@Skatan A lot of younger people are just no longer used to reading handwritten text. And the ability to read cursive is slowly becoming almost rare.
Hey! I'm younger than BG1 itself, but I can read the curliest cursives you can get! And my cursives... well, well, you would need a keen eye to decipher them!
I think I'm one of the few ones who can read them.
The BG2 interface was functionally far superior to BG1, being technically more advanced and refined. But as far as aesthetics, I always hated it. The H.R. Giger quality just didn't make sense, it didn't match the tone of the story or the setting.
I don't agree with you there, in my opinion the edgy Gigeresque motifs actually fit quite well with the themes in BG2. Just watch the intro again—it's clear that they were going for a creepy alien vibe for what Irenicus is doing to you.
But even as a general theme, I think it fits. The game is called "Shadows of Amn" and it takes place in a wealthy, opulent city that holds dark and disturbing secrets beneath the surface. Such as: a powerful slaver enclave, a secretive mage who abducts people and runs inhumane experiments on them in his underground lab, a vampire coven warring to take over the criminal underground, a doomsday cult worshiping a nest of beholders, several liches plotting to take over, and so on.
When you look at the BG saga as a whole (SoD notwithstanding), BG2 is the middle act, the low point. As The Empire Strikes Back is to Star Wars, it is the darkest chapter of the trilogy, where our protagonists are constantly losing ground to the villain and don't really get anywhere. By the end, we literally got dragged through Hell.
Nostalgia doesn't have much effect on me. Though even when I was 8 and played BG for the first time, I HATED the grey stone. Grey is just the absolute, most boring color in the world.
Interesting indeed. Much as I’m not a fan of any of the EE UIs, SoD would be my favorite in terms of looks (though I wouldn’t want to use it because it’s new and it doesn’t kick me in the nostalgias.)
It certainly is a good thing that the EEs made their UI more flexibly moddable, seeing how different people have wildly different tastes
funny thing is, the only reason why i bought SoD was because of the that black UI, i thought it looked pretty sharp, i especially love the font, its so crisp and perfect looking, but with that being said, once the other chum there whose user name starts with a "K" ( my apologies for being to lazy to find your name ) is done with that original UI mod, that UI mod will be racing to my BG games at warp speed
and i never use mods in my BG games ( well except for my own "mods" to fix unwanted beamdog thingies )
Interesting indeed. Much as I’m not a fan of any of the EE UIs, SoD would be my favorite in terms of looks (though I wouldn’t want to use it because it’s new and it doesn’t kick me in the nostalgias.)
It certainly is a good thing that the EEs made their UI more flexibly moddable, seeing how different people have wildly different tastes
funny thing is, the only reason why i bought SoD was because of the that black UI, i thought it looked pretty sharp, i especially love the font, its so crisp and perfect looking, but with that being said, once the other chum there whose user name starts with a "K" ( my apologies for being to lazy to find your name ) is done with that original UI mod, that UI mod will be racing to my BG games at warp speed
and i never use mods in my BG games ( well except for my own "mods" to fix unwanted beamdog thingies )
I've been wanting to create two separate installs of BG:EE for that occasion, then use the grey stone UI for the BG1 part and the obsidian one for the SoD part. That would be a dream come true.
Then again, I've always been of the opinion that the stylistic differences between the games should be celebrated, not uniformized. *cough* (different helmet styles between BG1 and BG2) *cough*
The original poster refers to 2.0+ compared to 1.3, not compared with bioware's original games.
most people don't notice the 2.0 downgrades though so it's quite the unpopular opinion to bash it.
Are you kidding? Bashing the 2.0 update is one of the most popular pastimes around here. The only reason it might seem unpopular is that it's beating an extremely dead horse.
The 1.3 games were, to a greater or lesser degree, an inflexible buggy mess. And they were released in the modern era, so not likely to be referred to with such emotional/nostalgic terms as "my beloved game." It's more reasonable to read the first post as being about the pre-EE games.
as far as i could recall 1.3 was fine with my games ( or am i thinking of 1.4? ) whichever the last patch before 2.x was, was just fine with me, i didn't have any game breaking bugs and if i did have bugs they didn't ruin the experience
in fact i was going to keep that version forever, but i decided for the lulz to keep my game always upgraded to the highest version ( at least on steam, my laptop still has the beamdog launcher game at 1.3 or 1.4 )
The 1.3 games were, to a greater or lesser degree, an inflexible buggy mess. And they were released in the modern era, so not likely to be referred to with such emotional/nostalgic terms as "my beloved game." It's more reasonable to read the first post as being about the pre-EE games.
1.3 wasn't a buggy mess when you compare it to 2.5. It had different bugs, sure, but I'm fairly certain the list of unresolved issues on Redmine hasn't become shorter since the 1.3 days.
In fairness, Redmine bug-reporting didn't exist when the 1.3 patch was out, so a comparison of Redmine bug reports is utterly meaningless.
You're right, my bad. My larger point that I was trying to make was that if we could reliably quantify the number of issues in v1.3 compared to v2.5, v2.5 likely wouldn't come out looking good. In my—admittedly unresearched, but I like to think reasonably well-informed—opinion.
And I think it's dishonest to frame all criticism of the 2.0+ game versions as "bashing". "Bashing" implies invalid criticism, which clearly doesn't apply to cases where people are stating their preferences or listing objective issues.
@Adul That might hold more weight if most of the things I see people complaining about weren't subjective ranting. "The new UI is so ugly, I prefer the old one" is the single most common complaint I see.
Speaking of bugs, is anyone willing to test if it's still possible to dispel the protection from Sunfire that is automatically put upon a mage right before the Sunfire spell is released?
It used to really irritate me in the past when I was using Carsomyr to get through enemies' Stoneskins and then they killed themselves with Sunfire and I didn't get any XP for it. I never got around to reporting it because it would require me to first make a clean install and then see if the bug is still around in an unmodded game.
@Adul That might hold more weight if most of the things I see people complaining about weren't subjective ranting. "The new UI is so ugly, I prefer the old one" is the single most common complaint I see.
Sure, if they use negatively charged language while stating their preference, you could reasonably call it bashing—if you're inclined to use negatively charged language yourself, which might just stoke the fire. But I don't think people just stating their preferences in neutral terms qualifies as bashing.
E.g. you could say the OP was bashing v2.5, but other than that the responses in this thread criticizing v2.5 have been—for the most part—civil. Wouldn't you agree?
Speaking of bugs, is anyone willing to test if it's still possible to dispel the protection from Sunfire that is automatically put upon a mage right before the Sunfire spell is released?
It used to really irritate me in the past when I was using Carsomyr to get through enemies' Stoneskins and then they killed themselves with Sunfire and I didn't get any XP for it. I never got around to reporting it because it would require me to first make a clean install and then see if the bug is still around in an unmodded game.
in the original game i have never seen a mage use sunfire, and since you are using carsomyr i am going to assume you are strictly playing bg2, so im going to assume its a mod that makes it so mages are using sunfire
perhaps there is a mod that is making it so mages are killing themselves with it? personally i never used sunfire myself, so i can't tell if its a game problem or a mod problem
Every new patch fixes a lot of gameplay issues, so yes 2.5 is the better version if you look at how the engine handles the D&D rules.
But if you look at the UI, every version since 2.0, even 2.5, has introduced bugs (and I'm not talking about aesthetic changes that are subjective, I'm talking about things that used to work that no longer work). For people that care a lot about details like me, in one way, the new versions are worse.
And it's even worse because:
1) most of these patches were not supposed to change things related to UI but still managed to break UI things.
2) at least 2.6 (and maybe the future patches) don't seem to focus on fixing the UI bugs.
@subtledoctor It's clear that you and I have very different perspectives of the 1.3 version. In your view, it was old and busted, and in mine, it was probably the best state the game has ever been in. And I know that sounds crazy to you, you made that clear. It's still what I think. That's why I don't throw out the possibility of someone calling BG:EE v1.3 their "beloved" game. And even though that adjective is a little bit dramatic for my tastes—I love Baldur's Gate as a whole; I don't think I ever loved a patch—I would somewhat agree with the sentiment behind it.
And I do acknowledge that each new game version fixes a fairly large number of bugs—I'm saying "fairly", because considering the number of bugs that still need to be fixed, and the frequency of the updates, the number is actually relatively very small, in my opinion. But I understand that v1.3 had a huge number of bugs that are now fixed. However, I would argue that it also lacked and even greater number of issues that are now in v2.5. Most of those issues came with the advent of the infamous 2.0, which—again—in my view, was a disastrous patch that remade the entire UI and replaced it with a version that had so many bugs, and lacked polish to such an extent, that it's honestly made me reevaluate Beamdog's abilities as a developer. Sure, it also made the UI much more moddable, and believe me, I do appreciate that, but that doesn't do much to repair the damage it has done.
The 2.2 to 2.5 patches, in addition to fixing bugs, actually have made some improvements to the v2.0 UI—though as @lefreut pointed out, they have also introduced issues in the areas that they were trying to improve—but I think what little effort Beamdog's put into fixing the UI does little more than smear some nail polish on teetering walls of the dilapidated shed that is the v2.0 UI.
And I do realize I'm using dramatic language there. It's meant to briefly and succinctly illustrate how I feel about the current UI situation.
I could also go into a different tangent about how every time Beamdog tries to address a supposed content issue in BG:EE—which is their only game where I've found this criticism true on a fundamental level—there's some chance that the resulting content will end up coming out worse than how it started out. Again, in my opinion. This too affects how much value I think their recent patches have brought to the table, and so it too goes into my "which version is better" equation. But this post has gone on long enough as it is, so I will refrain from going into more detail for now.
Comments
Though you are very likely correct there, I have to admit that "M" looks.. weird.
Hey! I'm younger than BG1 itself, but I can read the curliest cursives you can get! And my cursives... well, well, you would need a keen eye to decipher them!
I don't agree with you there, in my opinion the edgy Gigeresque motifs actually fit quite well with the themes in BG2. Just watch the intro again—it's clear that they were going for a creepy alien vibe for what Irenicus is doing to you.
But even as a general theme, I think it fits. The game is called "Shadows of Amn" and it takes place in a wealthy, opulent city that holds dark and disturbing secrets beneath the surface. Such as: a powerful slaver enclave, a secretive mage who abducts people and runs inhumane experiments on them in his underground lab, a vampire coven warring to take over the criminal underground, a doomsday cult worshiping a nest of beholders, several liches plotting to take over, and so on.
When you look at the BG saga as a whole (SoD notwithstanding), BG2 is the middle act, the low point. As The Empire Strikes Back is to Star Wars, it is the darkest chapter of the trilogy, where our protagonists are constantly losing ground to the villain and don't really get anywhere. By the end, we literally got dragged through Hell.
I see so many "coos" there... Gaelan Bayle, is that you?
I'll see myself out.
funny thing is, the only reason why i bought SoD was because of the that black UI, i thought it looked pretty sharp, i especially love the font, its so crisp and perfect looking, but with that being said, once the other chum there whose user name starts with a "K" ( my apologies for being to lazy to find your name ) is done with that original UI mod, that UI mod will be racing to my BG games at warp speed
and i never use mods in my BG games ( well except for my own "mods" to fix unwanted beamdog thingies
Better watch out you, you'll be blocked.
@Kilivitz who will, from now on, be known as "the other chum." @Adul I count on you to make this a thing in all future communications among us XD
I've been wanting to create two separate installs of BG:EE for that occasion, then use the grey stone UI for the BG1 part and the obsidian one for the SoD part. That would be a dream come true.
Then again, I've always been of the opinion that the stylistic differences between the games should be celebrated, not uniformized. *cough* (different helmet styles between BG1 and BG2) *cough*
Why hello there Kreb's Cycle.
Also, I admit to laughing about the COOs. Never thought about that.
most people don't notice the 2.0 downgrades though so it's quite the unpopular opinion to bash it.
as far as i could recall 1.3 was fine with my games ( or am i thinking of 1.4? ) whichever the last patch before 2.x was, was just fine with me, i didn't have any game breaking bugs and if i did have bugs they didn't ruin the experience
in fact i was going to keep that version forever, but i decided for the lulz to keep my game always upgraded to the highest version ( at least on steam, my laptop still has the beamdog launcher game at 1.3 or 1.4 )
no i did have issues with 2.0. i did not like the new journal so i used the leui mod to change it back to the one used in 1.3.
1.3 wasn't a buggy mess when you compare it to 2.5. It had different bugs, sure, but I'm fairly certain the list of unresolved issues on Redmine hasn't become shorter since the 1.3 days.
I remember when I was developing I Hate Undead, IWD stuck in 1.4 was a hell while doing things for BG(2)EE - at 2.X already was way easier.
As a player I also prefer 2.X, but I don't really care about UI.
You're right, my bad. My larger point that I was trying to make was that if we could reliably quantify the number of issues in v1.3 compared to v2.5, v2.5 likely wouldn't come out looking good. In my—admittedly unresearched, but I like to think reasonably well-informed—opinion.
And I think it's dishonest to frame all criticism of the 2.0+ game versions as "bashing". "Bashing" implies invalid criticism, which clearly doesn't apply to cases where people are stating their preferences or listing objective issues.
Having played the really earlier versions, 2.5 is definitely superior in my personal experience in regards to bugs and performance.
It used to really irritate me in the past when I was using Carsomyr to get through enemies' Stoneskins and then they killed themselves with Sunfire and I didn't get any XP for it. I never got around to reporting it because it would require me to first make a clean install and then see if the bug is still around in an unmodded game.
Sure, if they use negatively charged language while stating their preference, you could reasonably call it bashing—if you're inclined to use negatively charged language yourself, which might just stoke the fire. But I don't think people just stating their preferences in neutral terms qualifies as bashing.
E.g. you could say the OP was bashing v2.5, but other than that the responses in this thread criticizing v2.5 have been—for the most part—civil. Wouldn't you agree?
in the original game i have never seen a mage use sunfire, and since you are using carsomyr i am going to assume you are strictly playing bg2, so im going to assume its a mod that makes it so mages are using sunfire
perhaps there is a mod that is making it so mages are killing themselves with it? personally i never used sunfire myself, so i can't tell if its a game problem or a mod problem
But if you look at the UI, every version since 2.0, even 2.5, has introduced bugs (and I'm not talking about aesthetic changes that are subjective, I'm talking about things that used to work that no longer work). For people that care a lot about details like me, in one way, the new versions are worse.
And it's even worse because:
1) most of these patches were not supposed to change things related to UI but still managed to break UI things.
2) at least 2.6 (and maybe the future patches) don't seem to focus on fixing the UI bugs.
And I do acknowledge that each new game version fixes a fairly large number of bugs—I'm saying "fairly", because considering the number of bugs that still need to be fixed, and the frequency of the updates, the number is actually relatively very small, in my opinion. But I understand that v1.3 had a huge number of bugs that are now fixed. However, I would argue that it also lacked and even greater number of issues that are now in v2.5. Most of those issues came with the advent of the infamous 2.0, which—again—in my view, was a disastrous patch that remade the entire UI and replaced it with a version that had so many bugs, and lacked polish to such an extent, that it's honestly made me reevaluate Beamdog's abilities as a developer. Sure, it also made the UI much more moddable, and believe me, I do appreciate that, but that doesn't do much to repair the damage it has done.
The 2.2 to 2.5 patches, in addition to fixing bugs, actually have made some improvements to the v2.0 UI—though as @lefreut pointed out, they have also introduced issues in the areas that they were trying to improve—but I think what little effort Beamdog's put into fixing the UI does little more than smear some nail polish on teetering walls of the dilapidated shed that is the v2.0 UI.
And I do realize I'm using dramatic language there. It's meant to briefly and succinctly illustrate how I feel about the current UI situation.
I could also go into a different tangent about how every time Beamdog tries to address a supposed content issue in BG:EE—which is their only game where I've found this criticism true on a fundamental level—there's some chance that the resulting content will end up coming out worse than how it started out. Again, in my opinion. This too affects how much value I think their recent patches have brought to the table, and so it too goes into my "which version is better" equation. But this post has gone on long enough as it is, so I will refrain from going into more detail for now.