As I see it, as this is now abandoned @JuliusBorisov it shouldn't hurt to tell us exactly what it was hoped the new renderer would actually achieve. Who knows, some technical people in the community might be able to figure out some clever ways to actually fake some parts of it.
Yeah it would be great to get the assets that look like the enhanced Hall of Justice and the enhanced weapon models. They look great even on the original renderer.
"We don’t have a full feature list we can share with players yet, but the new renderer for Neverwinter Nights: Enhanced Edition is very robust, and gives us, potentially, access to all the bells and whistles one looks for in a modern game. Luke thinks players and modders will be pleasantly surprised by its capabilities."
The question is if that was just planned capabilities or how far along the progress actually was.
As for art assets, I'm sure if they had them they wouldn't be hiding them for no real reason. If it were me and I actually had assets I would release them to mitigate the disappointment, if they existed I'm sure that would cross their mind too. People will believe what they want however.
Thanks for all your feedback, questions and concerns.
We're working on visual, performance and stability improvements, as well as bug fixes, of course. One example of an upcoming visual improvement is a new dynamic lighting model, which will be coming in a future update. While we won't be continuing work on what has been called the "new" renderer, development work on NWN:EE is ongoing.
Stay tuned— we’ll share more details when the next update arrives.
Thanks for the update. It offers just a slight little bit of encouragement. I'm surprised there hasn't been any comment from Trent about all this. It is a pretty big deal, after all. I hope it's not from fear of being pilloried by the irate villagers...
@JuliusBorisov Hi Julius thanks for indulging us. So you say you're working on render-related things like a new dynamic lighting model. So what exactly does it mean that the renderer was cancelled? What would the difference be if it had been completed?
@TarotRedhand Hopefully everyone is doing well, but staying at home probably takes a toll either way.
While this is disappointing news to be sure, I'm glad to hear that work and support on NWN:EE will continue. Honestly, I'm not surprised that the renderer had to be dropped. Work on graphical engines is notoriously complex, and trying to update one that's nearly two decades old has to bring along a whole slew of problems.
Thanks for the update. It offers just a slight little bit of encouragement. I'm surprised there hasn't been any comment from Trent about all this. It is a pretty big deal, after all. I hope it's not from fear of being pilloried by the irate villagers...
This circumstance makes me think of a movie released in the early 90's titled, The Last Boy Scout. I'm envisioning Mr. Oster walking to the person who developed the original renderer to ask him one simple question: "Head or gut?"
Still, it is good to know that NWN:EE will continue to be maintained. Thank you for reading, and happy (healthy) gaming to all.
Personally, I find it hard to be disappointed about not getting something I never had. Over the years, myself and lots of other CC makers have found ways to push NWN beyond the limits of what people told us we could achieve, both graphically and programmatically.
Over the years, I (as no doubt many others) have been told, "You can't do that, the engine can't handle it - blah, blah, blah." Never once did that stop me from doing what I set out to do - maybe not implemented in the way I had initially envisioned, but implemented in a workable fashion.
So really, what have we lost here with the "new renderer"? Time, that's what. Many projects were frozen in limbo because people were waiting to see how this new renderer would affect the game. Maybe now that this new renderer nonsense is behind us, modelers will fire up these "on-hold" projects and start modeling again.
As for those thinking that the delivery of a new renderer is all that mattered, and little has changed in the rest of the game - well, you don't know jack. I (and others) can do things with this game now that make v1.69 a pale comparison. Look at the HD normal/spec mapping @dafena has done, the mid-poly and hi-poly ports from other games, among others too numerous to mention. Sure, some of this content "might" run on v1.69 BUT it won't run as good.
And here I thought we were approaching the final stages of its completion, that we were on the cusp of the zenith of Neverwinter Reborn! Instead, it's a monumental letdown.
"...And all our yesterdays have lighted fools the way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!"
Personally, I find it hard to be disappointed about not getting something I never had.
I'm... not sure what you wrote is exactly what you were trying to say... Not getting something you never had is a pretty good reason for disappointment. I definitely get your sentiment, but I wouldn't downplay others' reactions. I rather think it just shows continued interest in this ancient game.
That said, there certainly were things that would only have been possible with an updated renderer, and I don't think the project was "nonsense." It's all moot now, of course, and I'm still happy for the visual improvements we've gotten so far, and hopefully will continue to get.
Let's be honest, Beamdog (Trent and co) are probably the most upset about this, promising something and not being able to deliver to the customer is one of the most demoralizing situations you can find yourself in. I also work in Software Development, and when a project flops, you have to take a hard look back. A post-mortem at least helps identify what went wrong and how you can avoid that in the future, but nothing really diminishes that initial feeling of disappointment with yourself and the inability to deliver.
On a positive note, the fact that everyone is taking part in this discussion shows that there is still a lot of interest in improving the game and I hope the majority of people don't treat this as an excuse to bash on a company that puts a lot of heart and soul into re-mastering/enhancing these experiences so dear to the community.
TL;DR: Keep your chin up Beamdog, you'll rebound for this misstep
Personally, I find it hard to be disappointed about not getting something I never had.
I'm... not sure what you wrote is exactly what you were trying to say... Not getting something you never had is a pretty good reason for disappointment. I definitely get your sentiment, but I wouldn't downplay others' reactions. I rather think it just shows continued interest in this ancient game.
That said, there certainly were things that would only have been possible with an updated renderer, and I don't think the project was "nonsense." It's all moot now, of course, and I'm still happy for the visual improvements we've gotten so far, and hopefully will continue to get.
Yeah, I'm not wordsmith like Andarian. Probably would have been better off with "I'm not going to cry over spilled milk."
Anyway, the "nonsense" I was referring to wasn't the attempted development of a new renderer as opposed to all "OMG - BD seriously!! No renderer??? WT@%!!" nonsense that seemed to be popping up in this thread and elsewhere (Discord, etc.).
Sorry to say this - but this is more than understandable ....
i would be not surprised if 50% of the user have buyed NWN:EE for the new renderer....
I own 2 copys of NWN (non EE) with both expansions and it was with quirks and little "hacking" good running and flawless - with many nice community expansions like 1.7x patch and NWNCX ...
Now i have an version (NWN:EE) that should run better (out of the box) on modern systems with bugfixes from ancient bugs and oversees - and an now canceled new renderer ..
But it runs NOT better .... the bugfixes/addition that was already maked DONT are visible for me ...
I "see" an better gfx (not an new renderer , but better as before ..) and an game that have still many - and additional new bugs ...
Good modules i have flawless played before dont work more (have send 3+ bug reports, the first at end of last year ..) and it is not the "end of NWN" if the new renderer is not coming ... but it feels like the "start of the end" .... as its dont make beamdog look nice and competent in this new light ...
This all slammed together > slow development-canceled core features-still bugs ..dont look good ..
I would not guess anywhere close to 50% of customers even knew about the new renderer let alone purchased NWNEE solely for that purpose. Almost all of the comments you read are from people already so invested that they took the time to comment about it and discuss various things about NWN. Clearly there are many many many more customers that don't ever comment.
That said those customers that do comment usually know the game better than those that do not and are probably a good indicator of where you could set priorities for development. A new renderer could have potentially had a significant impact such that it didn't really matter what differences still existed between NWNEE and NWN with NWNCX. With a big change people might have decided that the pluses pros outweigh the cons and decided that NWNEE was simply better than old NWN and didn't need a nuanced comparison.
Cancelling the renderer isn't just about the renderer. Now you have lost a big feature that would have received a lot of interest but you also haven't made much progress on implementing the features that keep people using old NWN with NWNCX and various other tools. If you didn't have the renderer but you had those features instead, then things would be pretty positive, but the point is we don't have either in NWNEE.
I continue to stand by my assertion that the priority should have been and should still be implementing all the features made possible with NWNCX and making a serious attempt to unify the community. That said who knows what they can manage this late after release or if they'll go on another wild goose chase instead.
I don't see how that could be the reason. @JuliusBorisov already stated in the announcement that the current renderer just proved too much for them to perform a rewrite. I'm guessing that the technology used to develop it is so dated, it could not be modernized beyond the scope of its capabilities. It would be like trying to trick out a Model T by replacing the stock engine with one from a Shelby Mustang Cobra. It simply won't work due to the technological gap. Besides, that report was published back in October of last year. Beamdog announced the cancellation of the new renderer near the end of May this year. If the axing of the tax credit actually was the reason the renderer was cancelled, why would Beamdog wait almost nine months afterwards to make the announcement? It doesn't make sense. Thank you for reading, and happy (healthy) gaming to all.
I'm pretty sure almost everyone understands what rendering is and the difference with rendering and other things like art assets. Only Beamdog knows the exact details and features that were planned for it, but rendering graphics isn't some kind of unknown black magic in 2020.
I don't see how that could be the reason. @JuliusBorisov already stated in the announcement that the current renderer just proved too much for them to perform a rewrite. I'm guessing that the technology used to develop it is so dated, it could not be modernized beyond the scope of its capabilities. It would be like trying to trick out a Model T by replacing the stock engine with one from a Shelby Mustang Cobra. It simply won't work due to the technological gap. Besides, that report was published back in October of last year. Beamdog announced the cancellation of the new renderer near the end of May this year. If the axing of the tax credit actually was the reason the renderer was cancelled, why would Beamdog wait almost nine months afterwards to make the announcement? It doesn't make sense. Thank you for reading, and happy (healthy) gaming to all.
The article stated that the Tax Credit accounted for 25% of Beamdog staff payroll. This was a huge hit to Beamdogs financials.
In Canada, taxes are not filed in October, when the article came out. It would only be felt in the new year. Taxes are actually filed in Canada around this time.
Maybe at this point, the community can help Beamdog find more ways to generate revenue from Neverwinter Nights:
- Purchase DLC
- Encourage development of new DLC
- Recruit a friend
I personally have recruited friends in my age group to pickup NWN EE. For younger people ect, the upgraded graphics would have helped..
Well... they tried getting customers interested in NwN:EE with Dark Dreams of Furiae. Albeit that one turned out to be the most ill received premium module in NwN history - with 20 negative reviews and 3 positive ones.
I don't mind paying for quality content related to my interest. Namely the Planescape, Spelljammer, Dark Sun, Eberron and Ravenloft campaingn settings. Myself, I have no usage for premium modules that clearly lack on the “premium“ side of things. Effectively that kind of quality control will make potential customers loose interest more than anything.
The problem "new customers" consists in the overall behavor with the community ...
old customers where love NWN for years was sceptical over the "new publisher", it was say existed (and good over years developed) non-official extensions would be revisited and incorporated ...
dont feel so .... and apparently nobody care over bug reports ... the from me mentioned bug report, i have found the culprit now - it is the activating of 'graphics.experimental > preload-area-objects' (if other have similar problems) - wich is a bummer, as i have hoped with this "active", the short lag that inform you (and destroy the surprise) that anything have just spawned near the player was gone ... an old NWN behavor
(video from the crash is ~3 month old, have send it with the third and last bug report to the devs - no one have looked up to now ... > https://youtu.be/iYITmeMD93c )
and new customers have now crushed too - the so called "new renderer" was maybe not was many folks have dreamed off ... but the now canceling dont show an good light over beamdog development skills ...
entitled or not ....
The issues with new content of any kind is that you have to make a fairly large investment for an unknown return revenue. On the other hand they have a quantifiable untapped large group of customers that only need a few changes already accomplished with old community tools. Something Trent said would be easier since they have source code access and don't need to inject functions.
Alas they try every other idea first before ever doing the obvious things for guaranteed customers. They prefer new and fickle customers not old and loyal customers, but it doesn't seem to be working out so well. They never really explained why they don't want that money.
Comments
TR
Any word on this then? Do they exist?
March 19, 2019
As for art assets, I'm sure if they had them they wouldn't be hiding them for no real reason. If it were me and I actually had assets I would release them to mitigate the disappointment, if they existed I'm sure that would cross their mind too. People will believe what they want however.
We're working on visual, performance and stability improvements, as well as bug fixes, of course. One example of an upcoming visual improvement is a new dynamic lighting model, which will be coming in a future update. While we won't be continuing work on what has been called the "new" renderer, development work on NWN:EE is ongoing.
Stay tuned— we’ll share more details when the next update arrives.
TR
@TarotRedhand Hopefully everyone is doing well, but staying at home probably takes a toll either way.
This circumstance makes me think of a movie released in the early 90's titled, The Last Boy Scout. I'm envisioning Mr. Oster walking to the person who developed the original renderer to ask him one simple question: "Head or gut?"
Still, it is good to know that NWN:EE will continue to be maintained. Thank you for reading, and happy (healthy) gaming to all.
Over the years, I (as no doubt many others) have been told, "You can't do that, the engine can't handle it - blah, blah, blah." Never once did that stop me from doing what I set out to do - maybe not implemented in the way I had initially envisioned, but implemented in a workable fashion.
So really, what have we lost here with the "new renderer"? Time, that's what. Many projects were frozen in limbo because people were waiting to see how this new renderer would affect the game. Maybe now that this new renderer nonsense is behind us, modelers will fire up these "on-hold" projects and start modeling again.
As for those thinking that the delivery of a new renderer is all that mattered, and little has changed in the rest of the game - well, you don't know jack. I (and others) can do things with this game now that make v1.69 a pale comparison. Look at the HD normal/spec mapping @dafena has done, the mid-poly and hi-poly ports from other games, among others too numerous to mention. Sure, some of this content "might" run on v1.69 BUT it won't run as good.
OK, I'm done rambling...
"...And all our yesterdays have lighted fools the way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!"
Beamdog: Hey guys we're working on a new renderer. Stay tuned...
(insert spongebob 1 1/2 years later intermission)
Beamdog: Sorry guys we're not doing the renderer now but we are working on something else. Stay tuned...
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/gaming-tax-credit-alberta-1.5336579
I'm... not sure what you wrote is exactly what you were trying to say... Not getting something you never had is a pretty good reason for disappointment. I definitely get your sentiment, but I wouldn't downplay others' reactions. I rather think it just shows continued interest in this ancient game.
That said, there certainly were things that would only have been possible with an updated renderer, and I don't think the project was "nonsense." It's all moot now, of course, and I'm still happy for the visual improvements we've gotten so far, and hopefully will continue to get.
On a positive note, the fact that everyone is taking part in this discussion shows that there is still a lot of interest in improving the game and I hope the majority of people don't treat this as an excuse to bash on a company that puts a lot of heart and soul into re-mastering/enhancing these experiences so dear to the community.
TL;DR: Keep your chin up Beamdog, you'll rebound for this misstep
Yeah, I'm not wordsmith like Andarian. Probably would have been better off with "I'm not going to cry over spilled milk."
Anyway, the "nonsense" I was referring to wasn't the attempted development of a new renderer as opposed to all "OMG - BD seriously!! No renderer??? WT@%!!" nonsense that seemed to be popping up in this thread and elsewhere (Discord, etc.).
i would be not surprised if 50% of the user have buyed NWN:EE for the new renderer....
I own 2 copys of NWN (non EE) with both expansions and it was with quirks and little "hacking" good running and flawless - with many nice community expansions like 1.7x patch and NWNCX ...
Now i have an version (NWN:EE) that should run better (out of the box) on modern systems with bugfixes from ancient bugs and oversees - and an now canceled new renderer ..
But it runs NOT better .... the bugfixes/addition that was already maked DONT are visible for me ...
I "see" an better gfx (not an new renderer , but better as before ..) and an game that have still many - and additional new bugs ...
Good modules i have flawless played before dont work more (have send 3+ bug reports, the first at end of last year ..) and it is not the "end of NWN" if the new renderer is not coming ... but it feels like the "start of the end" .... as its dont make beamdog look nice and competent in this new light ...
This all slammed together > slow development-canceled core features-still bugs ..dont look good ..
i wish i go wrong .....
That said those customers that do comment usually know the game better than those that do not and are probably a good indicator of where you could set priorities for development. A new renderer could have potentially had a significant impact such that it didn't really matter what differences still existed between NWNEE and NWN with NWNCX. With a big change people might have decided that the pluses pros outweigh the cons and decided that NWNEE was simply better than old NWN and didn't need a nuanced comparison.
Cancelling the renderer isn't just about the renderer. Now you have lost a big feature that would have received a lot of interest but you also haven't made much progress on implementing the features that keep people using old NWN with NWNCX and various other tools. If you didn't have the renderer but you had those features instead, then things would be pretty positive, but the point is we don't have either in NWNEE.
I continue to stand by my assertion that the priority should have been and should still be implementing all the features made possible with NWNCX and making a serious attempt to unify the community. That said who knows what they can manage this late after release or if they'll go on another wild goose chase instead.
I don't see how that could be the reason. @JuliusBorisov already stated in the announcement that the current renderer just proved too much for them to perform a rewrite. I'm guessing that the technology used to develop it is so dated, it could not be modernized beyond the scope of its capabilities. It would be like trying to trick out a Model T by replacing the stock engine with one from a Shelby Mustang Cobra. It simply won't work due to the technological gap. Besides, that report was published back in October of last year. Beamdog announced the cancellation of the new renderer near the end of May this year. If the axing of the tax credit actually was the reason the renderer was cancelled, why would Beamdog wait almost nine months afterwards to make the announcement? It doesn't make sense. Thank you for reading, and happy (healthy) gaming to all.
I'd love to read everyone's complaint as to what the "new renderer" is to them.
3/4 probably have no clue as to what a "new renderer" was going to be.
The article stated that the Tax Credit accounted for 25% of Beamdog staff payroll. This was a huge hit to Beamdogs financials.
In Canada, taxes are not filed in October, when the article came out. It would only be felt in the new year. Taxes are actually filed in Canada around this time.
Maybe at this point, the community can help Beamdog find more ways to generate revenue from Neverwinter Nights:
- Purchase DLC
- Encourage development of new DLC
- Recruit a friend
I personally have recruited friends in my age group to pickup NWN EE. For younger people ect, the upgraded graphics would have helped..
I don't mind paying for quality content related to my interest. Namely the Planescape, Spelljammer, Dark Sun, Eberron and Ravenloft campaingn settings. Myself, I have no usage for premium modules that clearly lack on the “premium“ side of things. Effectively that kind of quality control will make potential customers loose interest more than anything.
old customers where love NWN for years was sceptical over the "new publisher", it was say existed (and good over years developed) non-official extensions would be revisited and incorporated ...
dont feel so .... and apparently nobody care over bug reports ... the from me mentioned bug report, i have found the culprit now - it is the activating of 'graphics.experimental > preload-area-objects' (if other have similar problems) - wich is a bummer, as i have hoped with this "active", the short lag that inform you (and destroy the surprise) that anything have just spawned near the player was gone ... an old NWN behavor
(video from the crash is ~3 month old, have send it with the third and last bug report to the devs - no one have looked up to now ... >
and new customers have now crushed too - the so called "new renderer" was maybe not was many folks have dreamed off ... but the now canceling dont show an good light over beamdog development skills ...
entitled or not ....
Alas they try every other idea first before ever doing the obvious things for guaranteed customers. They prefer new and fickle customers not old and loyal customers, but it doesn't seem to be working out so well. They never really explained why they don't want that money.