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Any mod that actually makes monk decent?

ArthasArthas Member Posts: 501
I've compiled a list of opinions I very much agree with from the .net. I think they hit right in the spot, monk is bad and should be avoided:

> monk suffers from too little too late, and it is exacerbated by the Monty Hall early game loot of Bg2. By the time you are good in melee, everyone is also good in melee. By the time your fists are pumping out what appears to be good damage, everyone melee-specialized has uber gear that outperforms the monk fist damage. The average base damage on the highest damage fists is 10.5. Purely from a damage perspective it will be outdone by weapons like daystar and FoA +3 without even counting specialization bonuses or potential extra attacks--extremely early game items. By the time your AC is pretty respectable, your AC becomes mostly irrelevant as the ToB enemies will easily hit you with their high APR unless you have a massive AC, making you mostly rely on damage resistance to stay in melee for any extended period of time.

They even have some gameplay annoyances like their movement speed because you usually don't want them in front of the team but they get their speed boost and off they go messing up your formation and putting their skirt-like AC on the front lines for everyone to swing/shoot at.


> 1d10(5.5 avg damage) is a joke compared to easy to get early game weapons like Daystar(11 avg damage), FoA(10.5), and Lilarcor(8.5), celestial fury(8.5 without counting procs). Especially when all these but lila can be paired with belm, also ridiculously easy to get early game weapon. It all gets even worse wehen you consider fighters can start Bg2 with grandmastery already in place which gives an additional attack per round plus something like -3 thaco and +5 damage.

> Add that fighters can get extra attacks with haste or improved haste, which Monks are "immune" to. And that a Fighter can use a "speed weapon" (Belm, Kundane) without penalties if they put the proficiency points. The Ninja-to of the Scarlet Brotherhood is, ironically, more useful to a Fighter/Thief dual or multi-class with UAI because of the proficiency points in the two weapon style.

> No armor means terrible AC from start to finish, you're outclassed by both fighters and mages in this department by quite a bit. No improved haste means 5 attacks per round max, which means you're taking whirlwind to stay competitive and not crit strike like fighters get. No helmet means full damage from crits, so if you play on any difficulty other than core you're going to explode into tiny pieces quickly. No bonus hp from con means d8 hp +2 MAX per level.

So we have a class that is supposed to melee, but has less HP, less AC, less attacks per round, and can't wear a helmet. All they get is MR and some fun abilities that don't offer a penalty to saves, meaning they fail all the time.

> 1d10(5.5 avg damage) is a joke compared to easy to get early game weapons like Daystar(11 avg damage), FoA(10.5), and Lilarcor(8.5), celestial fury(8.5 without counting procs). Especially when all these but lila can be paired with belm, also ridiculously easy to get early game weapon. It all gets even worse wehen you consider fighters can start Bg2 with grandmastery already in place which gives an additional attack per round plus something like -3 thaco and +5 damage.

Post edited by Arthas on

Comments

  • StefanOStefanO Member Posts: 311
    A monk is actually more than decent. I once soloed SoA with a monk and found it easier than my FMT solo run (non-SCS). Look at all his resistancies, specially his magic resistance at higher levels. And his fists do a lot of fast damage.

    ThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,626
    Monastic orders of faerun does some good for BG1 monks.

    semiticgod
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 4,461
    Decent monk mods are indeed well covered. Me, I'm still waiting for a mod that makes monks indecent... :smirk:

    semiticgodDJKajururonaldo
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,395
    Also, monks can use plenty of weapons, including things like Daystar or Blackrazor or the like to further supplement their abilities. Throw in Hide in Shadows and you've got a very respectable amount of lategame versatility.

    semiticgodThacoBell
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 3,995
    In BG1 monks certainly are vulnerable, but they still have some good points. If you make proper use of their ability to stealth and stun opponents they can trivialize quite a few potentially difficult fights.

    By the end of BG2 my experience is that monks are more than a match for fighters. If playing solo, magic is a major issue for many characters, but the 100% MR and decent saving throws of monks mean there's almost no danger to them - particularly with immunity to poison and charm (even from non-magical sources).

    In melee, late-game monks will comfortably out-damage a standard fighter when unbuffed and they perform perfectly decently even in a party regularly using improved haste.

    I'll also take the opportunity to try and counter the myth that AC doesn't matter in ToB - that's simply not true. A monk at the level cap will be difficult for most opponents to hit, even in ToB. While an opponent like Melissan will still hit pretty easily, the fact that her summons and allies won't makes it a lot easier for a solo monk to handle the final battles.

    ThacoBellsemiticgodsarevok57
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,395
    Also, one of the main tactics you have to rely on early in BG1 is kiting. For as vulnerable as low-level monks are, they still have an advantage in that department with their slightly faster movement rate. Every little bit helps sometimes.

    semiticgod
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 10,881
    Also, monks can use Wands of the Heavens, which are pretty strong in BG1 and SoD.

    And yes, AC is important even in ToB. The reality is that while many enemies have THAC0 near zero or slightly below zero, it's extremely rare for enemies to get THAC0 below -10, while it's entirely possible to get AC well below -10 or even -20 for the right character build. Even Ascension Abazigal will miss a few hits on a well-constructed tank. Haer'dalis can easily hit -24 AC.

    The reason it seems like AC doesn't matter is because warriors gain access to Hardiness, and resistances are therefore easier to crank up to game-changing levels than AC, at least for typical tanks.

    StummvonBordwehrThacoBell
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 3,883
    i be power game extraordinaire, and i find nothing wrong with the power that monks have

    when it comes to the overall power of being a melee character, in the end the only thing they really suffer from is lower HP ( it is very difficult to hit that 200+ mark which i like my melee'ers to hit ) but thankfully they still get hardiness which really helps a lot ( especially on insane difficulty )

    their to hit is pretty good ( hitting -12 thac0 at level 25 thanks to those +4 fisties ) which is enough to hit anything with a 2 basically ( hardly do i ever see a monk miss once their thac0 hits double digit negative territory

    their AC becomes insane, usually find myself hitting -20 or lower, which is way better than my OP gnone/dwarf berserker warriors only hitting around -15/-16

    their damage output is almost unmatched, with gauntlets of crushing, 22 str ( 18 in bg1, +1 from tome, +2 from hell trial, +1 from MoLtM ) and with +4 fisties you can hit up to 38 damage on a normal hit, granted that d20 does have a big range, but you will see critical hits score in the 70s of damage, again, even my single weapon OP melee'ers only deal over 50 or so damage on critical hits nowhere close to 70

    another great thing they get is A LOT of immunities and that crazy good magic resistance

    the only REAL drawback of the monk is that they take a little while to get going ( bg1 they are complete trash unless you know how to equip them properly and even then they're meh ) they don't really start to hold their own until level 15, and then by 18 is when they really start kicking some serious butt, problem is, for some this might be too much of a long time to wait for a melee class to get good, but for me, i don't mind it, i actually have fun with how "weak" monks are at early levels, i feel that my monk can finally match the garbage that is my NPC companions for a little while before i really start to outclass them, as apposed to making a god right away making companions moot

    Grond0StummvonBordwehrThacoBell
  • ArthasArthas Member Posts: 501
    Is there a multiquote button?

    @Stefano: being decent is not being good

    @semiticgod
    1) The movement speed is offset by the fact that you can't use haste on them;
    2) [saving throws] True
    3) [lay on hands] Meh
    4) [apr] True
    5) Magic resistance doesn't matter in a game where all is needed to is just to cast "lower magic resistance" and it is as you don't have it.
    6) Useless unless you are playing BG1
    7) mmm
    8) not a point of strength, rather a disadvantage.

    I ask you, why would I go for a monk while I can go for a barbarian? And you wouldn't even need very much to beat a monk in this regards, all you gotta do is just equip a good weapon and an armor that gives you DR and you are set.

    @Grond0 +@Semiticgod -20 AC may matter, but not when you reach it so late. Also, in ToB I would prefere way much a helm instead of -10 AC (otherwise fire giant can just trash you)

    @Abi_Dalzim Your opinion about kiting would matter if it was a class based on ranged weapons

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 3,995
    edited December 6
    Arthas said:


    "5) Magic resistance doesn't matter in a game where all is needed to is just to cast "lower magic resistance" and it is as you don't have it."
    While that's a standard tactic by the player, there are very few occasions where the game uses lower MR on you.

    "I ask you, why would I go for a monk while I can go for a barbarian? And you wouldn't even need very much to beat a monk in this regards, all you gotta do is just equip a good weapon and an armor that gives you DR and you are set."
    While a barbarian is certainly easier to manage for much of the game, it would have no chance in a one-on-one contest with a high level monk. From your response to @Abi_Dalzim it sounds like you're not a fan of kiting though, so perhaps you don't realize just how drastically that can change views about what makes a powerful class. Even without kiting though a monk can still use stealth to kill opponents without risk in the vast majority of situations.

    "@Grond0 +@Semiticgod -20 AC may matter, but not when you reach it so late. Also, in ToB I would prefere way much a helm instead of -10 AC (otherwise fire giant can just trash you)"
    That's a reasonable point if you play with a 6-man party, but if you're doing that then differences between character classes don't really matter anyway as you can fill in any weaknesses with NPCs. If playing solo then you can easily hit the BG2 XP cap before you even leave for the Underdark.
    I agree that the EE has weakened monks by removing critical protection from ioun stones. However, I wouldn't expect to tackle standard fire giants in melee unless they needed a critical to hit a monk anyway. That's more difficult to arrange with the elite fire giants and I would either run them round or stand in some lava to get free healing from high fire resistance while meleeing those.

    ThacoBell
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,395
    Arthas said:


    @Abi_Dalzim Your opinion about kiting would matter if it was a class based on ranged weapons

    Any class that can use ranged weapons can kite. Monks can exploit the nasty effects of enchanted darts, or use high strength to inflict surprising amounts of damage with slings or throwing daggers. If your mage/cleric/druid/thief never had to rely on similar tactics in BG1, then I can only conclude you haven't played it enough.

    ThacoBell
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 2,777
    Also, monks can use giant strength and invulnerability potions , which is great for harder battles.

    ThacoBell
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 4,461
    And monks get to wear the same tunic for over two years without ever having a chance to wash it.
    That's incredible in its own right, right?

    sarevok57ThacoBell
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 3,995
    edited December 6

    Arthas said:


    @Abi_Dalzim Your opinion about kiting would matter if it was a class based on ranged weapons

    Any class that can use ranged weapons can kite. Monks can exploit the nasty effects of enchanted darts, or use high strength to inflict surprising amounts of damage with slings or throwing daggers. If your mage/cleric/druid/thief never had to rely on similar tactics in BG1, then I can only conclude you haven't played it enough.
    No one has yet mentioned the additional defense bonus monks get against missile weapons. At higher levels that makes them great in missile duels in situations where a fighter would need to come into melee (potentially activating more enemies in the process) - though if you don't object to using it the Reflection Shield can negate that problem anyway.

    ThacoBell
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,395
    Grond0 said:


    No one has yet mentioned the additional defense bonus monks get against missile weapons. At higher levels that makes them great in missile duels in situations where a fighter would need to come into melee (potentially activating more enemies in the process) - though if you don't object to using it the Reflection Shield can negate that problem anyway.

    Hm. I'll admit, I don't usually think of missile attacks as a serious threat at high levels. Unless it's a Drow/Kuo-Toa bolt that threatens to stun/paralyze you, they can usually be shrugged off by the time of SOA.

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 3,995
    A monk in TOB can have a base strength of up to 23. Using the Sling of Everard and +4 ammunition that means that, unbuffed, they're doing 19-22 damage per hit - and they will hit virtually anything with a 2. That means they will be doing around 200 damage per round if using GWW - and even if enemies have some damage resistance there are not many of them that can shrug that off :smile:.

    ThacoBell
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 3,215
    If ya want something with a little more flavor to the kit try the Shadow Monk .
    SHADOW MONK: Little is known about the secretive order of shadow monks, other than the fact that they draw upon the power of the Shadow Plane to wield dark ki. They are masterful assassins, manipulating powerful illusions to their advantage and skilled at striking from the shadows, but their ritualistic training has taken a toll on their physical stamina.

    Advantages:
    - +1 bonus to Dexterity.
    - Gains the Darkvision innate ability.

    DARKVISION: The shadow adept is gifted with the ability to see in the dark even better than in light. They permanently gain infravision and immunity to blindness.

    - Gains the Life-Drain innate ability.

    LIFE-DRAIN: Shadow monks channel the power of the Shadow Plane into their fists, gaining bonus effects based off of their level.

    1st - 9th level: Drains 1 hit point on hit.
    10th - 19th level: Drains 2 hit points and lowers target's strength by 1 for 2 rounds (save vs. death to avoid strength drain)
    20th level onwards: Drains 3 hit points, lowers target's strength by 1 and 20% chance to drain one level permanently on hit

    - Has a backstab multiplier of x2. Increases to x3 at 11th level and x4 at 21st level.

    - 3rd level: May use the Shadow Pool ability.

    SHADOW POOL: Shadow monks wield the power of the Shadow Plane and can manipulate it in order to cast a limited amount of Shadow Magic. The shadow monk must first spend one round drawing energy from the Shadow Weave then cast the spell. The shadow monk's concentration may be disrupted during the channeling or the casting time.

    Level 1 (3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th levels): Shadow Missile, Blinding Darkness, Shadow Veil, Decoy
    Level 2 (7th, 10th, 13th, 16th levels): Dark Mirage, Black Mist, Ghostly Visage, Shadow Walk
    Level 3 (11th, 17th, 23rd levels): Shadowblast, Lifedrinker Touch, Shadow Comets, Impose
    Level 4 (15th, 21st, 27th levels): Fireshield (Shadow), Shadeskin, Summon Shadow, Shar's Blessing

    - 5th level: May cast Shadowstep once per day. Gains an additional use every 5 levels thereafter.

    SHADOWSTEP: Step into the Shadow Plane and move for 7 seconds while others are frozen in time. The shadow monk cannot attack or use spells while in the Shadow Plane.

    - 12th level: May cast Shadow Door once per day. Gains additional uses at 16th and 20th level.
    - 15th level: May use the Deathstrike ability once per day.

    DEATHSTRIKE: The shadow monk teleports to a chosen target and turns invisible for one round. Their next attack within one round is a guaranteed critical hit and drains six levels from the target.

    Disadvantages:
    - Hit Die: d6
    - -2 penalty to Strength.
    - -4 penalty to Constitution.
    - Alignment restricted to non-lawful and non-good.
    - Uses the shadowdancer's high level abilities table instead of the fighter's, with the exclusion of Use Any Item.
    - May not use the Lay On Hands ability.
    - May not use the Stunning Blow ability.
    - May not use the Quivering Palm ability.

    semiticgodStummvonBordwehrThacoBell
  • FlashburnFlashburn Member Posts: 1,570
    Monks can still use the Mask of King Strohm III for protection from critical hits. That's about all I can contribute since everything else has been covered.

    StummvonBordwehrsemiticgodGrond0ThacoBell
  • xizorxizor Member Posts: 40
    If you want to use it, they can also wear Big Metal Unit... :D

    sarevok57ThacoBell
  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 471
    Flashburn said:

    Monks can still use the Mask of King Strohm III for protection from critical hits. That's about all I can contribute since everything else has been covered.

    Is it works against criticals ? Because a lots of things in ee has changed, like ioun stones.

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 3,883
    Danacm said:

    Flashburn said:

    Monks can still use the Mask of King Strohm III for protection from critical hits. That's about all I can contribute since everything else has been covered.

    Is it works against criticals ? Because a lots of things in ee has changed, like ioun stones.
    i have just tested it out and the mask of king strohm III indeed no longer protects against critical hits

    DanacmStummvonBordwehrsemiticgodThacoBell
  • Jaheiras_WitnessJaheiras_Witness Member Posts: 451
    Does’t do anything for low level monks but there is a mod (Oversight I think?) which gives monks unique HLAs to replace the fighter HLAs. So you lose GWW, Hardiness et al but you get some super-cool monk HLAs like Lunar Stance which are also very good (they are based on Balthazar abilities).

    Highly recommend it if you want to play a high level monk.

  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 471
    sarevok57 said:

    Danacm said:

    Flashburn said:

    Monks can still use the Mask of King Strohm III for protection from critical hits. That's about all I can contribute since everything else has been covered.

    Is it works against criticals ? Because a lots of things in ee has changed, like ioun stones.
    i have just tested it out and the mask of king strohm III indeed no longer protects against critical hits
    I always feel more fun to nothing prevent critical hit protection. The helmets just add 1 ac bonus or whatever.

  • FlashburnFlashburn Member Posts: 1,570
    sarevok57 said:

    Danacm said:

    Flashburn said:

    Monks can still use the Mask of King Strohm III for protection from critical hits. That's about all I can contribute since everything else has been covered.

    Is it works against criticals ? Because a lots of things in ee has changed, like ioun stones.
    i have just tested it out and the mask of king strohm III indeed no longer protects against critical hits
    That is pretty disappointing. It protects against criticals in v2.3, which is what I'm still using. I will add this to the beef I already have with v2.5's shoddiness.

  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,395
    Flashburn said:


    That is pretty disappointing. It protects against criticals in v2.3, which is what I'm still using. I will add this to the beef I already have with v2.5's shoddiness.

    I'm just sick of all the patches, my lack of input in getting them, and how I never hear about what's changed unless I come here. I suppose I'll have to go see if there's a new Isra version that's compatible with the new patches, because at least in BG1 she's inoperable now. And also yeah, the intermittent changes in game mechanics aren't appreciated. They can't be bothered to fix the flagrant inconsistencies in whether or not characters lose their spells when damaged, but they've got all the time in the world to nerf Ioun stones or whatever they're monkeying around with now. Who asked for that?

    Flashburn
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,626
    How exactly would Ioun stones protect from critical hits? My understanding is that in PnP, they don't.

  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 471
    Every helmet in adnd 2 pnp protect from critical ? I think there is no such rule. Are there any mod that remove prot from critical from all helmets ?

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,760
    Danacm said:

    Every helmet in adnd 2 pnp protect from critical ? I think there is no such rule. Are there any mod that remove prot from critical from all helmets ?

    Item Revisions has an option for it. It's kind of hardcore - getting critted by ogres in BG1 when you only have 20-30 hp is pretty brutal.

    But then some items actually do give crit protection, and those become valuable and cool. Overall I like the mod.

    semiticgodStummvonBordwehr
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