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So, where did Sarevok get all the doppelgangers from?

Just wondering. Don't remember it getting explained.

Goturaltypo_tilly

Comments

  • LammasLammas Member Posts: 180
    Funny, I was just thinking of this very same question a few minutes ago before coming to this forum again and even thought about asking about it :D

    Dordledum
  • Yulaw9460Yulaw9460 Member Posts: 634
    edited November 2018
    Deleted.

    Post edited by Yulaw9460 on
    typo_tilly
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,288
    He just hired them I'm pretty sure. From what I understand that's how dopplegangers do. They're like mercenaries, putting their shapeshifting abilities to use wherever they're paid to.

  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,142

    There's a really good fanfic "A Fragment of Substance" that rewrites the whole doppleganger/Jhasso/Seven Suns Coster part of the story.

    Genuinely horrific, you don't think about dopplegangers the same way ever again. They are monsters.

    IseweinDJKajuru
  • OlvynChuruOlvynChuru Member Posts: 2,666


    Genuinely horrific, you don't think about dopplegangers the same way ever again. They are monsters.

    The funny thing is that doppelgangers aren't actually evil. They're neutral.

    Aerakar
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,288
    They''re only as evil as their master would be another way to put it.

  • monicomonico Member Posts: 564
    Daevelon wrote: »
    There are mysteries in game that where never expolited, like the Illithids conspiracy in bg2.
    About doppelgangers, they could be related to Durlag's Tower, and checking the story of it you will find illithids again. Is everything connected?

    Well, is it, indeed ?

  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,279
    Well, apparently a colony of dopplegangers reside in the periphery of durlag's tower, if I were to write an explanation about their presence in BaldursGate I would start from that point.

    ThacoBellmonicoAerakar
  • TarlugnTarlugn Member Posts: 204
    I haven´t got the slightest idea, though some letters are found from Seven Suns that detail orders to doppelgangers. There´s a whole lot of lore in Durlag´s Tower about how the doppelgangers infiltrated the fortress, but the reason escapes me... perhaps the dwarves dug too deep, and the illithid became aware of their tunneling, and decided to interrupt the dwarves? Also, it´s quite the mystery why the doppelgangers appear only in 3 places, namely Baldur´s Gate, Durlag´s Tower and Candlekeep Catacombs, at a time when party level is about 5.

  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,279
    @Maurvir just one thing, correct me if Im wrong but I think that the Illithid's plans were ruined by Durlag, as far as I recall he expelled the invanders and twas after that episode that he hired the smiths to build deadly traps. The game doesn't really explain hpw he died but he may have spent the rest of his years as a paranoid , lonely dwarf . That said, when the demon knight took residence durlag had been dead for a while.

    monicoThacoBell
  • monicomonico Member Posts: 564
    DJKajuru wrote: »
    @Maurvir just one thing, correct me if Im wrong but I think that the Illithid's plans were ruined by Durlag, as far as I recall he expelled the invanders and twas after that episode that he hired the smiths to build deadly traps. The game doesn't really explain hpw he died but he may have spent the rest of his years as a paranoid , lonely dwarf . That said, when the demon knight took residence durlag had been dead for a while.

    Yup true, but the main question remains: why did those illithids target Durlag and his tower in the first place ? I think it is somewhat explained but I can't remember the reason ^^

  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,279
    monico wrote: »
    DJKajuru wrote: »
    @Maurvir just one thing, correct me if Im wrong but I think that the Illithid's plans were ruined by Durlag, as far as I recall he expelled the invanders and twas after that episode that he hired the smiths to build deadly traps. The game doesn't really explain hpw he died but he may have spent the rest of his years as a paranoid , lonely dwarf . That said, when the demon knight took residence durlag had been dead for a while.

    Yup true, but the main question remains: why did those illithids target Durlag and his tower in the first place ? I think it is somewhat explained but I can't remember the reason ^^

    In the game it says that the opportunity was too good to pass up, since the clan was under Durlag's wing and they didnt suspect a thing.

    ThacoBell
  • monicomonico Member Posts: 564
    edited October 2019
    Fenrus in Ulgoth’s Beard says:
    The tower was built by Durlag, a great hero. During his glorious career, Durlag amassed an immense treasure (I guess this means he built the tower after his years of adventuring, as a place to keep his treasure).
    With the help of dwarven builders, Durlag dug numerous chambers and passages below the hill, and upon it built the tower itself, to serve as a base for a dwarven community and grow old there in peace with his kin, happy and prosperous.
    But then, doppelgangers, aided and led by illithids, replaced Durlag’s compagnons. Chaos basically ensued (Durlag, being the great dwarven badass hero he was cleared the place).
    The illithids managed to flee, and Durlag decided to turn the place into the crazy trap it has become to prevent them from coming back (why would they though?). It stayed that way for a few centuries, Durlag growing old and crazier with time, holed up in his dungeon.

    That’s a third party tale, might not be 100% accurate. And it still doesn’t answer the question of why the illithids attacked. Were they interested in Durlag’s treasure ? Did they want to use the tower and tunnels for themselves ? Was it revenge for Durlag’s past adventures ? Or did they feel threatened by Durlag’s plans ?


    What if the Cambion and Gorion's ward were nothing but pawns in the illithid's great schemes ? With our explorations, the cambion's own plans, and our inevitable battle, the tower is now cleared and ready to be re-infiltrated by the illithids, should they want to.

    Zaghoul
  • monicomonico Member Posts: 564
    edited October 2019
    Now, on to BG2:

    We meet two groups of illithids.

    The main and easy one is in the Underdark. They capture nearby groups and make them fight "for their entertainment". How is this entertainment ? I don't think it is the real reason (you don't play with food).
    D&D lore teaches us that illithids are a very powerful alien race, who at some point in long past history dominated the universe and controled the minds of many sentient races. Their empire collapsed following the massive Gith revolt, and they retreated in underground lairs for a time, licking their wounds and conspiring whatever conspiracy they like to conspire in their idle time.

    We can safely assume that the Illithid lair in the Underdark near Ust Natha is one such hideout. I don't think that the fights are just "entertainment", but more research and study. What exactly they are studying, is everyone's guess.


    The second group of illithids dwelves in Athkatla:
    There is definitely a conspiracy in making here:
    - the leader laments, when you attack his lair, that his army is not ready yet
    - the illithid correspondance confirms that "the base is established, and the infiltration continues"
    - during Jan Jansen's quest, we meet "the Hidden" who asks us to kill 2 Giths and reveals himself to be an illithid (the illithid correspondance actually refers to him gathering followers)

    We can safely assume that illithids were trying to infiltrate and take control of Athkatla through this group (although note that it was led by an Alhoon, who are generally outcast lich-like illithids going against the elder-brain-dominated society).


    Lastly, we have Siege of Dragonspear: here we have again the standart illithid conspiracy in the Temple of Bhaal, where a mindflayer is slowly but surely taking control of the minds of the cultists, trying to get a foothold in the temple to serve as a future base of operations. We don't know though what the purpose is.


    Now, these three groups of illithids can make one feel like they are not only "gathering data" and licking their wounds anymore, but on the contrary actively preparing a large-scale invasion, gathering armies and thralls.

    If only there was an upcoming project about illithid invasion of the sword coast...............

    ZaghoulConjurerDragon
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,279
    The illithid participation in Durlag's tower doesn't necessarily need to have something to do with any other illithid's colony , first because it's a centuries old tale , second because according to 5e lore that's what they do : to them humanoids are just cattle and they are meant to be exploited . As for which kind of knowledge they might be looking for once again I rely on 5e lore: it truly depends on their elder brain or alhoon's , it may vary from studies of dwarven anatomy to the history behind all of the treasure inside the tower. Unable to feel empathy or compassion they would invade and do whatever they want to the clan because they can as long as it brings them knowledge and supports their survival.
    @monico I dont know if you were being ironic, but isnt BG3's plot about an Illithid's plan on the sword coast?

    monicoThacoBell
  • MaurvirMaurvir Member Posts: 882
    edited October 2019
    The illithid base in the Athkatlan sewers was always among my biggest disappointments in terms of no followup, perhaps second only to the twisted rune, and how it was connected with the skinner murders, or how Tazok ended up (alive) and working for a red dragon in the middle of nowhere, yet still had a sewer key for said compound in the city. Lots of loose ends...

    However, beyond that, it makes sense that the illithids would be studying their cattle, as they tend to be very squishy once the cattle figure out how to defend against their psionics. It is probably similar to the way we study snakes in order to make better anti-venom. Or, more directly, it would be if we didn't know how to pen cows very well, and the cows could gore us once they realize they were being raised as food.

    That said, it will be awesome if BG3 brings up some of these illithid encounters as part of its backstory.

  • monicomonico Member Posts: 564
    edited October 2019
    DJKajuru wrote: »
    The illithid participation in Durlag's tower doesn't necessarily need to have something to do with any other illithid's colony , first because it's a centuries old tale , second because according to 5e lore that's what they do : to them humanoids are just cattle and they are meant to be exploited . As for which kind of knowledge they might be looking for once again I rely on 5e lore: it truly depends on their elder brain or alhoon's , it may vary from studies of dwarven anatomy to the history behind all of the treasure inside the tower. Unable to feel empathy or compassion they would invade and do whatever they want to the clan because they can as long as it brings them knowledge and supports their survival.
    @monico I dont know if you were being ironic, but isnt BG3's plot about an Illithid's plan on the sword coast?

    My whole post was being ironic and complotist just to relate our bloved BG games to the upcoming BG3 ;)

    Obviously, the illithids capturing and controlling "lesser" races (in their eyes) is just normal illithid behavior, I don’t think any of the colonies we meet have any master plan behind their actions. Well, unless you call world domination a master plan, but we know how that usually ends up in novels, movies or games

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,331
    number 1, i think one of the reason why there are so many dopplegangers in durlag's tower is for players who had the shapeshifter bastard sword and to give that weapon more use, and perhaps they thought that players would still have said sword on their person, because except for drizzt's scimitars, the only other good longsword was was the +2 longsword from grey wolf

    in fact, there was a bit of an "easter egg" in ulgoth's beard where there was actually another one locked up in a chest ( beamdog has since changed it so now its just a bastard sword +1 )

    but when it comes to the story line of durlag's tower, we have to remember why players are even going there in the first place; the soultaker dagger which supposedly houses a fiend

    it could be very possible that the reason why there was a huge invasion to durlag's tower is because the illithid scum wanted that dagger, but failed to do so

    and then afterwards when durlag died the demonkight came along ( that is even more of a mystery why he is there ) and im assuming he is trying to do the same thing because he has the dagger on his person, although perhaps no means to unleash whats his pickle

    the demonknight does mention that it is pleased that they party cleared the keep of traps and monsters so maybe the demonknight actually wanted to use this tower for base himself but needed it to be "cleaned up" first?

    with all this being said, perhaps its a mystery on purpose, perhaps all the lose ends and unsolved stuff in the bg series is supposed to be that way so then we, ourselves can come up with our own conclusions on how these things were or are suppose to plan out

    and one more thing, my thoughts on bg2, i was under the impression that there was a fight for power in athkatla ( by the looks of it, this city seems to be a major powerhouse in terms of political and economic power in faerun perhaps ) so the illithid chums and the twisted rune chaps were actually at war with one another and they were fighting each other in the back ground to not cause the city alarm

    the manual says something about athkatla being lead by the council of six and the shadow thieves and neither of them like the arrangement, so there seems to be a lot of gotham city corruption type stuff going on here

    but this is the sort of thing that helps make adventures and i think in bg2's case it was more "easter eggy" to "accidentally" stumble upon all this sort of stuff

    monicoStummvonBordwehrThacoBell
  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 1,122
    We do know (from D&D supplements like "Lords of Madness") that the overarching goal of the illithid race is to bring about their worlds-spanning empire as it existed/will exist in the far future. However, while each of the Elder Brains works towards this goal, their individual attitudes and methods for achieving this can vary quite widely. The problem is that none of the illithids remember HOW they achieved their empire in the first place; the epic psionic ritual that hurled the illithids back in time to the present required the sacrifice of nearly all of the ancient Elder Brains that remembered the past. As a result, each illithid colony usually studies a particular aspect related to this goal; one Elder Brain might be more scholarly, sending illithid agents to excavate ancient ruins of old civilisations so it can study the rise of humanoid empires and what mistakes led to their downfall. Another Elder Brain might instead choose to focus on ensuring that any single humanoid kingdom doesn't grow powerful enough to become a significant threat to their own plans, planting sleeper agents among noble houses and directing them to sabotage and work against each other so none of them are powerful enough to claim the throne. Still another Elder Brain might dedicate its colony to magical and psionic research on more mundane things like devices to allow illithids to dominate more thralls than usual, thereby increasing their efficiency in herding slave races etc.

    We don't know, however, if all of these individual goals is something the Elder Brains decide to do by consensus, or whether they all just go their own way, confident in the knowledge that their empire WILL arise someday. It is inevitable.

    With regards to the illithid group in SOA that's led by the Hidden, however, I very much doubt that that group was one that was associated with an illithid colony. Alhoons are universally reviled by "normal" illithids (because by becoming undead, the alhoons have given up all hope of ever joining the Elder Brain upon their death), so it stands to reason that that particular group is a splinter group working towards their own nefarious purposes.

    StummvonBordwehrZaghoulThacoBell
  • monicomonico Member Posts: 564
    Zaxares wrote: »
    The problem is that none of the illithids remember HOW they achieved their empire in the first place; the epic psionic ritual that hurled the illithids back in time to the present required the sacrifice of nearly all of the ancient Elder Brains that remembered the past.

    Yeah, that's called "plot armor" :smiley: how could there be PnP campaigns if the ultimate world dominators from the future came to the past with the exact knowledge on how to rule over the universe ?

    Zaxares wrote: »
    With regards to the illithid group in SOA that's led by the Hidden, however, I very much doubt that that group was one that was associated with an illithid colony. Alhoons are universally reviled by "normal" illithids (because by becoming undead, the alhoons have given up all hope of ever joining the Elder Brain upon their death), so it stands to reason that that particular group is a splinter group working towards their own nefarious purposes.

    I fully agree. I think that Hidden and his group are independant with other illithid groups, since they are led by an Alhoon.

    Zaghoul
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,279
    I agree with @sarevok57 regarding loose ends , tbh I love those in the series because it makes the world more alive , instead of a bunch of quests that only the protagonist can solve.

    sarevok57monico
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