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New Renderer

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  • TarotRedhandTarotRedhand Member Posts: 1,481
    As I see it, as this is now abandoned @JuliusBorisov it shouldn't hurt to tell us exactly what it was hoped the new renderer would actually achieve. Who knows, some technical people in the community might be able to figure out some clever ways to actually fake some parts of it.

    TR
  • 1varangian1varangian Member Posts: 367
    Yeah it would be great to get the assets that look like the enhanced Hall of Justice and the enhanced weapon models. They look great even on the original renderer.

    Any word on this then? Do they exist?
  • BluddyBluddy Member Posts: 20
    "We don’t have a full feature list we can share with players yet, but the new renderer for Neverwinter Nights: Enhanced Edition is very robust, and gives us, potentially, access to all the bells and whistles one looks for in a modern game. Luke thinks players and modders will be pleasantly surprised by its capabilities."

    March 19, 2019
  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 909
    The question is if that was just planned capabilities or how far along the progress actually was.

    As for art assets, I'm sure if they had them they wouldn't be hiding them for no real reason. If it were me and I actually had assets I would release them to mitigate the disappointment, if they existed I'm sure that would cross their mind too. People will believe what they want however.
  • AncarionAncarion Member Posts: 155
    Thanks for the update. It offers just a slight little bit of encouragement. I'm surprised there hasn't been any comment from Trent about all this. It is a pretty big deal, after all. I hope it's not from fear of being pilloried by the irate villagers...
  • TarotRedhandTarotRedhand Member Posts: 1,481
    Just hope @TrentOster hasn't got covid-19. Hasn't been on twitter for nearly a week now.

    TR
  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 909
    @JuliusBorisov Hi Julius thanks for indulging us. So you say you're working on render-related things like a new dynamic lighting model. So what exactly does it mean that the renderer was cancelled? What would the difference be if it had been completed?

    @TarotRedhand Hopefully everyone is doing well, but staying at home probably takes a toll either way.
  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 1,329
    While this is disappointing news to be sure, I'm glad to hear that work and support on NWN:EE will continue. :) Honestly, I'm not surprised that the renderer had to be dropped. Work on graphical engines is notoriously complex, and trying to update one that's nearly two decades old has to bring along a whole slew of problems.
  • Prince_RaymondPrince_Raymond Member Posts: 438
    Ancarion wrote: »
    Thanks for the update. It offers just a slight little bit of encouragement. I'm surprised there hasn't been any comment from Trent about all this. It is a pretty big deal, after all. I hope it's not from fear of being pilloried by the irate villagers...

    This circumstance makes me think of a movie released in the early 90's titled, The Last Boy Scout. I'm envisioning Mr. Oster walking to the person who developed the original renderer to ask him one simple question: "Head or gut?"

    Still, it is good to know that NWN:EE will continue to be maintained. Thank you for reading, and happy (healthy) gaming to all.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited May 2020
    Personally, I find it hard to be disappointed about not getting something I never had. Over the years, myself and lots of other CC makers have found ways to push NWN beyond the limits of what people told us we could achieve, both graphically and programmatically.

    Over the years, I (as no doubt many others) have been told, "You can't do that, the engine can't handle it - blah, blah, blah." Never once did that stop me from doing what I set out to do - maybe not implemented in the way I had initially envisioned, but implemented in a workable fashion.

    So really, what have we lost here with the "new renderer"? Time, that's what. Many projects were frozen in limbo because people were waiting to see how this new renderer would affect the game. Maybe now that this new renderer nonsense is behind us, modelers will fire up these "on-hold" projects and start modeling again.

    As for those thinking that the delivery of a new renderer is all that mattered, and little has changed in the rest of the game - well, you don't know jack. I (and others) can do things with this game now that make v1.69 a pale comparison. Look at the HD normal/spec mapping @dafena has done, the mid-poly and hi-poly ports from other games, among others too numerous to mention. Sure, some of this content "might" run on v1.69 BUT it won't run as good.

    OK, I'm done rambling...
  • Old_GithOld_Gith Member Posts: 152
    edited May 2020
    And here I thought we were approaching the final stages of its completion, that we were on the cusp of the zenith of Neverwinter Reborn! Instead, it's a monumental letdown.

    "...And all our yesterdays have lighted fools the way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!"
  • NeverwinterWightsNeverwinterWights Member Posts: 339
    Forgive me if I'm a bit skeptical.

    Beamdog: Hey guys we're working on a new renderer. Stay tuned...

    (insert spongebob 1 1/2 years later intermission)

    Beamdog: Sorry guys we're not doing the renderer now but we are working on something else. Stay tuned...
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,666
    now beam dog should focus on fixing what they broke in the last few patches.
  • SilverizerSilverizer Member Posts: 8
    Maybe this is why the new Renderer was cancelled:
    https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/gaming-tax-credit-alberta-1.5336579
  • AncarionAncarion Member Posts: 155
    Pstemarie wrote: »
    Personally, I find it hard to be disappointed about not getting something I never had.

    I'm... not sure what you wrote is exactly what you were trying to say... Not getting something you never had is a pretty good reason for disappointment. I definitely get your sentiment, but I wouldn't downplay others' reactions. I rather think it just shows continued interest in this ancient game.

    That said, there certainly were things that would only have been possible with an updated renderer, and I don't think the project was "nonsense." It's all moot now, of course, and I'm still happy for the visual improvements we've gotten so far, and hopefully will continue to get.

  • RifkinRifkin Member Posts: 143
    Let's be honest, Beamdog (Trent and co) are probably the most upset about this, promising something and not being able to deliver to the customer is one of the most demoralizing situations you can find yourself in. I also work in Software Development, and when a project flops, you have to take a hard look back. A post-mortem at least helps identify what went wrong and how you can avoid that in the future, but nothing really diminishes that initial feeling of disappointment with yourself and the inability to deliver.

    On a positive note, the fact that everyone is taking part in this discussion shows that there is still a lot of interest in improving the game and I hope the majority of people don't treat this as an excuse to bash on a company that puts a lot of heart and soul into re-mastering/enhancing these experiences so dear to the community.

    TL;DR: Keep your chin up Beamdog, you'll rebound for this misstep
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,666
    and all this is gonna do is make people who already don't like beamdog call them liars and nwn ee a cash grab.
  • Ancarion wrote: »
    Pstemarie wrote: »
    Personally, I find it hard to be disappointed about not getting something I never had.

    I'm... not sure what you wrote is exactly what you were trying to say... Not getting something you never had is a pretty good reason for disappointment. I definitely get your sentiment, but I wouldn't downplay others' reactions. I rather think it just shows continued interest in this ancient game.

    That said, there certainly were things that would only have been possible with an updated renderer, and I don't think the project was "nonsense." It's all moot now, of course, and I'm still happy for the visual improvements we've gotten so far, and hopefully will continue to get.

    Yeah, I'm not wordsmith like Andarian. Probably would have been better off with "I'm not going to cry over spilled milk."

    Anyway, the "nonsense" I was referring to wasn't the attempted development of a new renderer as opposed to all "OMG - BD seriously!! No renderer??? WT@%!!" nonsense that seemed to be popping up in this thread and elsewhere (Discord, etc.).
  • R_TEAMR_TEAM Member Posts: 35
    Sorry to say this - but this is more than understandable ....
    i would be not surprised if 50% of the user have buyed NWN:EE for the new renderer....
    I own 2 copys of NWN (non EE) with both expansions and it was with quirks and little "hacking" good running and flawless - with many nice community expansions like 1.7x patch and NWNCX ...
    Now i have an version (NWN:EE) that should run better (out of the box) on modern systems with bugfixes from ancient bugs and oversees - and an now canceled new renderer ..
    But it runs NOT better .... the bugfixes/addition that was already maked DONT are visible for me ...
    I "see" an better gfx (not an new renderer , but better as before ..) and an game that have still many - and additional new bugs ...
    Good modules i have flawless played before dont work more (have send 3+ bug reports, the first at end of last year ..) and it is not the "end of NWN" if the new renderer is not coming ... but it feels like the "start of the end" .... as its dont make beamdog look nice and competent in this new light ...
    This all slammed together > slow development-canceled core features-still bugs ..dont look good ..

    i wish i go wrong .....
  • Prince_RaymondPrince_Raymond Member Posts: 438
    Silverizer wrote: »

    I don't see how that could be the reason. @JuliusBorisov already stated in the announcement that the current renderer just proved too much for them to perform a rewrite. I'm guessing that the technology used to develop it is so dated, it could not be modernized beyond the scope of its capabilities. It would be like trying to trick out a Model T by replacing the stock engine with one from a Shelby Mustang Cobra. It simply won't work due to the technological gap. Besides, that report was published back in October of last year. Beamdog announced the cancellation of the new renderer near the end of May this year. If the axing of the tax credit actually was the reason the renderer was cancelled, why would Beamdog wait almost nine months afterwards to make the announcement? It doesn't make sense. Thank you for reading, and happy (healthy) gaming to all.
  • Sylvus_MoonbowSylvus_Moonbow Member Posts: 1,085
    edited June 2020
    Funny.

    I'd love to read everyone's complaint as to what the "new renderer" is to them.

    3/4 probably have no clue as to what a "new renderer" was going to be.
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,666
    at worst it would have broken even more mods.
  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 909
    I'm pretty sure almost everyone understands what rendering is and the difference with rendering and other things like art assets. Only Beamdog knows the exact details and features that were planned for it, but rendering graphics isn't some kind of unknown black magic in 2020.
  • SilverizerSilverizer Member Posts: 8
    edited June 2020
    Silverizer wrote: »

    I don't see how that could be the reason. @JuliusBorisov already stated in the announcement that the current renderer just proved too much for them to perform a rewrite. I'm guessing that the technology used to develop it is so dated, it could not be modernized beyond the scope of its capabilities. It would be like trying to trick out a Model T by replacing the stock engine with one from a Shelby Mustang Cobra. It simply won't work due to the technological gap. Besides, that report was published back in October of last year. Beamdog announced the cancellation of the new renderer near the end of May this year. If the axing of the tax credit actually was the reason the renderer was cancelled, why would Beamdog wait almost nine months afterwards to make the announcement? It doesn't make sense. Thank you for reading, and happy (healthy) gaming to all.

    The article stated that the Tax Credit accounted for 25% of Beamdog staff payroll. This was a huge hit to Beamdogs financials.

    In Canada, taxes are not filed in October, when the article came out. It would only be felt in the new year. Taxes are actually filed in Canada around this time.

    Maybe at this point, the community can help Beamdog find more ways to generate revenue from Neverwinter Nights:
    - Purchase DLC
    - Encourage development of new DLC
    - Recruit a friend

    I personally have recruited friends in my age group to pickup NWN EE. For younger people ect, the upgraded graphics would have helped..
  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 909
    I wonder where they could find more customers interested in NWN ...
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    Well... they tried getting customers interested in NwN:EE with Dark Dreams of Furiae. Albeit that one turned out to be the most ill received premium module in NwN history - with 20 negative reviews and 3 positive ones.

    I don't mind paying for quality content related to my interest. Namely the Planescape, Spelljammer, Dark Sun, Eberron and Ravenloft campaingn settings. Myself, I have no usage for premium modules that clearly lack on the “premium“ side of things. Effectively that kind of quality control will make potential customers loose interest more than anything.
  • R_TEAMR_TEAM Member Posts: 35
    The problem "new customers" consists in the overall behavor with the community ...

    old customers where love NWN for years was sceptical over the "new publisher", it was say existed (and good over years developed) non-official extensions would be revisited and incorporated ...
    dont feel so .... and apparently nobody care over bug reports ... the from me mentioned bug report, i have found the culprit now - it is the activating of 'graphics.experimental > preload-area-objects' (if other have similar problems) - wich is a bummer, as i have hoped with this "active", the short lag that inform you (and destroy the surprise) that anything have just spawned near the player was gone ... an old NWN behavor
    (video from the crash is ~3 month old, have send it with the third and last bug report to the devs - no one have looked up to now ... > https://youtu.be/iYITmeMD93c )

    and new customers have now crushed too - the so called "new renderer" was maybe not was many folks have dreamed off ... but the now canceling dont show an good light over beamdog development skills ...
    entitled or not ....
  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 909
    The issues with new content of any kind is that you have to make a fairly large investment for an unknown return revenue. On the other hand they have a quantifiable untapped large group of customers that only need a few changes already accomplished with old community tools. Something Trent said would be easier since they have source code access and don't need to inject functions.

    Alas they try every other idea first before ever doing the obvious things for guaranteed customers. They prefer new and fickle customers not old and loyal customers, but it doesn't seem to be working out so well. They never really explained why they don't want that money.
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