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Do you use "Antimagic attacks penetrate improved invisibility" SCS component?

MyragMyrag Member Posts: 328
edited January 2019 in General Discussion (Spoiler Warning!)
As far as I play SCS all the time this is the only component I'm torn about.

Even though I have it installed always, it seems quite unreliable. As far as I understand it was implemented via insivible critter and as such it tends to
  1. Land on incorrect enemy if they are moving
  2. Completly fail to locate target and not hit anything (this seems to be related to target position, especially when hugging walls/corners, etc.
  3. Land in incorrect order of casts, when you cast multiple ruby rays/spell thrusts they seem to randomly fail mostly because one landed after another not in order they were cast.
  4. Breach is still targeted where as anti magic attacks first fly to spot where they were cast and then to the target. Because of activation time after they get to initial place they often land after breach even if they were cast before. This is really annoying under improved alacrity where you cast them split second apart.
Overall the component works like 95% of time so it's fine, but then you suddely fight amelyssan on LOB/SCS/Ascension and casting 7x ruby rays suddenly does nothing. Note that I'm fairly experienced with SCS so it's not a mage chess that I don't get, it's just random cases of occurence.

This makes me wonder if the component is worth it or not. I always reveal enemies from invisibility anyway but this affects enemies too.

This is not the rant. I still think author did fantastic work, it's just I'm trying to decide whether I should use it or not. Note I will still decide on my own, I'm just curious about community experience with it.

What are your thoughts?

Comments

  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    I've always used the component, since it's the only way to deal with buffs protected by Improved Invisibility, but the unreliability can get really frustrating. I don't really see the need anymore, since (in EE at least) there's a flag you can add to a spell that allows it to target invisible creatures--meaning there's no need to resort to scripts or summoned critters to cast the spell.

    Plus, the scripts that cast the SCS spell don't seem to target as well as they could: it seems entirely possible to tweak the spell so it could ignore non-spellcaster targets if spellcaster targets were slightly further away. That is, if a mage moves during casting time and suddenly the mage's golem is closer to the SCS summoned critter, the SCS summoned critter could be scripted to ignore the golem and target the mage instead.
  • DavidWDavidW Member Posts: 823
    I'm quite puzzled by this thread. It's years since I used the invisible-creature trick in SCS for antimagic spells. Ever since (I think) version 22, released back in 2013, I've used EE/ToBEx functionality to let spells bypass invisibility directly. The invisible-creature trick hung around on non-EE installs for people not using ToBeX, but it's gone entirely in v32. SR carried on doing it for a while longer, but SCS reverted it.

    So: if you've been seeing antimagic spells that get cast at a point rather than a creature, and sometimes miss, on any remotely recent version of SCS, I'd really appreciate the details. If you're on v31 or earlier, it's possible some weird logic glitch means the installer thinks you need the non-ToBEx legacy version. If you're on a v32 release candidate, I'm at a loss...
  • MyragMyrag Member Posts: 328
    edited January 2019
    @DavidW wow, the man himself! Glad to see you back.

    I used version v30 and all earlier did the same. Although I did install via BWS, maybe that had something to do with it. Just Today I noticed there is already v32 (didn't check in a while) so I immediately installed it and I can confirm that EE-Mod-Setup with SCS v32 does not have this logic in place. Loving it!

    Useless side note. Thank you for everything! SCS is probably one of major reasons I still play BG every year.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @DavidW: All of my installs these days have been done via BWS, since I've been told that it was the safest way to install SCS. I think @subtledoctor first recommended it. I've always done it this way because, a while ago, I went several months in which SCS simply could not install under any circumstances on my computer without using BWS. God only knows how many times I tried to install it, back in those days, only to have it fail for reasons that even experienced modders couldn't figure out when I talked to them about it. I almost gave up on playing BG2 entirely because SCS just wouldn't install properly on my computer. It was only when I started using BWS that I could get SCS to install properly. I still have no idea why.

    If you've since replaced the "invisible summoned critter" method with a new one, I'm guessing that BWS is downloading an old version of SCS and installing it on people's computers, like mine, instead of the more recent updates. BWS downloads and installs SCS for me; I haven't downloaded the mod personally for maybe 2 years.

    @ALIEN: I believe you know a lot about BWS and how it works. Is it possible that the installer is downloading SCS from an outdated link?

    The weird thing is, my current install is exhibiting the old behavior (anti-magic attacks operate using invisible critters), but when I look at the TP2 in my "stratagems" folder, it says it's version 31.
  • MyragMyrag Member Posts: 328
    edited January 2019
    hey @semiticgod, you should try EE Mod Install. I think BWS is no longer supported (or with limited support). EE Mod Install works perfectly for me. It seems to be BWS just branched out by different developer so it works pretty much the same way.

    ps. my experience with BWS and SCS was exactly the same. I couldn't count how many times manual installation of v29 failed for me before I started using BWS.

    ps2. This thread might become happy accident for me and some people :smile:.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    Mm... A newer update would be nice, but I'm kind of leery of patronizing Roxanne's site. I might prefer to do things manually, if SCS v32 could be installed without the use of a special installer.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited January 2019
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  • ALIENALIEN Member Posts: 1,271
    @semiticgod No, BWS use always up to date link. Just post you weidu.log to see which version you installed.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @ALIEN: Looks like it is in fact v31. All the SCS components mention v31. Not really sure why I seem to be getting the old pre-v31 behavior.

    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #1000 // Initialise mod (all other components require this): v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #1910 // Protection from Normal Missiles also blocks Arrows of Fire/Cold/Acid and similar projectiles without pluses: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #2000 // Allow Spellstrike to take down a Protection from Magic scroll: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #2010 // More consistent Breach spell (always affects liches and rakshasas; doesn't penetrate Spell Turning): v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #2020 // Antimagic attacks penetrate improved invisibility: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #2030 // Iron Skins behaves like Stoneskin (can be brought down by Breach): v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #2070 // Blade Barrier and Globe of Blades only affect hostile creatures: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #2080 // Cap damage done by Skull Trap at 12d6: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #2090 // Make Power-Word: Blind single-target: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #2100 // Make Minute Meteors into +2 weapons: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #2110 // Reduce the power of Inquisitors' Dispel Magic -> Inquisitors dispel at 1.5 x their level (not twice their level): v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #2120 // Slightly weaken insect plague spells, and let fire shields block them: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #2140 // Slightly increase the power of Mantle, Improved Mantle, and Absolute Immunity: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #2150 // Make spell sequencers, spell triggers, and contingencies learnable by all mages: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #2160 // Add an extra copy of some hard-to-find spell scrolls: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #2170 // True Sight/True Seeing spells protect from magical blindness: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #3030 // Re-introduce potions of extra-healing: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #3110 // Change Carsomyr so that its Dispel on contact power grants a saving throw: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #4000 // Faster Bears: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #4010 // Grant large, flying, non-solid or similar creatures protection from Web and Entangle: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #4020 // More realistic wolves and wild dogs: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #4180 // Make Freedom scrolls available earlier: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #4215 // Remove unrealistically helpful items from certain areas: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #4216 // Remove unrealistically convenient ammunition from certain areas -> Only remove nonmagical ammo from random containers: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #5000 // Ease-of-use party AI: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #5020 // Remove the blur graphic effect from the Cloak of Displacement: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #5030 // Remove animation from the Cloak of Mirroring (leave it for other spells and effects that use the same graphic): v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #5900 // Initialise AI components (required for all tactical and AI components): v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #6000 // Smarter general AI: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #6010 // Better calls for help: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #6024 // Add high-level abilities (HLAs) to spellcasters -> All eligible spellcasters in Throne of Bhaal and Shadows of Amn get HLAs (very challenging and not really recommended!): v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #6030 // Smarter Mages -> Mages cast some short-duration spells instantly at start of combat, to simulate pre-battle casting: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #6040 // Smarter Priests -> Priests cast some short-duration spells instantly at start of combat, to simulate pre-battle casting: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #6102 // Potions for NPCs -> Half the potions dropped by slain enemies break and are lost: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #6200 // Improved Spiders: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #6300 // Smarter sirines and dryads: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #6310 // Slightly harder carrion crawlers: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #6320 // Smarter basilisks: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #6500 // Improved golems: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #6510 // Improved fiends -> Fiends have about 50 percent more hit points than normal: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #6520 // Smarter genies -> Genies have about 50 percent more hit points than normal: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #6530 // Smarter celestials -> Celestials have about 50 percent more hit points than normal: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #6540 // Smarter dragons -> Dragons have a substantial hit point increase: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #6551 // Smarter beholders -> Don't give beholder rays any chance of burning through spell protections; beholder antimagic blocks all spells, including harmful ones, for a round (simulates D&D rules): v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #6561 // Smarter mind flayers -> Illithids have enhanced damage resistance; Illithids can see through invisibility (matches Tactics mod): v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #6570 // Smarter githyanki: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #6580 // Improved Vampires: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #6590 // Smarter Throne of Bhaal final villain: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #6800 // Smarter Illasera: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #6810 // Smarter Gromnir: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #6820 // Smarter Yaga-Shura: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #6830 // Smarter Abazigal: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #6840 // Give Ascension versions of Irenicus and Sendai SCS scripts and abilities: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #6850 // Give Ascension demons SCS scripts and abilities: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #7000 // Improved doppelgangers: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #7010 // Tougher Black Talons and Iron Throne guards: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #7020 // Improved deployment for parties of assassins: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #7030 // Dark Side-based kobold upgrade: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #7040 // Relocated bounty hunters: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #7050 // Improved Ulcaster: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #7060 // Improved Balduran's Isle: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #7070 // Improved Durlag's Tower: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #7080 // Improved Demon Cultists: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #7090 // Improved Cloakwood Druids: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #7100 // Improved Bassilus: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #7110 // Improved Drasus party: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #7130 // Improved Red Wizards: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #7140 // Improved Undercity party: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #7200 // Tougher chapter-two end battle: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #7210 // Tougher chapter-three end battle: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #7220 // Tougher chapter-four end battle: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #7230 // Tougher chapter-five end battle: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #7250 // Improved final battle: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #7900 // Improved minor encounters: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #8000 // Make the starting dungeon slightly harder: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #8010 // Improved Shade Lord: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #8020 // Spellcasting Demiliches: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #8030 // More resilient trolls: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #8042 // Increase difficulty of level-dependent monster groupings -> Almost-maximum difficulty (maximum for everything except liches): v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #8050 // Improved Random Encounters: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #8061 // Improved de'Arnise Keep ("Tactics Remix") -> Enhanced spirit trolls (as in Tactics): v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #8070 // Improved Unseeing Eye: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #8081 // Improved Bodhi (Tactics Remix) -> Original Tactics Improved Bodhi with SCSII scripting: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #8100 // Improved battle with Irenicus in Spellhold: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #8110 // Improved Sahuagin: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #8120 // Improved Beholder hive (adapted from Quest Pack): v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #8130 // Prevent resting in the Illithid city: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #8140 // Slightly Improved Drow -> Upgrade Ust Natha's defences: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #8150 // Slightly Improved Watcher's Keep: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #8160 // Improved Fire Giant temple: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #8170 // Enhanced Sendai's Enclave: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #8180 // Improved Abazigal's Lair: v31
    ~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #8190 // Improved Minor Encounters: v31
  • MyragMyrag Member Posts: 328
    edited January 2019
    @semiticgod I tested manual installation today. Works great.

    My order of installation was taken from weidu log from previous BWS/EE Mod Installations.

    Ascension > Tweaks Anthology > SCS v32 RC8 > aTweaks > Jimfix > UI mods.

    I will probably use this installation from now on.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    I'm trying manual, too. I accidentally installed SCS first (encountered no problems) and now, after installing Ascension, right now I'm reinstalling the AI components that seem relevant to ToB, like the Improved Abazigal's Lair and such.
  • MyragMyrag Member Posts: 328
    edited January 2019
    semiticgod said:

    I'm trying manual, too. I accidentally installed SCS first (encountered no problems) and now, after installing Ascension, right now I'm reinstalling the AI components that seem relevant to ToB, like the Improved Abazigal's Lair and such.

    I think I saw thread somewhere where they said Ascension should be before SCS or it will override/mess SCS scripts for bosses. Not sure how relevant that is this days though.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    SCS skipped some components during re-installation because they required Ascension, even though I had Ascension. Looks like I do have to install Ascension before SCS; I can't fix it by trying to re-install SCS on top of Ascension.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
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  • DavidWDavidW Member Posts: 823
    Myrag said:


    I think I saw thread somewhere where they said Ascension should be before SCS or it will override/mess SCS scripts for bosses. Not sure how relevant that is this days though.

    Completely relevant. SCS has Ascension-only content; if Ascension isn't installed when SCS installs, it won't know to install it.

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited January 2019
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • MyragMyrag Member Posts: 328
    chimaera said:

    However, because the gog versions install so quickly, I've always done a full game reinstall (with removing all folders), instead of reinstalling only mods.

    Me too, also GOG clean install every time. I rever reinstalled any mods, always did full via BWS. Only had following mods Ascension, Tweaks Anthology, SCS, aTweaks, Jimfix.
  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 2,538
    I do that for any mega mod that I install. It gives a better overview of what is installed and what not (since the weidu log is large I only look at the folders I have).
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    I made a clean install with Ascension, Tweaks Anthology, SCS v31, aTweaks, and Jimfix, in that order, and everything went fine. The magic attack spells did need to be tweaked, though: while they didn't summon invisible critters anymore, they had Flag 9 instead of the "can target invisible creatures" flag, and therefore couldn't bypass invisibility until I added the right flag.
  • DavidWDavidW Member Posts: 823
    That's odd. It's working in v32 (just tested it) and I didn't think there were any relevant 31->32 changes.
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