's no longer necessary to use sequencers to buff your stats after you've changed the form. In BGEE this seems to work as in the original game.
As a general rule, the caster's equipment (other than weapons) is not affected by the polymorph and he/she may rely on items' effects and special abilities when morphed. However, polymorphing from one special form (i.e. other than human) to another special form results in unequipping the entire inventory (apparently a bug). The items are not removed from their respective inventory slots, however, any effect they have is lost unless and until re-equipped. This is especially tricky with cursed items (the Claw of Kazgaroth) that become "unequipped" but may not be removed from the respective inventory slots without Remove Curse. Therefore, switching in between the special forms is currently very suboptimal, since you either have to deal with the inventory bug or take two rounds to get there. EDIT: Seems to be fixed in BG2EE.
I'll be happy for any comments or additional input which could be then consolidated into a guide of a sort
.
Regards,
B.
____________________
EDIT
I've done some testing in both BGEE and BG2EE and the results are following:
Spider: STR 15, DEX 17, APR 2, base AC 4, base dmg 1d4+1 (piercing), save vs. death poison, immunities: web (with the exception of web tangle used by SCS Giant Spiders)
Flind: STR 17, DEX 17, APR 2, base AC 1, base dmg 1d10+1 (piercing, magical halberd +1), +1 fire damage
Jelly: STR 14, DEX 9, APR 1, base AC 4, base dmg 5d4 (crushing)*, save vs. death poison, save vs. death slow, resistances: cold/magic cold (50), electricity (100), magic (100), slashing (30), crushing (60), piercing (100), missile (85), immunities: normal weapons, stun, petrification, poison, charm, fear, hold, confusion, sleep, level drain (maybe others)
*ranged weapon but STR modifiers apply (THAC0, damage) in addition to DEX modifiers (THAC0)
Ogre: STR 18/00, DEX 9, APR 1, base AC 5, base dmg 4d6+1 (crushing)
Wolf: STR 15, DEX 18, APR 2, base AC 6, base dmg 1d8+1 (piercing), resistances: cold/magic cold (100), electricity (50)
Brown Bear/Black Bear: STR 18/00, DEX 12, APR 3, base AC 7, base dmg 1d6+1 (piercing),
Additional notes:
@SionIV's great guide has become little outdated and I thought we could use a fresh summary. It seems to me that PlayItHardcore currently provides the most correct description of the spell, even though some points are no longer true in v2.5 (such as APR of the spider form). I'll try to do some more testing and highlight the differences applicable to the respective special forms.
In BG2EE, the main difference from the previous versions of the game is that any buffs that increase or decrease attributes (e.g. Strength spell) will "survive" the transformation and will apply to the respective form even after morphing. Therefore, it's no longer necessary to use sequencers to buff your stats after you've changed the form. In BGEE this seems to work as in the original game.
As a general rule, the caster's equipment (other than weapons) is not affected by the polymorph and he/she may rely on items' effects and special abilities when morphed. However, polymorphing from one special form (i.e. other than human) to another special form results in unequipping the entire inventory (apparently a bug). The items are not removed from their respective inventory slots, however, any effect they have is lost unless and until re-equipped. This is especially tricky with cursed items (the Claw of Kazgaroth) that become "unequipped" but may not be removed from the respective inventory slots without Remove Curse. Therefore, switching in between the special forms is currently very suboptimal, since you either have to deal with the inventory bug or take two rounds to get there. EDIT: Seems to be fixed in BG2EE.
I'll be happy for any comments or additional input which could be then consolidated into a guide of a sort
. Regards,
B.
____________________
EDIT
I've done some testing in both BGEE and BG2EE and the results are following:
Spider: STR 15, DEX 17, APR 2, base AC 4, base dmg 1d4+1 (piercing), save vs. death poison, immunities: web (with the exception of web tangle used by SCS Giant Spiders)
Flind: STR 17, DEX 17, APR 2, base AC 1, base dmg 1d10+1 (piercing, magical halberd +1), +1 fire damage
Jelly: STR 14, DEX 9, APR 1, base AC 4, base dmg 5d4 (crushing)*, save vs. death poison, save vs. death slow, resistances: cold/magic cold (50), electricity (100), magic (100), slashing (30), crushing (60), piercing (100), missile (85), immunities: normal weapons, stun, petrification, poison, charm, fear, hold, confusion, sleep, level drain (maybe others)
*ranged weapon but STR modifiers apply (THAC0, damage) in addition to DEX modifiers (THAC0)
Ogre: STR 18/00, DEX 9, APR 1, base AC 5, base dmg 4d6+1 (crushing)
Wolf: STR 15, DEX 18, APR 2, base AC 6, base dmg 1d8+1 (piercing), resistances: cold/magic cold (100), electricity (50)
Brown Bear/Black Bear: STR 18/00, DEX 12, APR 3, base AC 7, base dmg 1d6+1 (piercing),
Additional notes:
- All the forms use your base THAC0.
- All the forms have movement speed bonus, but none of them are truly hasted (despite the icon). This means it is possible to apply haste / improved haste to increase APR.
- Weapons used by all the forms strike as +1 (+3 in the case of Flind).
- Weapon style bonuses apply, e.g. single weapon for Spider and Ogre and two-handed for Flind. In BGEE, these may not be listed on the character record but still apply.
- Main hand weapons equipped prior to morphing do not provide bonuses (if any), but you may still access their special abilities.
- Off-hand weapons equipped prior to morphing do not provide off-hand attacks (despite the character record). However, their equipped effects (if any) will still apply and you may use their special abilities as well. Shields are treated in a similar manner. Note that in my install morphing to Flind (wielding a two-handed weapon) while using off-hand breaks the game.
- When polymorphed, weapons may only be un-equipped and not vice versa.
- While morphed, it's possible to use thieving skills, HiS, Find Traps, Bard Song, Turn Undead and special abilities.
- If your character is eligible for backstabs, all the forms (except for jelly, which uses ranged attack) are able perform backstabs as well.
- The jelly animation is rather big and it makes it rather difficult to move around obstacles and in narrow corridors.
Post edited by Borco on
10
Comments
Regards,
B.
closing well known exploits, optional and part of the flavor of the original, and, as in the case of the spider form, changing something that was surely intended by the original game creators, not a bug, not an exploit and surely not a game breaking thing, is something that i really don't appreciate.
i appreciated how they dealt with R/C giving the freedom to the player to have him learn all the druid spells like in not EE or making him learn only the druid spells a ranger should learn ( i don't even know if it is still possible with the latest updates). that way made possible to play it in a new way, as learning spells beyond the ranger capability was somehow a bug, and also to play the good old R/C the way we use(d) to do in the original version. this imho is enhancing, leaving to the player freedom of choice.
to change a spell that was not bugged is modding, not enhancing, even if the modding action is done by the developers and not by an independent modder.
When and why they nerf sword spider ?
in my 2.3 is not nerfed.
why: the developers should tell you, and also i would like to know the reason...
Unbuffed jelly with base 14 STR score attacks Viconia with no bonus:
Jelly running Strength spell (18/50 STR) attacks Viconia with +1 bonus:
Could it be that it behaves differently in BGEE/SoD?
(Avenger) Shapeshift, Sword Spider: Is still hasted, netting 5 APR total, matching the enemy/summoned Sword Spider. Not that there's any reason for them to be hasted.
There seem to be two major differences regarding (i) pre-buffing STR and DEX stats prior to morphing and (ii) switching in-between the special forms (which is bugged in BGEE).
A sword spider it may be, but if they bothered to add a description to every shapeshifting subspell where there previously were none, and they didn't say to themselves, "Hey, while we're at it, shouldn't we do something about this on-hit poison since it's a sword spider?", then it should stay. That they're changing it now (or at all, really) reeks of rebalancing which falls outside the purview of bugfixing, as I said.
Though I can understand your point of view that this counts as a bug because it's a sword spider, I consider this a feature of the form.
Another fix could have been to retain 4 or 5 APR but giving up poison on hit, but that would have required a change to the spell description. With haste and other buffs and protections, the form can still be used effectively until late SoA I expect.
Whether a fix like this is for Beamdog to make is debatable. @Flashburn and @gorgonzola in other threads make valid points about the line between modding and enhancing the game, but I'm not here to participate in that debate.
Personally I'm all for consistency so I'm ok with the change made to PS spider form. However, it's precisely consistency that I find lacking elsewhere. Since I have not only Xan but also Faldorn, kitted as an Avenger druid in my current run, I decided to take a look at her form. The Avenger's spider form is explicitly advertised as that of a Sword Spider. @kjeron says it gets 5 APR; Faldorn only gets 4 in my install, unless she equips an off-hand weapon. Surprisingly, the Avenger's sword spider form's attacks poison upon hit just like the otherwise weaker Poly Self spider.
By the way we're discussing nerfs here, but what about tweaks? The cloak of the sewers description says it allows the wearer to change into a mustard jelly. But afaik the cloak's mustard jelly form does not nearly have the resistances of an actual mustard jelly. Or has that been changed as well?
The only way to rely on items' effects when polymorphing from one special form (i.e. other than human) to another special form is to set param2 of opcode #135 to 1 (Appearance Only) or use opcode #53 as an equipping effect on the creature's weapon.....
On a side note: polymorphing self into a Flind seems to hard-crash the game(no way to salvage it, have to restart the PC) It happened to me twice in de'Arnise keep upstairs and I hope you understand why I wasn't keen on further testing...