Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

Neverwinter Nights: Enhanced Edition has been released! Visit nwn.beamdog.com to make an order. NWN:EE FAQ is available.
Soundtracks for BG:EE, SoD, BG2:EE, IWD:EE, PST:EE are now available in the Beamdog store.
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

Sir Sarles, or the Mace of Disruption

124»

Comments

  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 75
    Ammar wrote: »
    Also noting, it is a bit strange that a lawful character would wander around in the docks and randomly bring the Illithium to Cromwell at all, instead of directly returning home with it. After all, it is valuable and CHARNAME could get robbed.
    Depending on timing, there doesn't have to be anything random about it. If you show up at Cromwell's with the Mace of Disruption +1, he'll tell you that he could upgrade it with illithium. So then, if you've already picked up the mace, you know in-character what the illithium can be used for. I think there are other mentions of illithium being good for anti-undead weapons as well, so it's not hard to justify some in-character knowledge there.

    And, of course, Maheer in the promenade will refer you to Cromwell if you ask about special weapons. What adventurer wouldn't check out that lead?

    ThacoBell
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,520
    edited May 21
    i think that the situation in the game is completely different from the rl situations in which someone get payed to find a seller or the right person that can do something as in the game is a seller itself that gives the information, in rl every time a seller could not give me something he did address me to some other seller for free, the people that usually ask money to give such information trade knowledge, not goods.

    that told the ore merchant is free to do what she wants, and to buy the information from her is not something that a LG should not do, even if the durgar is not happy i would not call it a birbe.

    anyway i play LG only if the charname class compel me to do it, and i always give to the artist the fake illithium, i have much more problems in rp the part where i side with the shadow thieves and other parts of the game that have to be done to beat it, but as a LG pally i probably would not have done.
    with any other good alignment i have even less problems in using the metal for something that actually can be used for goodness, also a statue in a temple is useful for goodness, but it does not depend in any way by the material it is crafted with.

    i like the rp aspect of those games, but when it becomes something like it is in this thread i completely loose any interest in it, as it looks to me more a prison then a way to give more flavor to the game.
    and this is only my personal opinion on the matter of crafting the mace or an illithium statue, surely it has not to be the truth for all the players.

    StummvonBordwehr
  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 963
    Morals are a sort of prison, @gorgonzola and you are your own prison guard.
    One of the appeals of RPGs is that you have the opportunity to construct a new prison for a different you and see how you like living in that. We are comparing prison designs in this thread.

    That does not mean that you have to follow what others say in this thread. But you might get a few interesting ideas.

    gorgonzolaArvia
  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 873
    edited May 21
    jmerry wrote: »
    Ammar wrote: »
    Also noting, it is a bit strange that a lawful character would wander around in the docks and randomly bring the Illithium to Cromwell at all, instead of directly returning home with it. After all, it is valuable and CHARNAME could get robbed.
    Depending on timing, there doesn't have to be anything random about it. If you show up at Cromwell's with the Mace of Disruption +1, he'll tell you that he could upgrade it with illithium. So then, if you've already picked up the mace, you know in-character what the illithium can be used for. I think there are other mentions of illithium being good for anti-undead weapons as well, so it's not hard to justify some in-character knowledge there.

    And, of course, Maheer in the promenade will refer you to Cromwell if you ask about special weapons. What adventurer wouldn't check out that lead?

    This is exactly why I am saying that the dialogue of the actual quest needs to be checked. I am 90% certain that unlike the other items Cromwell mentions the Mace upgrade only if you have BOTH items in your inventory. So "Cromwell could have told you before" does not work.

    Post edited by Ammar on
    lolien
  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 75
    edited May 21
    OK, I was wrong there. Cromwell doesn't say anything if all you have is the mace, and the mace's description gives no indication that it can be improved. Tested in game; I happened to have a run at the right place to check.

    AmmarMantis37ThacoBell
  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 873
    jmerry wrote: »
    OK, I was wrong there. Cromwell doesn't say anything if all you have is the mace, and the mace's description gives no indication that it can be improved. Tested in game; I happened to have a run at the right place to check.

    Thank you for checking. If you have other saves in the vicinity, the exact dialogues of the ore merchant and the priest when giving you the quest could also help settle some other discussion points here :smile:

    If you have the time of course - I would check myself, but I always delete everything between playthroughs, as I change my modding setup each time around.

    ThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 8,870
    This discussion is really making me want to roll a Paladin again. Its been so long.

    gorgonzola
  • karnor00karnor00 Member Posts: 676
    Thanks for posting the actual dialogue.

    It seems the player can avoid actually promising to get illithium for Sarles. All that really happens is that Sarles says he will only work with pure illithium.

    Personally I don’t see anything underhand about acquiring a substitute simply for the purpose of then asking Sarles if this substitute will suffice - as long as the player explains upfront that it is a substitute. Sarles is then free to accept or reject as he wants.

    ThacoBellStummvonBordwehrgorgonzola
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 8,870
    Looks like I confused "He's mad! Raving! Out of his mind!" with "she says its impossible."

  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 873
    Thank you for posting it.

    Here is what I think right now:

    First off, there is no reason for CHARNAME to suspect anything shady going on with the merchant asking for gold to divulge his contact. It seems like a standard transaction for giving up exclusive access to a valuable supplier with no hint that the trust of the Duergar is betrayed until CHARNAME has paid.

    Secondly, it is clear that a lawful good CHARNAME can end up giving Sarles the alloy instead of the pure ore, as he can do that with good intentions and without lying.

    Thirdly, at the same time it is also clear from talking with Sarles that there is a high risk that he won't work for the church. So a CHARNAME who is giving the task his very best would go further than just getting the alloy.

    So it depends a bit on your character. Both clerics and paladins tend to have respect for the Church hierarchy and should normally do their best to fulfill the request. At the same time one could forgive them for thinking that spending that much gold and effort on a fairly frivolous task is not the best use of their time and energy....

    gorgonzolaThacoBellkarnor00
  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 132
    Ammar wrote: »
    So it depends a bit on your character. Both clerics and paladins tend to have respect for the Church hierarchy and should normally do their best to fulfill the request. At the same time one could forgive them for thinking that spending that much gold and effort on a fairly frivolous task is not the best use of their time and energy....

    Yep, I think this is probably the best rationale a Good character could use for opting to give Sarles the alloy instead of the real illithium. The church is paying a hefty amount of gold to hire Sarles for this sculpture, but for what? The "glory" of the church? A Helmite would probably see this as a needless distraction from duty, while a Lathanderite might think of all the good they could do if they saved that money and spent it on charity or public works instead. (Of course, considering that the Church of Lathander also promotes the creation of art, it would depend on how the player decides to roleplay their cleric/paladin in terms of choosing which tenet of their faith to adhere to over the other.)

    StummvonBordwehrThacoBell
  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 474
    I've read the whole discussion now that followed after I decided to drop out. I think my conclusion is to pay very close attention to all the dialogue choices the next time that I play BG2.
    I've never been to Cromwell with the Mace of Disruption before doing the Sarles quest, so in-character I never knew about the use of illithium. As a paladin, I would visit the Temple District very early in the game, and therefore get those quests before I had a reason to check out the catacombs in the Graveyard District. And only the weight of the illithium would make me want to get rid of it as soon as possible, if I didn't know about the mace.
    As a paladin, I will most likely still support the church, but as I said, I will pay very close attention to the wording in the dialogue, especially where the ore merchant and her source are involved.

  • Gatekeep3rGatekeep3r Member Posts: 123
    Arvia wrote: »
    I've read the whole discussion now that followed after I decided to drop out. I think my conclusion is to pay very close attention to all the dialogue choices the next time that I play BG2.
    I've never been to Cromwell with the Mace of Disruption before doing the Sarles quest, so in-character I never knew about the use of illithium. As a paladin, I would visit the Temple District very early in the game, and therefore get those quests before I had a reason to check out the catacombs in the Graveyard District. And only the weight of the illithium would make me want to get rid of it as soon as possible, if I didn't know about the mace.
    As a paladin, I will most likely still support the church, but as I said, I will pay very close attention to the wording in the dialogue, especially where the ore merchant and her source are involved.

    It annoys me a bit. You can have a charname with 19 wisdom who studied in Candlekeep for years. Doesn't it make sense that someone like that would know about alternate uses for illithium (as a weapon against the undead)? Wouldn't certain tomes in Candlekeep contain information about that?

  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 873
    Charname was relatively young when he/she left Candlekeep & I would assume would not have been granted access to the more valuable tomes. Even if, there are lot of them, it is relatively specialized knowledge and maybe not even written down in any book.

    You are told by Cromwell and Dwarves are not known for putting their trade secrets into books for humans to read.

    Gatekeep3rArviaThacoBell
  • Gatekeep3rGatekeep3r Member Posts: 123
  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 474
    I'm roleplaying a paladin. While I'm sure that my character spent quite a lot of time in the library, I doubt that, until the age of 19, she understood and memorized the content of every single tome there, where highly specialized monks, scholars, clerics and mages come to study. She was being a kid and learning to fight, too.

    ThacoBell
  • Gatekeep3rGatekeep3r Member Posts: 123
    But when you're a paladin with very high wisdom (especially an UH), I would think you'd at least have heard of it.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 8,870
    Gatekeep3r wrote: »
    But when you're a paladin with very high wisdom (especially an UH), I would think you'd at least have heard of it.

    Wisdom is not the knowledge stat.

  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 437
    edited June 1
    Wisdom is partly the lore stat. There is an argument for it if your paladin has average+ intelligence especially if you consider that Illithium doesn't seem to exist outside of BG2 (I checked). You're on your own as far as that goes, whether your paladin is more a pragmatic fighter who knows his trade (like blacksmithing and weapon ores) or is a pompous noble-type who is more into courtly intrigue and just cares that his gear looks "shiny".
    As far as identifying Illithium, it could be something as simple as a description from one of your favorite childhood stories about "certain weapons that seem to never lose their (insert color here)-ish glimmer and burn white hot when striking the undead". Making that connection right there is more wisdom than intelligence. It's even appropriate in the sense that one of the main reasons you probably became a paladin in the first place was because of those stories. Also, note the reaction of the church - they KNOW about Illithium and that it's supposed to be more precious than gold, and these are priests and clerics. The ore is not so uncommon that their reaction is not straight up "WTF is Illithium?".

    At this point though our argument seems to be just going around in circles.

  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 474
    Maybe the paladin's wisdom score might also make him accept that he doesn't need to grab every valuable item for himself? And that even if he thinks it's a waste of money, it's not his place to work against the wishes of the church?

    The fact is that you don't need it to beat Bodhi and her guild. It's not necessary.
    It's a matter of personal roleplaying preferences if you get the upgrade for the mace or not.
    As far as running in circles, we can exchange opinions about our roleplaying preferences, but we can't convince others that our choices are better, wiser, more logical than theirs.

  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 437
    edited June 1
    It depends on your paladin. FR, after all, is a very different setting. Deities in FR are not held to be infallible, nevermind their churches. There's a reason many of the "chosen" are very different personality/temperament/background/etc-wise from what you would expect a deity's chosen would be like.
    In the end you just have do your thing, otherwise the deity would not have allowed you to become their champion in the first place. After all, they can always just take your power back. Unless of course your god is more lawful than anything else, then good luck with that.

    I mean that at this point we're just repeating our arguments. We were trying to convince each other that it was a personal preference thing, then we decided there was a bit more to it than that based on the dialog, then it turns out both the dialog and the lore were already pretty vague in the first place, so after a bit of why-the-hell-would-you-do-something-like-that back-and-forth arguing we're now back to square one.

    Arviakarnor00gorgonzola
  • karnor00karnor00 Member Posts: 676
    Typically when I do the quest, I get both the real and fake illithium. And then drop the real stuff on the floor just before talking to Sarles.

    I kid myself that I’m not doing anything dishonest, but the pile of real illithium at my feet is pretty damning!

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,520
    Arvia wrote: »
    Maybe the paladin's wisdom score might also make him accept that he doesn't need to grab every valuable item for himself?
    this is a RP decision, but imo is not forced by the alignment, more related to the spiritual evolution of the character.
    to be LG does not mean to be beyond the temptations of the world, only people with a high grade of spiritual evolution can consider the items as tools and not possessions, and even for them, as the use and not the possession is the important thing, there can be a reason why that item (or better the item upgraded with that precious metal) can be more useful then a statue in a temple.
    they have 2 obligations, one with the church, to find it for the statue, the other is a life time obligation, fight the evil, and for some LG the latter can prevail, not cause they are greedy, but cause the upgraded weapon is really useful.

    they are going to fight against very powerful undeads, so powerful that are creating big problems to the super powerful thief guild, it is not granted that charname's party can prevail without that item, for most of us it is so only thanks of the "reload power", thing that surely has not to be considered in a RP decision.
    if the mace is needed or not to beat bodhi depends on the difficulty setting and on the player skills, RP wise charname ignores her real power, but is sure that she is extremely powerful, only extremely powerful people and organizations can openly work against the ST.

    the reason to have the upgraded weapon can be both greediness or " fair use" of a tool that is really helpful.
    to decide which obligation prevail, the one with the priests or the one to fight the evil, is subjective, not objective.
    those are both RP decisions, but is the way the LG charname is role played, not the alignment in itself, that set the result.


  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,520
    Arvia wrote: »
    As far as running in circles, we can exchange opinions about our roleplaying preferences, but we can't convince others that our choices are better, wiser, more logical than theirs.
    very true, but the point is not to convince others to adhere to our opinion and so play in a less satisfactory way, is a brain storming where every one explains his point of view, my horizon has been enlarged by this thread, both because i see valid points in the opinions of the other players and because to explain our opinions often help ourselves to understand them better.

    ThacoBell
Sign In or Register to comment.