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Sir Sarles, or the Mace of Disruption

24

Comments

  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,282
    I play paladins all the time, and often undead hunters. I always keep the real illithium - anything else is a ville and base act imho, and should make paladins and rangers fall B) . Nothing less.

    Here is why:
    Illithium makes a great weapon into a superb weapon. The imm. to level drain makes a real difference - a difference that only a few items and spells make ( and with an endless duration). A must have for any party hunting the undead.

    And what happens to this fine and rare ingredient, that could help getting rid of the undead, if you give it to Sarles?
    It is to be showcased in the high halls of some fancy faith for no good use - its pride in its basest form. A just and good God would have none of it!!

    Cheating the church of helm is not an evil act . Its the right thing to do. The church is showboating its proud ways. If you look at the questgivers, it says a lot.
    Ridding the streets of shadow thiefs and vampires? Not our problem.
    Someone is taking our congregation? Kill them. And while you are it, give us a rare object of goodness so we can humble the other faiths. Thank you Helm!!!

    And the artist Sir Sarles? He is a vain and proud creature. He doesnt see the vampire attacks and is aloof to the obvious injustice going on in the streets.

    And where does Sarles lodge? At people who are connected to the mind flayers - mind flayers who are in the middle of building an army in sewers. The mind flayers who happen to harbour powerfull objects like the hammer of thunderbolts and the wand of wonder. Sarles wants to reduce a precious and rare metal into a showpiece - instead of doing some good.

    So giving Sarles the metal is not an act of goodness nor lawfull (there is more to the law than the letter of the law. I say giring Sarles the metal is a vile and unjust act - its pride at best, and helping genocide at worst.

    So keep the illithium and cheat the pridefull - anything else is evil.

    Btw: Imo the whole depiction of the churces is intended from Bioware. Its religion at its worst - and an intent mirror of the 1.200 century church in Rome. Martin Luther would agree with me on this... I think

    That's is a fine example of the difference between Intelligence and Wisdom.

    Well done.

    StummvonBordwehrGusinda
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,107
    edited May 10
    @StummvonBordwehr , I couldn't disagree more. That whole argument strikes me as a very tortured rationalization for doing something morally wrong. You just want the weapon because you want it, not because you need it to kill undead. Someone already mentioned that Azureedge is available at a very reasonable price and does almost the same thing. Undead can be destroyed many ways other than by that one particular weapon. I've never been unable to bring down any vampire or lich I needed to fight without this Mace of Disruption that I'm supposed to cheat the church to get.

    ArviaAmmarloliensemiticgod
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 8,589
    @BelgarathMTH How is getting the alloy cheating the church?

  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 349
    edited May 10
    I'm having a deja-vu.
    We're all going in circles.

    I didn't know about Azuredge, and just with the regular Mace of Disruption in Anomen's hand, me being an Undead Hunter, and Keldorn wearing that amulet you get from Aran Linvail, the fight against Bodhi was easy. The only difficulty was to kill her before Drizzt did it.

    @StummvonBordwehr
    If you like the upgraded Mace, get it. If you want to spite Sarles and the Church of Helm, do it.
    But I don't think you can justify it as something a real paladin would ever do.

    BelgarathMTH
  • StummvonBordwehrStummvonBordwehr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 573
    edited May 11
    @BelgarathMTH
    It may be a rationalization, and the smiley face with sunglasses in the top of my post may even suggest that... but I am not trangressing further than I can live with.

    After all reinacting these these choices in a fantasy setting gives leeway for detours - and trial and error. So my views are my own, and nothing more.

    But forging the item is the right thing to do imho. If you dont need it, sell it to joluv or even better donate it in some coffer in the hall of the radiant heart. You may not need it, but the paladins who are level drained to death in Bodhis lair when they help you kill the vampires might.

    Also I do fell that my chastining of the church has some merit. The church of helm is located aloof from the real world and they cannot be compelled to expel the shadow thieves and vampires? Is this Helm the lawfuls bidding that they should not care?Apparantly so.

    The church cares about trinkets, art and glory. The prey of the vampires cannot bother the Church it seems. But that is just me - I dont have a monopoly on truth, but the case of taking or not taking the illithium has more than one side.

    @Arvia
    These discussions tends to run in circles. I am sorry if my post has come off as trolling. It was not intended so. But I honestly think I can justify the RPing - especially as a paladin. But thats the great thing about this game - it has immense depth and can be played in single player...

    Post edited by StummvonBordwehr on
    BelgarathMTHlolien
  • NeverusedNeverused Member Posts: 640
    Welllllllll there’s ways to justify it roleplaying a paladin, even if the dialogues aren’t really present in the game. The roleplay would probably involve already having the MoD, learning it can be upgraded by illithium, and then talking with the sponsoring temple about the issue. Maybe have the ore seller involved, talk about the difference in quality of the illithium and the fake illithium, and then see what the temple decides. The high priests of Helm and Lathandar aren’t fleshed out enough for me to know what they’d choose at this point: maybe they’d sanction the swap for donating the weapon once it’s no longer needed (after killing Bodhi, maybe)or maybe they just let you give him the fake illithium, or they ask for honesty with Sir Sarles.

    I think this’d be a reasonable roleplaying for a paladin to give the fake illithium to Sir Sarles.

    gorgonzolaBelgarathMTHThacoBelllolien
  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 963
    edited May 10
    @Arvia Yes, "sticking to every rule for the sake of the rule" is LN, not LG.
    But you are not lawful if you do not have a specific reason in mind for why you are doing what you are doing.
    "Do your best to do the right thing" does not meet the standard of a rule of how you should act because "the right thing" (ie: that which you should do) has not been defined at all.
    As such, it is chaotic guideline, not a lawful one.
    Following one's conscience is actually in the description of what it means to be chaotic.

    lolien
  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 349
    Okay, still running in circles. I'm out, I've said what I had to say on the subject. If I start to sound like a parrot in my last three posts, it's time to do something else 🙂.

    @StummvonBordwehr , no offense taken.

    @Humanoid_Taifun , I still disagree. Politely.

    Going to Smite some Evil now. Good evening, everyone (or whatever the time is where you are) *bows and disappears into the forests of Faerun*

    StummvonBordwehrBelgarathMTHlolien
  • ElysianEchoesElysianEchoes Member Posts: 231
    Ever seen Gamers 2? The mostly chaotic party gets around having a paladin in the group with clever misdirection and a well timed use of a memory altering spell.

    One could simply roleplay the party pulled one over on the paladin, and said paladin is none the wiser.

    "Didn't we give that to the church of Helm?" -paladin

    "What, this? This is a keepsake from my magic teacher, but I'm willing to sacrifice it for the greater good of having a tool to fight evil" -Imoen

    *Snicker* -rest of party.

    semiticgod
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,448
    the undead killing effect of the mace is also present in azuredge, that used ranged by a fighter with gww can be lethal as there is a great chance that it destroy a lich even before it has the time to put on defenses, also a lower level fighter with gm in it and improved haste has good chance.

    but there are 2 problems with azuredge that make the mace special, it has not protection from level draining and is usable by less people.

    the level drain is really annoying and very few items grant protection against it, while there are situations where many enemies at the same time attack and level drain. a certain room in wk maze level is a good example. if a party has not the luxury to have an immune undead hunter, fighter mages that can protect themselves with pfmw and does wk before yaga shura only a tank will be protected against the level drain by items, and the spell is long to cast, lasts short and your cleric can only protect the party to some extent.

    the other problem of adzuredge is that only good oriented people that can use an axe can use it, and is not granted that you have a toon that can use an axe effectively and is also good. to find someone effective with the mace is much more easy, aerie and anomen are 2 good candidates.

    to not talk about the fact that using both the weapons is better then using only one.
    with a mage charname, minsc with the axe, anomen with the upgrded mace and and jaheira with the amulet and her weapon of choice some battles are much more easy then with jaheira tanking for everybody and minsc in the bask that hope to vorpal many demon knights and a cambion.
    with that party if you happen to have also imoen and aerie and have korgan instead of minsc you don't have any one that can use an anti undead axe.

    so azuredge, that is a really good weapon, is not an equivalent of the mace, does something similar but there are really important differences that can make it completely not useful for some parties.

    ThacoBellStummvonBordwehrlolien
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,107
    @StummvonBordwehr , I concede your point about the Church of Helm. What happens if you try to give the Church of Lathander the cheap knockoff? Also, is anyone lying to anyone anywhere along the way here about what they're getting?

    Thank you for not taking my disagreement with your previous post personally, and for responding thoughtfully and with kindness and respect.

    StummvonBordwehrgorgonzola
  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 423
    edited May 11
    Arvia wrote: »
    @ThacoBell , don't apologize, we're just discussing opinions here, and I believe I didn't misunderstand you. I just disagreed politely 🙂

    @Nuin , do you really think that Star Wars is more black and white than a setting with fixed alignments?
    I didn't think of Yoda when I wrote my own post (@BelgarathMTH , you have a talent to find the right examples) , but it's exactly what I meant.
    And nobody says that lawful good types, or those trying to be, don't make mistakes and learn from them. But they know directly if it was a mistake. Because it feels wrong.

    "Expecting too much from the galaxy's mortal races" ?
    No. Expectations and ideals don't need to be adapted to the actual situation, it's the other way round.
    The Jedi, Starfleet, the good ones in Lord of the Rings, whoever else. Trying to be better than what we are is what makes them change fate, and the world, and themselves, too.

    Hmmm I wonder if my kids are old enough for Star Wars (the "old" movies).

    You misunderstand then, because the thing about settings like the worlds of LotR and Star Wars is that "true" good and evil exist in them. D&D is a bit more convoluted, because although "good" and "evil" forces do exist in the setting the game allows DMs their own interpretation of these concepts. Hell, in some older interpretations the archdevil Asmodeus, practically the greater deity of evil, is what he is because he is one-half of the cosmic force that helped bring creation into being.

    In Star Wars/LotR something can be definitively good or evil. There is no "even if I'm nice to this person there's a chance my actions can cause the suffering of other people" ripple in this setting. We don't think about the fall of the Jedi in terms of how the light side became so complacent that they were falling for evil hijinks left and right and were fodder for some pretty obvious manipulations, we think about it only in terms of the rise of the Sith/Emperor Palpatine. We don't look at Yoda and think "flawed" and "hypocrite" considering what happened to Dooku (like we would if this were a real life teacher/student situation) - we're simply not supposed to think about Yoda that way. Because this is Star Wars. In this world good/evil are not relative, they are very real things/factions/forces and seemingly flawed acts by good characters are explained away as something like stepping stones to more good... or something.

    I enjoy the Star Wars/LotR settings for what they are, and perhaps the various concepts in these settings have value IRL as ideals to strive for, but that's as far as it goes for me. And as far as conscience goes, many evil things have been done IRL by people who were simply listening to the quiet, albeit flawed voice inside of them.

    Post edited by Nuin on
  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 806
    Using the alloy for Sarles (when being open about it) is certainly ok by itself, if you consider that you tried your best.

    But getting the pure ore AND the alloy in order to keep the pure ore for your own purposes and the impure alloy for the church, is at least non lawful.

    gorgonzolaThacoBellDhariusBelgarathMTH
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,448
    good point @Ammar, but it really depend on the dialogue, and i can not look at the game files to see it and don't have a savegame to test it now.
    so i don't know if it is possible to rp that you chose the alloy way as the more sure one as is not certain that you will find the real ithillium, and conclude the quest without trying to cheat sarles and having the church happy at the end and then to talk again with the ore merchant as you find the mace and cromwell tells you that it can be upgraded. that way also a lawful charname can have both the quest completed and the weapon upgraded, so it depends on if the ore merchant tells you about her contact also at quest ended or not. with a very little stretch to rp is possible to have her give you the ore and the contact name and then decide to go for the most sure way, being open with sarles and the church that you have found a good substitute of the ore, then when you find the mace to go for the real thing.

    a not lawful could also probably find neb in an other way, exploring a suspect house with trapped door, but to break in houses is not lawful, so a lawful toon would not do it as would not chose to fight for celestial fury, but apologize and leave that building as they tell him that he is not welcome there.

    To be lawful limit the choices you can make and this is one of the reasons i usually never chose lawful if not for being a pally or for the ferret, i like more freedom in the way i can rp.

  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 499
    edited May 11
    Lawful characters respect authority, tell the truth, and keep their word. Chaotic characters follow their consciences.

    Good characters put others' needs ahead of their own. Evil characters take what they want because they deserve it more than other people do.

    Many CHARNAMEs promise to retrieve illithium for Sarles but then take a different course if their consciences say they deserve it more than Sarles. Which is understandable as Sarles is manifestly unfit whereas CHARNAME would use it for a nobler purpose. Not sure how that makes it a lawful good decision, though.

    Post edited by jsaving on
  • AionZAionZ Member Posts: 2,816
    Lawful characters respect authority
    I dunno about that... not necessarily. Vhailor from PS:T, Samara from ME, Captain America (though there’s an argument for Neutral Good here), Bruce Wayne (though again, ambiguously Neutral Good) are examples off the top of my head of characters who subscribe to a personal code and will happily defy authority if it clashes with their code.

    I immediately think of Samara whenever someone claims Lawful people must respect local authority. Her recruitment quest completely goes against that yet she’s the prime example of a Lawful character in the trilogy.

    ThacoBell
  • _Nightfall__Nightfall_ Member Posts: 179
    I have gone for the mace sometimes but it always bothers me. I think that that in the game there are rare chances to do the right thing and be rewarded for it. I am not sure it is any different in real life.

    I don’t think that the mace is a choice between good and evil, more of doing what you agreed to do with no evil or good influences to say,”This is why I did not do it.” This is more like a question I read about, would you kill a friend to save a million people? Would you betray a nation to save a friend? I loved the answer in the book. Should I betray my nation or my friend? I would hope that I have the courage to betray my nation.

    I rarely get the mace because I run clerics most of the time, good clerics. I tend to be more free about my choice if I am not running a Cleric but it still bothers me. I have a Rabi friend, though I promise you I do not believe in religion at all, he has often asked why morality is based on the times, isn’t right and wrong a universal and constant thing? I think that probably he is correct, right and wrong are constants and yet...

    We live in the real world, we get away in this game and, well,
    It is just a game. Take responsibility for yourself, don’t do anything to hurt anyone else and give back. Other than that, yes even in the game I hold myself to those rules, I play how I want to. The fun is choosing how we play, right?

    gorgonzolaBelgarathMTH
  • ANOFANOF Member Posts: 62
    If to take this quest under the Temple of Helm and you’re playing to your alignment, then Lawful types can only take one course of action; play it fair and give Sir Sarles the illithium.

    The irony is that once you have the illithium, you could lawfully keep it.

    Sir Sarles does ask you to get the illithium for him. But he never actually asks you to give it to him. Getting something for someone and giving it to them are two different actions, and you can take the position that they therefore require two different requests. It’s only because the latter is implied by the former that people rarely ever make both requests. And because Sarles doesn’t expressly ask you to give him the illithium, you can lawfully not give it to him. You’d lose out on XP, obviously, but you’ll make up for it and then some with the kind of enemies you can now take down with the improved Mace of Disruption

    If you’re Chaotic Good and thus feel that you have to keep your word and that you have to try to satisfy the Temple of Helm’s request to gain Sir Sarles’ services, but you want the illithium to improve the Mace of Disruption, you can just try to deceive Sir Sarles. You’re still trying to gain the services of Sir Sarles and thus keeping your word. You’re just doing it in a manner where you gain what you want. The fact that you fail to deceive Sir Sarles is immaterial.

    And because you can make the Temple of Helm happy with the fake illithium, Chaotic Good types can consider themselves as still having satisfied the Temple, which they have done, even if they haven’t fulfilled their request. It’s a case of the ends justifying the means, which is something that definitely fits with being Chaotic Good.

    If you’re Chaotic Neutral alignment, you can just keep the illithium and do whatever you feel like after that.

    BelgarathMTH
  • karnor00karnor00 Member Posts: 672
    As others have said before, it’s possible to do the quest without any subterfuge.

    You can get the illithium substitute from the vendor and bring this to Sir Sarles, telling him that it isn’t real illithium.

    He storms off in a huff and then you tell the temple that you were unable to get Sir Sarles to make a sculpture. But then the high priest likes the lump of fake illithium and everyone is happy.

    Well except Sir Sarles but he’s a jerk anyway. And his being unhappy isn’t due to being lied to.

    Eventually when you discover you need real illithium to upgrade the mace, you can visit the dark dwarf supplier to get it.

    ronaldo
  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 499
    Yes, you can openly confess you aren't going to fulfill your pledge to provide illithium. No subterfuge in that, for sure, though the not-keeping-your-word part of this solution would still be a problem for lawful characters.

    gorgonzola
  • DhariusDharius Member Posts: 283
    edited May 13
    This is one of those cases in BG2 where I always feel compelled to ‘do the right thing’ by giving Sir Sarles the genuine illithium, rather than the fake, even though it prodcues a lesser reward, and the fake sculpture is still valued by the temple anyway. Even though Sir Sarles is quite arrogant, a promise is a promise.

    Similarly I can’t bring myself to kill Qilue for the aboleth later in the game, even though Qilue is clearly evil and carries an excellent magical item. It just seems completely unethical, and it’s morally more satisfying to tell the aboleth to go hang.

    BelgarathMTH
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,448
    about killing quilue i think it is different as it is not so self evident that refusing to accomplish the aboleth's request will have no consequence, as you don't really know that he will chose to dismiss you if you menace to expose him. it is a gamble to do it, even if with metagame knowledge we know we win every time if we gamble that way.
    so a charmame, even a lawful good one, can chose to kill quilue to avoid to put at risk his party, people that is risking their lives to help him in his quest, or can chose to risk and refuse the task that the aboleth want to force him into.
    both the ways are rp sound.

    to accept the route proposed by the ore merchant instead of try his best to find the real thing is a more problematic choice for a LG charname, he promised to the church to do his best and even if he chose the other route without lying, telling both to sarles and the priest that i bring an alloy, it is not the best he can do.
    but it still can be done, with a little stretch, as charname can chose the way he is sure will work, and as the merchant is not able to obtain the true metal there is not certainty that contacting his source, the durgar, will bring success.
    so to go to sarles and propose him the best substitute can have a sense even for a LG, as he promised to try his best to have the statue done, not to bring illithium to sarles.
    if sarles is a .... and refuses to work with anything but a metal that there is no sure way to find in town it is not fault of charname. if sarles would have asked to try to find the real illithium after charname propoeses the alloy and charname would have refused it would have been different, but it is not so.

    BelgarathMTH
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 8,589
    You don't promise the church to bring Illithium. You promise to try to acquire his services. Why is everyone thinking the pure vs. alloy is some kind of lawful/chaotic debate? It isn't.

    StummvonBordwehrgorgonzolaRaduziel
  • DhariusDharius Member Posts: 283
    edited May 14
    Well, it’s more a sort of a good customer service debate...

    StummvonBordwehr
  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 499
    edited May 15
    You don't promise the church you'll "try" to acquire his services, you promise to acquire his services. Then when you ask Sarles what it will take to recruit him, he says he'll be insulted by anything less than pure illithium and won't work unless you find the actual metal and give it to him.

    You can choose to give him the alloy anyway, sure. But it's hard to see how doing that would even count as "trying" to recruit Sarles since you've already been told he won't accept it.

    None of that would matter much to a neutral or chaotic character. After all, Sarles is a world-class jerk and the pure ore would be wasted in a sculpture when it could instead be put to better use in CHARNAME's mace. But doing something you know will sabotage Sarles' recruitment, rendering you unable to fulfill your promise, isn't a lawful act.

    Post edited by jsaving on
  • Gatekeep3rGatekeep3r Member Posts: 91
    jsaving wrote: »
    But doing something you know will sabotage Sarles' recruitment, rendering you unable to fulfill your promise, isn't a lawful act.

    I see your point, but an Undead Hunter is by definition LG. Lawful since they follow the word of their god. And their god in this case would never condone using precious metal for something as ridiculous as a sculpture.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,448
    edited May 15
    @gorgonzola If you perform the assassination, are you not worried that you are becoming a loose end that the aboleth might want to get rid of?
    it completely depends on how you decide to rp your charname and on the int, char and wis he has, the risk is real, but also the risk that he decide to expose you if you refuse is real as well.
    for him you are only o tool for his own game, he don't have any other interest on you, and if you accept to do what he want from you he has no real reason to get rid of you, as you are not really a peril for him and you can be used in the future for other parts of his game. And probably he don't has any way to get rid of you without putting his position at some risk, he can read minds and see your real nature even if you are disguised as a drow, but he seems to lack the ability to influence other minds, he don't dominate you to force you to kill for him. To get rid of you he puts himself at risk, he is well aware of it, and this is the reason why if you refuse there is a stalemate situation, each part can not act against the other without risk.

    he is well aware of that, but charname can be or not be aware of it depending on how you rp him, if he is enough wise, intelligent and sure of himself he is aware and the stalemate is the outcome, if he is not enough smart the aboleth wins the game.


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