Also noting, it is a bit strange that a lawful character would wander around in the docks and randomly bring the Illithium to Cromwell at all, instead of directly returning home with it. After all, it is valuable and CHARNAME could get robbed.
Depending on timing, there doesn't have to be anything random about it. If you show up at Cromwell's with the Mace of Disruption +1, he'll tell you that he could upgrade it with illithium. So then, if you've already picked up the mace, you know in-character what the illithium can be used for. I think there are other mentions of illithium being good for anti-undead weapons as well, so it's not hard to justify some in-character knowledge there.
And, of course, Maheer in the promenade will refer you to Cromwell if you ask about special weapons. What adventurer wouldn't check out that lead?
i think that the situation in the game is completely different from the rl situations in which someone get payed to find a seller or the right person that can do something as in the game is a seller itself that gives the information, in rl every time a seller could not give me something he did address me to some other seller for free, the people that usually ask money to give such information trade knowledge, not goods.
that told the ore merchant is free to do what she wants, and to buy the information from her is not something that a LG should not do, even if the durgar is not happy i would not call it a birbe.
anyway i play LG only if the charname class compel me to do it, and i always give to the artist the fake illithium, i have much more problems in rp the part where i side with the shadow thieves and other parts of the game that have to be done to beat it, but as a LG pally i probably would not have done.
with any other good alignment i have even less problems in using the metal for something that actually can be used for goodness, also a statue in a temple is useful for goodness, but it does not depend in any way by the material it is crafted with.
i like the rp aspect of those games, but when it becomes something like it is in this thread i completely loose any interest in it, as it looks to me more a prison then a way to give more flavor to the game.
and this is only my personal opinion on the matter of crafting the mace or an illithium statue, surely it has not to be the truth for all the players.
Morals are a sort of prison, @gorgonzola and you are your own prison guard.
One of the appeals of RPGs is that you have the opportunity to construct a new prison for a different you and see how you like living in that. We are comparing prison designs in this thread.
That does not mean that you have to follow what others say in this thread. But you might get a few interesting ideas.
Also noting, it is a bit strange that a lawful character would wander around in the docks and randomly bring the Illithium to Cromwell at all, instead of directly returning home with it. After all, it is valuable and CHARNAME could get robbed.
Depending on timing, there doesn't have to be anything random about it. If you show up at Cromwell's with the Mace of Disruption +1, he'll tell you that he could upgrade it with illithium. So then, if you've already picked up the mace, you know in-character what the illithium can be used for. I think there are other mentions of illithium being good for anti-undead weapons as well, so it's not hard to justify some in-character knowledge there.
And, of course, Maheer in the promenade will refer you to Cromwell if you ask about special weapons. What adventurer wouldn't check out that lead?
This is exactly why I am saying that the dialogue of the actual quest needs to be checked. I am 90% certain that unlike the other items Cromwell mentions the Mace upgrade only if you have BOTH items in your inventory. So "Cromwell could have told you before" does not work.
OK, I was wrong there. Cromwell doesn't say anything if all you have is the mace, and the mace's description gives no indication that it can be improved. Tested in game; I happened to have a run at the right place to check.
OK, I was wrong there. Cromwell doesn't say anything if all you have is the mace, and the mace's description gives no indication that it can be improved. Tested in game; I happened to have a run at the right place to check.
Thank you for checking. If you have other saves in the vicinity, the exact dialogues of the ore merchant and the priest when giving you the quest could also help settle some other discussion points here
If you have the time of course - I would check myself, but I always delete everything between playthroughs, as I change my modding setup each time around.
Back to the beginning of chapter save... here's the dialogue trees (Helm version):
Guardian Telwyn:
Guardian Telwyn: It is a complicated matter, so I trust you will bear with me in the telling.
It is my responsibility to furnish this temple with the artifacts that speak of Helm's glory. Objects that please the eye draw the mind into the glory of Helm.
Protagonist (1): And what would you have me do?
(2): This place reflects the pride you take in your position.
(Both) Guardian Telwyn: Athkatla is lucky to have an exceptional artist visiting, second only to that poor Prism of Nashkel. What a loss his death was to us.
I speak of Sir Sarles, who is making a brief stop before leaving for Calimshan. We wish to use this great opportunity to commission a work from him.
But nothing is ever easy. Aside from his enormous commission fee, he claims he will work in nothing short of pure illithium--a metal more valued than gold!
Protagonist (1): That is problematic. What can I do?
(2): Can nothing be done to sway his mind?
(Both) Guardian Telwyn: This is where you come in. I would ask that you convince Sir Sarles to honor Helm. Other churches court him as well, though they have no more illithium than we.
You will have to secure enough illithium to keep him happy and convince him to accept an affordable commission. Discuss this with Sarles, he may be reasonable.
Do as you must. Be stern in your negotiations. None should exceed Helm in this. Try to avoid hurting anyone, but answer threats in kind. Sarles is worth it.
Protagonist (1): Will I be reimbursed if I must spend my own gold on him?
(1) Guardian Telwyn: You will be paid as best the coffers of Helm will allow. If you do not come out ahead, count it toward your service to Helm--a donation in another form.
Protagonist (2): What if another temple has secured him first?
(2 or 31 or 32) Guardian Telwyn: I am certain he will choose Helm no matter what deal he has already struck. None are more worthy. Pay what you must to encourage him, and you will be compensated.
Protagonist (3): This is a mere errand quest. It is beneath me.
(3) Beneath you? How is the bidding of Helm beneath you? You are free to refuse if you wish, though the slight will not be forgotten.
(3) Protagonist (31): I promise nothing, but I will try.
(32) My apologies. I will serve as best I can.
(All) Guardian Telwyn: Delay will allow other temples to outshine us. Go to Sarles at the Jysstev estate in the southeast section of the Government District.
Conduct yourself with discipline; you are the eyes of Helm in this enterprise.
Sir Sarles:
Protagonist: I apologize, but I have come to request your talent on a commissioned artwork.
Sir Sarles: Oh, yes, yes, yes. One of those bloody churches sent you, didn't they? Most be, because everyone else understands the word "no". Which one are you from?
Protagonist (1): Helm has sent me forth. His ever-seeing eyes wish to gaze upon your work.
(2): Come now, is your muse that picky? I offer a commission, is that not enough?
(1) Sir Sarles: And your offer is the same as the others. Gold and the satisfaction of serving the one true whatever.
(1) Protagonist (1): But think of the prestige you will earn.
(11) Sir Sarles: I have prestige now. I am the darling of every noble in town, and damned if I need any more than that. Neither do I need the payment. I am well provided for.
(1) Protagonist (2) Yes, you will be gaining the favor of a powerful faith.
(12) Sir Sarles: I have the favor of every mincing noble in the city now. What do I need the backing of a church for? Such institutions demand much of a person.
(1) Protagonist (3) Yes, think of the gold. We will offer more if it is not enough.
(13) Sir Sarles: I have not paid for a single luxury of my own in years now. I am bounced from noble to noble as a status symbol, and I want for nothing.
(2) Sir Sarles: No, what I need has not changed, and I have said so to your masters. The gold offered is sufficient, and I am just fine without the flattery.
(All) Sir Sarles: What I really need is to work in the medium of my choice: pure illithium. Anything less is an insult to my skills. That is all I require.
Protagonist (1) But I am told such a material is very costly and rare. Is there no alternative?
(1) Sir Sarles: You are told? Have you not checked? Gathering the materials is not the job of a fine artist such as myself. Go speak with an ore merchant or some such.
Protagonist (2): Then I will find what you need. Perhaps I can get some from an ore merchant.
Protagonist (3): I know of no source for such a material. I'll wager the other churches don't either.
Sir Sarles (3): This is not my problem. I am enjoying my holiday. It is you people that are having difficulties. Find an ore merchant or some such.
(All) Sir Sarles: I recall the name of one that was referred to me on my last visit. Jerlia was her name, I believe. Speak with her. She has exotics occasionally. Try the promenade.
Now go! I will work for whatever church acquires the necessary materials! If not yours, then another! 200 pounds of illithium or I go back to enjoying my holiday!
Jerlia - this is a much longer and more complicated one with possible loops, so I'll use letters to label it. I had Anomen in my party, and he interjected at one point noted below; other interjections may exist.
Jerlia: You interested in a bulk purchase of ore? I've got fine prices for masonry as well, and crafters that can build you everything from arches to overhangs.
Protagonist (1): I have need of illithium for Sir Sarles. How much would 200 pounds be worth? (B)
Protagonist (2): Nothing, sorry I bothered you. (End)
Protagonist (3): I'm looking for a rare metal suitable for sculpture. (A)
(A) Jerlia: Ain't but one sculptor that even bears mentioning in this town right now You fishing to hire Sir Sarles? Overrated, he is. I suppose he wants illithium again too. How much this time?
(A) Protagonist (1): 200 pounds. Is that going to be expensive? (A)
(A) Protagonist (2): I'm sure you have it in stock. He needs 200 pounds. (A)
(B) Jerlia: 200 pounds! He's mad! Raving! Out of his mind!
(B) Protagonist (1): So does this mean you don't have it in stock? (C)
(B) Protagonist (2): I'm sure your theatrics make it all worthwhile. What will the price be then? (C)
(C) Jerlia: You don't know what's involved in getting illithium. I've an agreement with a rather special source, but there's only so much I'm allowed to take. 50 pounds a season at most.
(C) Protagonist (1): 50 pounds a season? I don't have that kind of time. (D)
(C) Protagonist (2): So this is a fruitless enterprise then? He has sent me on a merry little chase. (D)
(D) Jerlia: Hold on. It's difficult, but it's not impossible. There are two options to you. You can go to my source and try to ply the extra out of him, or you can use a... substitute.
(D) Protagonist (1): Where is your source? I'm sure he will see reason. (E)
(D) Protagonist (2): You mean a cheaper metal as a replacement? Won't Sarles know? (J)
(E) Jerlia: He may at that, but I will require compensation for revealing him to you. If word got out who and where my source was, I would be out of business. Make it worth my while.
(E) Protagonist (1): It's your career, so how does 500 gold sound? (E1)
(E) Protagonist (2): If this could ruin you, I should offer no less than 1,000 gold. (G)
(E) Protagonist (3): The everseeing eye of Helm would look on you favorably if you help. (E3)
(E) Protagonist (4): I cannot afford to pay you for this information. (E4)
(E1) Jerlia: It sounds like the end of me for a mere pittance. No, that is not enough. (F)
(E3) Sorry, but I follow Waukeen and the ways of the Merchants' Friend. She has been quiet of late, but I still feel her wisdom telling me that this would be a bad deal. (F)
(E4) Jerlia: I'm sorry, but I cannot give this information out without compensation. (F)
(F) Jerlia: So, shall we discuss proper payment, or would you like to hear the substitute offer again?
(F) Protagonist (1): Very well. I will offer 1,000 gold to compensate you. (G)
(F) Protagonist (2): Tell me of the substitute. (J)
(G) Jerlia: His name is Unger Hilldark. He stays in the Copper Coronet when he's in town. Don't get him mad, will you? He's at enough of a risk just coming here. He's... he's a duergar.
(G) Protagonist (1): Duergar? Where does a dwarf of such evil nature find sanctuary in Amn? (H)
(G) Protagonist (2): I don't deal with the likes of duergar. What was that about a substitute? Wouldn't Sir Sarles know the difference? (J)
(H) Jerlia: At the Copper Coronet, of course. It hides worse than him within. Besides, they have to eat too, you know. Nothing wrong with a mutually beneficial trading agreement.
He's in disguise. His kind doesn't look all that different, and as long as he's left alone, he's fine. Not a bad guy, once you get to know him.
You go talk to him. Tell him I sent you. Maybe he'll let you pull a little more illithium out of him than I can get. It won't be cheap though.
(H) Protagonist (1): Thanks. I'll do that. (H1)
(H) Protagonist (2): Perhaps I should try to get that substitute you mentioned as well. (I)
(H1) Jerlia: Good luck. You'll need it. Of course, you knew I would say that. (End)
(I) Jerlia: For all his pomp and balderdash, Sir Sarles wouldn't know quality materials if you beat him over the head with them. Now that's a fine image, eh?
Anomen: It is dishonest, but no less than the cretin deserves for the demands he places on the church. Sir Sarles could use his pride pricked, I say.
Jerlia: Enough of that. Anyway, I would wager that a derivative of illithium would serve just as well. Pure illithium is quite rare, but an alloy could be fashioned at a reasonable rate.
(I) Protagonist (1): Perhaps I should just talk to your source about the real thing. (E or G)
(I) Protagonist (1): Sounds like a good idea. Can you fashion this alloy? (J)
(J) Jerlia: I will require some measure of coin for the service. Tell you what I'll do. I'll get 200 pounds of the alloy together, and you can pick it up tomorrow.
You just be sure to have 200 gold ready. You'll agree that the price is very reasonable. Alloy requires very little illithium, so it is quite inexpensive.
(J) Protagonist (1): 200 gold? I thought this was the cheap solution. (J1)
(J) Protagonist (2): Very well. I will return tomorrow. (J2)
(J1) Jerlia: It is, at least compared to the price of my telling you my source and then you doing whatever he required. Take it or leave it; I'll be here tomorrow with the goods. (End)
(J2) Jerlia: I will be here in a day. (End)
It seems the player can avoid actually promising to get illithium for Sarles. All that really happens is that Sarles says he will only work with pure illithium.
Personally I don’t see anything underhand about acquiring a substitute simply for the purpose of then asking Sarles if this substitute will suffice - as long as the player explains upfront that it is a substitute. Sarles is then free to accept or reject as he wants.
First off, there is no reason for CHARNAME to suspect anything shady going on with the merchant asking for gold to divulge his contact. It seems like a standard transaction for giving up exclusive access to a valuable supplier with no hint that the trust of the Duergar is betrayed until CHARNAME has paid.
Secondly, it is clear that a lawful good CHARNAME can end up giving Sarles the alloy instead of the pure ore, as he can do that with good intentions and without lying.
Thirdly, at the same time it is also clear from talking with Sarles that there is a high risk that he won't work for the church. So a CHARNAME who is giving the task his very best would go further than just getting the alloy.
So it depends a bit on your character. Both clerics and paladins tend to have respect for the Church hierarchy and should normally do their best to fulfill the request. At the same time one could forgive them for thinking that spending that much gold and effort on a fairly frivolous task is not the best use of their time and energy....
So it depends a bit on your character. Both clerics and paladins tend to have respect for the Church hierarchy and should normally do their best to fulfill the request. At the same time one could forgive them for thinking that spending that much gold and effort on a fairly frivolous task is not the best use of their time and energy....
Yep, I think this is probably the best rationale a Good character could use for opting to give Sarles the alloy instead of the real illithium. The church is paying a hefty amount of gold to hire Sarles for this sculpture, but for what? The "glory" of the church? A Helmite would probably see this as a needless distraction from duty, while a Lathanderite might think of all the good they could do if they saved that money and spent it on charity or public works instead. (Of course, considering that the Church of Lathander also promotes the creation of art, it would depend on how the player decides to roleplay their cleric/paladin in terms of choosing which tenet of their faith to adhere to over the other.)
I've read the whole discussion now that followed after I decided to drop out. I think my conclusion is to pay very close attention to all the dialogue choices the next time that I play BG2.
I've never been to Cromwell with the Mace of Disruption before doing the Sarles quest, so in-character I never knew about the use of illithium. As a paladin, I would visit the Temple District very early in the game, and therefore get those quests before I had a reason to check out the catacombs in the Graveyard District. And only the weight of the illithium would make me want to get rid of it as soon as possible, if I didn't know about the mace.
As a paladin, I will most likely still support the church, but as I said, I will pay very close attention to the wording in the dialogue, especially where the ore merchant and her source are involved.
I've read the whole discussion now that followed after I decided to drop out. I think my conclusion is to pay very close attention to all the dialogue choices the next time that I play BG2.
I've never been to Cromwell with the Mace of Disruption before doing the Sarles quest, so in-character I never knew about the use of illithium. As a paladin, I would visit the Temple District very early in the game, and therefore get those quests before I had a reason to check out the catacombs in the Graveyard District. And only the weight of the illithium would make me want to get rid of it as soon as possible, if I didn't know about the mace.
As a paladin, I will most likely still support the church, but as I said, I will pay very close attention to the wording in the dialogue, especially where the ore merchant and her source are involved.
It annoys me a bit. You can have a charname with 19 wisdom who studied in Candlekeep for years. Doesn't it make sense that someone like that would know about alternate uses for illithium (as a weapon against the undead)? Wouldn't certain tomes in Candlekeep contain information about that?
Charname was relatively young when he/she left Candlekeep & I would assume would not have been granted access to the more valuable tomes. Even if, there are lot of them, it is relatively specialized knowledge and maybe not even written down in any book.
You are told by Cromwell and Dwarves are not known for putting their trade secrets into books for humans to read.
I'm roleplaying a paladin. While I'm sure that my character spent quite a lot of time in the library, I doubt that, until the age of 19, she understood and memorized the content of every single tome there, where highly specialized monks, scholars, clerics and mages come to study. She was being a kid and learning to fight, too.
Wisdom is partly the lore stat. There is an argument for it if your paladin has average+ intelligence especially if you consider that Illithium doesn't seem to exist outside of BG2 (I checked). You're on your own as far as that goes, whether your paladin is more a pragmatic fighter who knows his trade (like blacksmithing and weapon ores) or is a pompous noble-type who is more into courtly intrigue and just cares that his gear looks "shiny".
As far as identifying Illithium, it could be something as simple as a description from one of your favorite childhood stories about "certain weapons that seem to never lose their (insert color here)-ish glimmer and burn white hot when striking the undead". Making that connection right there is more wisdom than intelligence. It's even appropriate in the sense that one of the main reasons you probably became a paladin in the first place was because of those stories. Also, note the reaction of the church - they KNOW about Illithium and that it's supposed to be more precious than gold, and these are priests and clerics. The ore is not so uncommon that their reaction is not straight up "WTF is Illithium?".
At this point though our argument seems to be just going around in circles.
Maybe the paladin's wisdom score might also make him accept that he doesn't need to grab every valuable item for himself? And that even if he thinks it's a waste of money, it's not his place to work against the wishes of the church?
The fact is that you don't need it to beat Bodhi and her guild. It's not necessary.
It's a matter of personal roleplaying preferences if you get the upgrade for the mace or not.
As far as running in circles, we can exchange opinions about our roleplaying preferences, but we can't convince others that our choices are better, wiser, more logical than theirs.
It depends on your paladin. FR, after all, is a very different setting. Deities in FR are not held to be infallible, nevermind their churches. There's a reason many of the "chosen" are very different personality/temperament/background/etc-wise from what you would expect a deity's chosen would be like.
In the end you just have do your thing, otherwise the deity would not have allowed you to become their champion in the first place. After all, they can always just take your power back. Unless of course your god is more lawful than anything else, then good luck with that.
I mean that at this point we're just repeating our arguments. We were trying to convince each other that it was a personal preference thing, then we decided there was a bit more to it than that based on the dialog, then it turns out both the dialog and the lore were already pretty vague in the first place, so after a bit of why-the-hell-would-you-do-something-like-that back-and-forth arguing we're now back to square one.
Maybe the paladin's wisdom score might also make him accept that he doesn't need to grab every valuable item for himself?
this is a RP decision, but imo is not forced by the alignment, more related to the spiritual evolution of the character.
to be LG does not mean to be beyond the temptations of the world, only people with a high grade of spiritual evolution can consider the items as tools and not possessions, and even for them, as the use and not the possession is the important thing, there can be a reason why that item (or better the item upgraded with that precious metal) can be more useful then a statue in a temple.
they have 2 obligations, one with the church, to find it for the statue, the other is a life time obligation, fight the evil, and for some LG the latter can prevail, not cause they are greedy, but cause the upgraded weapon is really useful.
they are going to fight against very powerful undeads, so powerful that are creating big problems to the super powerful thief guild, it is not granted that charname's party can prevail without that item, for most of us it is so only thanks of the "reload power", thing that surely has not to be considered in a RP decision.
if the mace is needed or not to beat bodhi depends on the difficulty setting and on the player skills, RP wise charname ignores her real power, but is sure that she is extremely powerful, only extremely powerful people and organizations can openly work against the ST.
the reason to have the upgraded weapon can be both greediness or " fair use" of a tool that is really helpful.
to decide which obligation prevail, the one with the priests or the one to fight the evil, is subjective, not objective.
those are both RP decisions, but is the way the LG charname is role played, not the alignment in itself, that set the result.
As far as running in circles, we can exchange opinions about our roleplaying preferences, but we can't convince others that our choices are better, wiser, more logical than theirs.
very true, but the point is not to convince others to adhere to our opinion and so play in a less satisfactory way, is a brain storming where every one explains his point of view, my horizon has been enlarged by this thread, both because i see valid points in the opinions of the other players and because to explain our opinions often help ourselves to understand them better.
This quest illustrates the role of art as a barometer of human behaviour in the changing moral climate of an imperfect world.
sir sarles is not the artist. the man is clearly a no-talent hack - easily proven because true genius is never appreciated in its own time
the art is in the interaction of the secular, the divine and the profane. The creative tension between these three forces is the medium in which true art can exist.
I think the crux of the problem here is the meta-ethical stance. They are usual grouped in three categories:
- Consequentialism -with its main representative, utilitarianism- considers that the morality of an action can be judged by its consequences. In our case, the action of keeping the real illithium can be considered good if it results in a higher benefit.
- Deontology on the other hand - with its main representative being Kantian (or neo-Kantian) ethics- posits that the morality of an action should be judged by the intention of the moral agent. If you have knowledge of that it is possible to obtain the pure illithium yet keep it for yourself, you are engaging in deception. As Kant would put it, you are treating others as means for yourself (your goals) rather than ends in themselves; therefore, your action fails the universalization test and is immoral.
- Virtue ethics - mainly represented by Aristotelian ethics and also having seen theoretical resurgence lately- is the position that there are virtues that one should strive to embody. It is quite hard to come up with a classification of virtues -and their counterparts, vices- that are ordered in a way that lets you determine with certainty the morality of an action. It is also the one I am least familiar with so I can hardly give an informed opinion regarding our matter using this position.
There are a few hybrid positions but the more you try to achieve synthesis, the harder it becomes for an action to be moral -or good.
For over a decade, I didn't even know you could upgrade the Mace of Disruption with illithium, so I never did it. Whenever I acquired the illithium, I simply immediately took it to Sarles as I would any other "quest item." And whenever I acquired the Mace of Disruption, I usually set sail for Spellhold right after finishing the vampire quest. There was no indication that the two items could be combined.
The problem with a lot of these moral dilemmas like this, in this type of setting, is that the game doesn't give you any prior indication that the illithium could be used for something more than just turning in the quest; if you pick up the quest as early as Chapter 2. If you're trying to actually play with your character's mentality and point of view and not taking any sort of 'meta gaming' into account - there isn't really anything in-game that would tell you to hold on to the illithium. That's a lot of the problem with these 'extra' items you can obtain in the game - without meta-gaming you wouldn't have any reason to find/stumble upon most of them.
Comments
And, of course, Maheer in the promenade will refer you to Cromwell if you ask about special weapons. What adventurer wouldn't check out that lead?
that told the ore merchant is free to do what she wants, and to buy the information from her is not something that a LG should not do, even if the durgar is not happy i would not call it a birbe.
anyway i play LG only if the charname class compel me to do it, and i always give to the artist the fake illithium, i have much more problems in rp the part where i side with the shadow thieves and other parts of the game that have to be done to beat it, but as a LG pally i probably would not have done.
with any other good alignment i have even less problems in using the metal for something that actually can be used for goodness, also a statue in a temple is useful for goodness, but it does not depend in any way by the material it is crafted with.
i like the rp aspect of those games, but when it becomes something like it is in this thread i completely loose any interest in it, as it looks to me more a prison then a way to give more flavor to the game.
and this is only my personal opinion on the matter of crafting the mace or an illithium statue, surely it has not to be the truth for all the players.
One of the appeals of RPGs is that you have the opportunity to construct a new prison for a different you and see how you like living in that. We are comparing prison designs in this thread.
That does not mean that you have to follow what others say in this thread. But you might get a few interesting ideas.
This is exactly why I am saying that the dialogue of the actual quest needs to be checked. I am 90% certain that unlike the other items Cromwell mentions the Mace upgrade only if you have BOTH items in your inventory. So "Cromwell could have told you before" does not work.
Thank you for checking. If you have other saves in the vicinity, the exact dialogues of the ore merchant and the priest when giving you the quest could also help settle some other discussion points here
If you have the time of course - I would check myself, but I always delete everything between playthroughs, as I change my modding setup each time around.
Guardian Telwyn:
It is my responsibility to furnish this temple with the artifacts that speak of Helm's glory. Objects that please the eye draw the mind into the glory of Helm.
Protagonist (1): And what would you have me do?
(2): This place reflects the pride you take in your position.
(Both) Guardian Telwyn: Athkatla is lucky to have an exceptional artist visiting, second only to that poor Prism of Nashkel. What a loss his death was to us.
I speak of Sir Sarles, who is making a brief stop before leaving for Calimshan. We wish to use this great opportunity to commission a work from him.
But nothing is ever easy. Aside from his enormous commission fee, he claims he will work in nothing short of pure illithium--a metal more valued than gold!
Protagonist (1): That is problematic. What can I do?
(2): Can nothing be done to sway his mind?
(Both) Guardian Telwyn: This is where you come in. I would ask that you convince Sir Sarles to honor Helm. Other churches court him as well, though they have no more illithium than we.
You will have to secure enough illithium to keep him happy and convince him to accept an affordable commission. Discuss this with Sarles, he may be reasonable.
Do as you must. Be stern in your negotiations. None should exceed Helm in this. Try to avoid hurting anyone, but answer threats in kind. Sarles is worth it.
Protagonist (1): Will I be reimbursed if I must spend my own gold on him?
(1) Guardian Telwyn: You will be paid as best the coffers of Helm will allow. If you do not come out ahead, count it toward your service to Helm--a donation in another form.
Protagonist (2): What if another temple has secured him first?
(2 or 31 or 32) Guardian Telwyn: I am certain he will choose Helm no matter what deal he has already struck. None are more worthy. Pay what you must to encourage him, and you will be compensated.
Protagonist (3): This is a mere errand quest. It is beneath me.
(3) Beneath you? How is the bidding of Helm beneath you? You are free to refuse if you wish, though the slight will not be forgotten.
(3) Protagonist (31): I promise nothing, but I will try.
(32) My apologies. I will serve as best I can.
(All) Guardian Telwyn: Delay will allow other temples to outshine us. Go to Sarles at the Jysstev estate in the southeast section of the Government District.
Conduct yourself with discipline; you are the eyes of Helm in this enterprise.
Sir Sarles:
Sir Sarles: Oh, yes, yes, yes. One of those bloody churches sent you, didn't they? Most be, because everyone else understands the word "no". Which one are you from?
Protagonist (1): Helm has sent me forth. His ever-seeing eyes wish to gaze upon your work.
(2): Come now, is your muse that picky? I offer a commission, is that not enough?
(1) Sir Sarles: And your offer is the same as the others. Gold and the satisfaction of serving the one true whatever.
(1) Protagonist (1): But think of the prestige you will earn.
(11) Sir Sarles: I have prestige now. I am the darling of every noble in town, and damned if I need any more than that. Neither do I need the payment. I am well provided for.
(1) Protagonist (2) Yes, you will be gaining the favor of a powerful faith.
(12) Sir Sarles: I have the favor of every mincing noble in the city now. What do I need the backing of a church for? Such institutions demand much of a person.
(1) Protagonist (3) Yes, think of the gold. We will offer more if it is not enough.
(13) Sir Sarles: I have not paid for a single luxury of my own in years now. I am bounced from noble to noble as a status symbol, and I want for nothing.
(2) Sir Sarles: No, what I need has not changed, and I have said so to your masters. The gold offered is sufficient, and I am just fine without the flattery.
(All) Sir Sarles: What I really need is to work in the medium of my choice: pure illithium. Anything less is an insult to my skills. That is all I require.
Protagonist (1) But I am told such a material is very costly and rare. Is there no alternative?
(1) Sir Sarles: You are told? Have you not checked? Gathering the materials is not the job of a fine artist such as myself. Go speak with an ore merchant or some such.
Protagonist (2): Then I will find what you need. Perhaps I can get some from an ore merchant.
Protagonist (3): I know of no source for such a material. I'll wager the other churches don't either.
Sir Sarles (3): This is not my problem. I am enjoying my holiday. It is you people that are having difficulties. Find an ore merchant or some such.
(All) Sir Sarles: I recall the name of one that was referred to me on my last visit. Jerlia was her name, I believe. Speak with her. She has exotics occasionally. Try the promenade.
Now go! I will work for whatever church acquires the necessary materials! If not yours, then another! 200 pounds of illithium or I go back to enjoying my holiday!
Jerlia - this is a much longer and more complicated one with possible loops, so I'll use letters to label it. I had Anomen in my party, and he interjected at one point noted below; other interjections may exist.
Protagonist (1): I have need of illithium for Sir Sarles. How much would 200 pounds be worth? (B)
Protagonist (2): Nothing, sorry I bothered you. (End)
Protagonist (3): I'm looking for a rare metal suitable for sculpture. (A)
(A) Jerlia: Ain't but one sculptor that even bears mentioning in this town right now You fishing to hire Sir Sarles? Overrated, he is. I suppose he wants illithium again too. How much this time?
(A) Protagonist (1): 200 pounds. Is that going to be expensive? (A)
(A) Protagonist (2): I'm sure you have it in stock. He needs 200 pounds. (A)
(B) Jerlia: 200 pounds! He's mad! Raving! Out of his mind!
(B) Protagonist (1): So does this mean you don't have it in stock? (C)
(B) Protagonist (2): I'm sure your theatrics make it all worthwhile. What will the price be then? (C)
(C) Jerlia: You don't know what's involved in getting illithium. I've an agreement with a rather special source, but there's only so much I'm allowed to take. 50 pounds a season at most.
(C) Protagonist (1): 50 pounds a season? I don't have that kind of time. (D)
(C) Protagonist (2): So this is a fruitless enterprise then? He has sent me on a merry little chase. (D)
(D) Jerlia: Hold on. It's difficult, but it's not impossible. There are two options to you. You can go to my source and try to ply the extra out of him, or you can use a... substitute.
(D) Protagonist (1): Where is your source? I'm sure he will see reason. (E)
(D) Protagonist (2): You mean a cheaper metal as a replacement? Won't Sarles know? (J)
(E) Jerlia: He may at that, but I will require compensation for revealing him to you. If word got out who and where my source was, I would be out of business. Make it worth my while.
(E) Protagonist (1): It's your career, so how does 500 gold sound? (E1)
(E) Protagonist (2): If this could ruin you, I should offer no less than 1,000 gold. (G)
(E) Protagonist (3): The everseeing eye of Helm would look on you favorably if you help. (E3)
(E) Protagonist (4): I cannot afford to pay you for this information. (E4)
(E1) Jerlia: It sounds like the end of me for a mere pittance. No, that is not enough. (F)
(E3) Sorry, but I follow Waukeen and the ways of the Merchants' Friend. She has been quiet of late, but I still feel her wisdom telling me that this would be a bad deal. (F)
(E4) Jerlia: I'm sorry, but I cannot give this information out without compensation. (F)
(F) Jerlia: So, shall we discuss proper payment, or would you like to hear the substitute offer again?
(F) Protagonist (1): Very well. I will offer 1,000 gold to compensate you. (G)
(F) Protagonist (2): Tell me of the substitute. (J)
(G) Jerlia: His name is Unger Hilldark. He stays in the Copper Coronet when he's in town. Don't get him mad, will you? He's at enough of a risk just coming here. He's... he's a duergar.
(G) Protagonist (1): Duergar? Where does a dwarf of such evil nature find sanctuary in Amn? (H)
(G) Protagonist (2): I don't deal with the likes of duergar. What was that about a substitute? Wouldn't Sir Sarles know the difference? (J)
(H) Jerlia: At the Copper Coronet, of course. It hides worse than him within. Besides, they have to eat too, you know. Nothing wrong with a mutually beneficial trading agreement.
He's in disguise. His kind doesn't look all that different, and as long as he's left alone, he's fine. Not a bad guy, once you get to know him.
You go talk to him. Tell him I sent you. Maybe he'll let you pull a little more illithium out of him than I can get. It won't be cheap though.
(H) Protagonist (1): Thanks. I'll do that. (H1)
(H) Protagonist (2): Perhaps I should try to get that substitute you mentioned as well. (I)
(H1) Jerlia: Good luck. You'll need it. Of course, you knew I would say that. (End)
(I) Jerlia: For all his pomp and balderdash, Sir Sarles wouldn't know quality materials if you beat him over the head with them. Now that's a fine image, eh?
Anomen: It is dishonest, but no less than the cretin deserves for the demands he places on the church. Sir Sarles could use his pride pricked, I say.
Jerlia: Enough of that. Anyway, I would wager that a derivative of illithium would serve just as well. Pure illithium is quite rare, but an alloy could be fashioned at a reasonable rate.
(I) Protagonist (1): Perhaps I should just talk to your source about the real thing. (E or G)
(I) Protagonist (1): Sounds like a good idea. Can you fashion this alloy? (J)
(J) Jerlia: I will require some measure of coin for the service. Tell you what I'll do. I'll get 200 pounds of the alloy together, and you can pick it up tomorrow.
You just be sure to have 200 gold ready. You'll agree that the price is very reasonable. Alloy requires very little illithium, so it is quite inexpensive.
(J) Protagonist (1): 200 gold? I thought this was the cheap solution. (J1)
(J) Protagonist (2): Very well. I will return tomorrow. (J2)
(J1) Jerlia: It is, at least compared to the price of my telling you my source and then you doing whatever he required. Take it or leave it; I'll be here tomorrow with the goods. (End)
(J2) Jerlia: I will be here in a day. (End)
It seems the player can avoid actually promising to get illithium for Sarles. All that really happens is that Sarles says he will only work with pure illithium.
Personally I don’t see anything underhand about acquiring a substitute simply for the purpose of then asking Sarles if this substitute will suffice - as long as the player explains upfront that it is a substitute. Sarles is then free to accept or reject as he wants.
Here is what I think right now:
First off, there is no reason for CHARNAME to suspect anything shady going on with the merchant asking for gold to divulge his contact. It seems like a standard transaction for giving up exclusive access to a valuable supplier with no hint that the trust of the Duergar is betrayed until CHARNAME has paid.
Secondly, it is clear that a lawful good CHARNAME can end up giving Sarles the alloy instead of the pure ore, as he can do that with good intentions and without lying.
Thirdly, at the same time it is also clear from talking with Sarles that there is a high risk that he won't work for the church. So a CHARNAME who is giving the task his very best would go further than just getting the alloy.
So it depends a bit on your character. Both clerics and paladins tend to have respect for the Church hierarchy and should normally do their best to fulfill the request. At the same time one could forgive them for thinking that spending that much gold and effort on a fairly frivolous task is not the best use of their time and energy....
Yep, I think this is probably the best rationale a Good character could use for opting to give Sarles the alloy instead of the real illithium. The church is paying a hefty amount of gold to hire Sarles for this sculpture, but for what? The "glory" of the church? A Helmite would probably see this as a needless distraction from duty, while a Lathanderite might think of all the good they could do if they saved that money and spent it on charity or public works instead. (Of course, considering that the Church of Lathander also promotes the creation of art, it would depend on how the player decides to roleplay their cleric/paladin in terms of choosing which tenet of their faith to adhere to over the other.)
I've never been to Cromwell with the Mace of Disruption before doing the Sarles quest, so in-character I never knew about the use of illithium. As a paladin, I would visit the Temple District very early in the game, and therefore get those quests before I had a reason to check out the catacombs in the Graveyard District. And only the weight of the illithium would make me want to get rid of it as soon as possible, if I didn't know about the mace.
As a paladin, I will most likely still support the church, but as I said, I will pay very close attention to the wording in the dialogue, especially where the ore merchant and her source are involved.
It annoys me a bit. You can have a charname with 19 wisdom who studied in Candlekeep for years. Doesn't it make sense that someone like that would know about alternate uses for illithium (as a weapon against the undead)? Wouldn't certain tomes in Candlekeep contain information about that?
You are told by Cromwell and Dwarves are not known for putting their trade secrets into books for humans to read.
Wisdom is not the knowledge stat.
As far as identifying Illithium, it could be something as simple as a description from one of your favorite childhood stories about "certain weapons that seem to never lose their (insert color here)-ish glimmer and burn white hot when striking the undead". Making that connection right there is more wisdom than intelligence. It's even appropriate in the sense that one of the main reasons you probably became a paladin in the first place was because of those stories. Also, note the reaction of the church - they KNOW about Illithium and that it's supposed to be more precious than gold, and these are priests and clerics. The ore is not so uncommon that their reaction is not straight up "WTF is Illithium?".
At this point though our argument seems to be just going around in circles.
The fact is that you don't need it to beat Bodhi and her guild. It's not necessary.
It's a matter of personal roleplaying preferences if you get the upgrade for the mace or not.
As far as running in circles, we can exchange opinions about our roleplaying preferences, but we can't convince others that our choices are better, wiser, more logical than theirs.
In the end you just have do your thing, otherwise the deity would not have allowed you to become their champion in the first place. After all, they can always just take your power back. Unless of course your god is more lawful than anything else, then good luck with that.
I mean that at this point we're just repeating our arguments. We were trying to convince each other that it was a personal preference thing, then we decided there was a bit more to it than that based on the dialog, then it turns out both the dialog and the lore were already pretty vague in the first place, so after a bit of why-the-hell-would-you-do-something-like-that back-and-forth arguing we're now back to square one.
I kid myself that I’m not doing anything dishonest, but the pile of real illithium at my feet is pretty damning!
to be LG does not mean to be beyond the temptations of the world, only people with a high grade of spiritual evolution can consider the items as tools and not possessions, and even for them, as the use and not the possession is the important thing, there can be a reason why that item (or better the item upgraded with that precious metal) can be more useful then a statue in a temple.
they have 2 obligations, one with the church, to find it for the statue, the other is a life time obligation, fight the evil, and for some LG the latter can prevail, not cause they are greedy, but cause the upgraded weapon is really useful.
they are going to fight against very powerful undeads, so powerful that are creating big problems to the super powerful thief guild, it is not granted that charname's party can prevail without that item, for most of us it is so only thanks of the "reload power", thing that surely has not to be considered in a RP decision.
if the mace is needed or not to beat bodhi depends on the difficulty setting and on the player skills, RP wise charname ignores her real power, but is sure that she is extremely powerful, only extremely powerful people and organizations can openly work against the ST.
the reason to have the upgraded weapon can be both greediness or " fair use" of a tool that is really helpful.
to decide which obligation prevail, the one with the priests or the one to fight the evil, is subjective, not objective.
those are both RP decisions, but is the way the LG charname is role played, not the alignment in itself, that set the result.
sir sarles is not the artist. the man is clearly a no-talent hack - easily proven because true genius is never appreciated in its own time
the art is in the interaction of the secular, the divine and the profane. The creative tension between these three forces is the medium in which true art can exist.
- Consequentialism -with its main representative, utilitarianism- considers that the morality of an action can be judged by its consequences. In our case, the action of keeping the real illithium can be considered good if it results in a higher benefit.
- Deontology on the other hand - with its main representative being Kantian (or neo-Kantian) ethics- posits that the morality of an action should be judged by the intention of the moral agent. If you have knowledge of that it is possible to obtain the pure illithium yet keep it for yourself, you are engaging in deception. As Kant would put it, you are treating others as means for yourself (your goals) rather than ends in themselves; therefore, your action fails the universalization test and is immoral.
- Virtue ethics - mainly represented by Aristotelian ethics and also having seen theoretical resurgence lately- is the position that there are virtues that one should strive to embody. It is quite hard to come up with a classification of virtues -and their counterparts, vices- that are ordered in a way that lets you determine with certainty the morality of an action. It is also the one I am least familiar with so I can hardly give an informed opinion regarding our matter using this position.
There are a few hybrid positions but the more you try to achieve synthesis, the harder it becomes for an action to be moral -or good.
Only an evil character could legitimately use it to gain political power by bribing the church with a vanity project.