Something about the presentation of Divinity Original Sin 2 vs the tone of a lot of the events within it felt off. I tend to be a big fan of dark stories, of horror or just really messed up content, and my complaint about most things today is they have no edge. However, being a story of that kind requires a certain skill, to bring film parlance into it, it needs to have good direction. Atmosphere is key, and I think the visual style of OS2, and a lot of the dialogue and a lot of the characters just don't fit with the more serious story that they attempt to have. It has this dark stuff in it and yet I'm never convinced of its sincerity, it lacks maturity in handling this kind of material. And to be honest its a pattern I'm noticing more and more. I used to be into anime a lot, keyword used to because 99% of it is absolute trash now, and a lot of that is to do with the fact none of them know how to present serious subject matter, none of them understand tone at all.
Baldur's Gate always had this gritty look to it thanks to the infinity engine. It might not have been planned really but a somewhat sombre tone seems to fit those games, it certainly helped for Planescape Torment a lot. Add in sound design that I really do not think has even been touched by any of these modern competitors and it comes off so much better when the story goes into what being a Bhaalspawn means. The opening in Irenicus' dungeon is, I don't care if you feel a need to skip it later or not, one of, maybe the best openings to an RPG ever conceived. Without getting really explicit; between Imoen's obviously broken demeanour that makes my heart weep for her, Irenicus' "home" offers a look at his nature; he is a monster, with a pathological obsession with something he thinks he can get from you. One of the big things that makes BG2 the best RPG ever made (or perhaps competing with Shin Megami Tensei III which was also an absolute masterpiece) is the opening motives me to want to destroy Irenicus, and rarely does a game kick off with such an elegant way of making the player angry and wanting to confront someone. Then the game really doesn't let up, it tends to be at its best when it insinuates you are a child of murder and misery and violence will dog you wherever you go.
I just wish I could say Original Sin 2, past the first act kept me motivated but it didn't, its pretty clear Larian had no idea what to do with the story after Fort Joy so they make you spin your wheels for like 30 hours and even then the ending is just a bad version of Throne of Bhaal's ending (I spoiled it all for myself, sue me). And my use of bad there isn't me saying ToB's ending was amazing to begin with either.
Baldur's Gate always had this gritty look to it thanks to the infinity engine. It might not have been planned really but a somewhat sombre tone seems to fit those games, it certainly helped for Planescape Torment a lot. Add in sound design that I really do not think has even been touched by any of these modern competitors and it comes off so much better when the story goes into what being a Bhaalspawn means. The opening in Irenicus' dungeon is, I don't care if you feel a need to skip it later or not, one of, maybe the best openings to an RPG ever conceived. Without getting really explicit; between Imoen's obviously broken demeanour that makes my heart weep for her, Irenicus' "home" offers a look at his nature; he is a monster, with a pathological obsession with something he thinks he can get from you. One of the big things that makes BG2 the best RPG ever made (or perhaps competing with Shin Megami Tensei III which was also an absolute masterpiece) is the opening motives me to want to destroy Irenicus, and rarely does a game kick off with such an elegant way of making the player angry and wanting to confront someone. Then the game really doesn't let up, it tends to be at its best when it insinuates you are a child of murder and misery and violence will dog you wherever you go.
I agree, and to selfishly tie it in with my previos post, it manages this somber tone without being overly graphic, gory or explicitly putting it in words. It insinuates instead of showing off how dark it is.
The exact nature of what was done to you and Imoen is left up to your own imagination, and I much prefer it that way to some of the darker things in D:OS.
The exact nature of what was done to you and Imoen is left up to your own imagination, and I much prefer it that way to some of the darker things in D:OS.
Yeah, with storytelling there's always a balance needed between the implicit and the explicit. I just feel like the writers on BG2 were far more competent than Larian's writers. Since I want to be a writer too I'm learning and forming my own views of how these things should be done, which I think gives me more of an admiration for the works I think are great but also makes me far less tolerant of when I know its not being done well.
*edit* - I think I also want to add that this, this is the heart of the matter about my feelings about BG3. I can deal with gameplay changes, I can deal with the fact BG3 will basically be a new story. But what I want most from BG3 as a concept and what I feel Larian are not equipped to deliver is what would make BG3 a great sequel to me; an understanding of the strong storytelling in BG1 and BG2 and following up on it with tone, atmosphere and a soundtrack that's worthy.
Baldur's Gate had a really balanced tone. It was often times just as (if not more) goofy than it was "dark". I don't get why people are pushing for the new game to be "mature."
No piece of media that was created with the intent of being mature has ever succeeded. Its alway either lands in over the top parody, or the kind of "mature" that highschool kids think they are being when they smoke and swear behind the shed.
The only mature story, is the story which was written to be what it is. With no apologies or intents to be mature.
I think I also want to add that this, this is the heart of the matter about my feelings about BG3. I can deal with gameplay changes, I can deal with the fact BG3 will basically be a new story. But what I want most from BG3 as a concept and what I feel Larian are not equipped to deliver is what would make BG3 a great sequel to me; an understanding of the strong storytelling in BG1 and BG2 and following up on it with tone, atmosphere and a soundtrack that's worthy.
This, for me personally, is the thing on which much of my opinion hinges: does it deserve the added "3", or even the title of "Baldur's Gate"?
Although I should mention that imo some gameplay elements can really add to, or take away from, the atmosphere. RTwP vs TB comes to mind, I'm just afraid that adopting the latter would adversely impact it. I am willing to be pleasantly surprised, and we do not have much to go on at this point anyway.
Thaco, I don't know if you're getting where I and Ammar are coming from, although maybe it's not us you're responding too. This isn't about maturity, but the quality of the writing. The word "mature" has been abused, really abused in this regard.
I just think Original Sin 1 and 2 were not well written. BG1 was fine and BG2 was really well written. Why this is has a lot of to do with the things I and Ammar have gone into detail about and its very clear I think why Larian have struggled with their writing, if you'd played them you'd better get what we're talking about I'd imagine.
So I'm reading now that there is a quote that the Dungeons and Dragons leveling system is "too slow" for a video game:
“That’s actually been one of the things that we’ve been struggling with, because it’s a very slow leveling process in the books,” he says. As D&D players will know, gaining ten or 12 levels on the tabletop is a journey that could last weeks, but for a videogame, it’s “not a lot.”
Nevertheless, Larian is making a D&D game. Therefore: “We wanted to stick to it. So we’re figuring out ways of letting you still feel that you’re progressing in a meaningful manner, but in a videogame manner.”
Slow leveling is probably the MAIN reason Baldur's Gate is so good. If you are going to reach the upper echelons of power, expect it to take upwards of 150-200 hours. Getting those levels and dice roll chances for your hit points in the Infinity Engine games is one of the best things about it.
Slow leveling is probably the MAIN reason Baldur's Gate is so good. If you are going to reach the upper echelons of power, expect it to take upwards of 150-200 hours. Getting those levels and dice roll chances for your hit points in the Infinity Engine games is one of the best things about it.
It sounds like they're going to leave leveling alone, but find other ways to empower the character. I guess we'll have to wait to see what that looks like.
I do think that it won't be as drawn out as BG1+2, as that took two games to get to high levels. 5e scales from level 1 to 20, so it's probably appropriate to expect we will start at or near level1, and reach level 20 by the end of the game. (Which seems totally reasonable to me).
Slow leveling is probably the MAIN reason Baldur's Gate is so good. If you are going to reach the upper echelons of power, expect it to take upwards of 150-200 hours. Getting those levels and dice roll chances for your hit points in the Infinity Engine games is one of the best things about it.
This. Slower leveling can add to satisfaction, milestones reached. Can't have it too slow though, our 4e PnP game we've been at for over a year and we're still lvl 6. That might partly be because infrequent gatherings, partly because our DM is not concerned about keeping track of the actual numerical XP, but the aforementioned milestones.
So I'm reading now that there is a quote that the Dungeons and Dragons leveling system is "too slow" for a video game:
“That’s actually been one of the things that we’ve been struggling with, because it’s a very slow leveling process in the books,” he says. As D&D players will know, gaining ten or 12 levels on the tabletop is a journey that could last weeks, but for a videogame, it’s “not a lot.”
Nevertheless, Larian is making a D&D game. Therefore: “We wanted to stick to it. So we’re figuring out ways of letting you still feel that you’re progressing in a meaningful manner, but in a videogame manner.”
Slow leveling is probably the MAIN reason Baldur's Gate is so good. If you are going to reach the upper echelons of power, expect it to take upwards of 150-200 hours. Getting those levels and dice roll chances for your hit points in the Infinity Engine games is one of the best things about it.
Leveling on D&D is simple.
LV 1 - Very close to be an normal peasant
LV 20 - Very close to be an demigod
Of course, leveling needs to take time. Most Wizards on D&D prime material world are probably lv 5/6.
Slow leveling is probably the MAIN reason Baldur's Gate is so good. If you are going to reach the upper echelons of power, expect it to take upwards of 150-200 hours. Getting those levels and dice roll chances for your hit points in the Infinity Engine games is one of the best things about it.
What the what?? Leveling in the BG games is blindingly fast. You get to 6th level in a couple of weeks, 20th in a couple months. It's actually the thing I found most jarring going from tabletop to CRPG back in the day.
I picked up D:OS since it's on sale (thanks @jjstraka34 ) and I'm playing through the tutorial. I've only had the one combat so far, but I found it enjoyable. I'm old and slow, so the turn based system worked pretty well for me. I still like the RTwP, but if they go with turn based, I don't think I'm going to have a problem with it.
I am surprised to see some comments here. Yeah, the bg trilogy has some serious, dark and gritty stories, but I will never feel that as something that defines the saga.
Even in the dismal lands infested of dark shadows of Umar Hills you found the Umar witch project. In bg games there is a ranger with a space hamster and a taste for butkicking evil foes; each and every banter with Jan or Tiax, when in tob you can be a questgiver for noob adventurers and they reload when you kill them as the slayer; You have the innocence of Imoen despite what happens to her in bg2; A exploding ogre; A guy who teleports when he sees you, Peter of the North and Randy of the west, a mecha armor made with golden pantaloons....
Let us be honest, despite all the dark story in the saga, I think they never intended these games to be Silent hill
If you compare with another crpg games like Pst or the first PoE, with a more dramatic approach to their trama, you can see that in bg seriousness is there, but it never was the point. So I expect from BG3 the same: adventures with laughs and screams, moments of seriousness but also some Jan Jansen moments.
And about Larian and their writers: in the DoS games I agree that both games have some plot holes and the trama is somewhat messy, focusing more in game content than in a solid treatment of the story and characters evolution. But to be honest, I found no rpg that does that besides Pst and the LotH: Trails of cold steel.
The thing that gives me hope is that in DoS games I allways found a compelling and interesting cast of companions. I liked the way that they introduce you to their characters, defining their characters and telling you lots of things in only a few sentences. Yeah, I know they talk a lot but I really enjoyed the way you meet your faithful (or not) companions. Bairdotr and his grunts, or wolfgraf in the first game, the silent rogue that only says four sentences in the entire game. Or the first two conversations with Sebille, just before he joins you ("Rolling dice, deciding fates" "Don´t worry darling, I do not lick and tell") or the friendship banters with Ifan if you take him all along.
And about Larian and their writers: in the DoS games I agree that both games have some plot holes and the trama is somewhat messy, focusing more in game content than in a solid treatment of the story and characters evolution. But to be honest, I found no rpg that does that besides Pst and the LotH: Trails of cold steel.
For what it's worth: KOTOR 2, NWN2: MotB are other examples besides PS:T. Also, to a lesser extent Gothic, Ultima and even PoE.
Slow leveling is probably the MAIN reason Baldur's Gate is so good. If you are going to reach the upper echelons of power, expect it to take upwards of 150-200 hours. Getting those levels and dice roll chances for your hit points in the Infinity Engine games is one of the best things about it.
What the what?? Leveling in the BG games is blindingly fast. You get to 6th level in a couple of weeks, 20th in a couple months. It's actually the thing I found most jarring going from tabletop to CRPG back in the day.
I picked up D:OS since it's on sale (thanks @jjstraka34 ) and I'm playing through the tutorial. I've only had the one combat so far, but I found it enjoyable. I'm old and slow, so the turn based system worked pretty well for me. I still like the RTwP, but if they go with turn based, I don't think I'm going to have a problem with it.
I think in terms of levelling speed, gameplay time usually matters more than in-game time. But yes, BG is still pretty fast. But still compare BG1 and BG2 where you had to complete two massive games and still ended up below level 20 for most classes (without ToB) to newer D&D titles like NWN 2 or KOTOR 1 and 2 where you reached level 20 in a single campaign. Even the new Pathfinder game goes up to Level 20.
Pillars of Eternity (heavily BG inspired) without DLC went to level 12, which was closer to the old limits than the others below. But again, 2nd game has you go straight from 1 to 20.
In fact, there was little inflation in BG compared to previous title. The level caps were somewhat higher than for the old Pool of Radiance, but very similar to Champions of Krynn. The pre-ToB BG2 level cap was similar to the Secret of the Silver Blades cap, which was the third game of that series. And BG1+BG2 certainly had more content than the first three games of the Pool series.
And about Larian and their writers: in the DoS games I agree that both games have some plot holes and the trama is somewhat messy, focusing more in game content than in a solid treatment of the story and characters evolution. But to be honest, I found no rpg that does that besides Pst and the LotH: Trails of cold steel.
For what it's worth: KOTOR 2, NWN2: MotB are other examples besides PS:T. Also, to a lesser extent Gothic, Ultima and even PoE.
Would folks recommend trying Divinity: Original Sin 1 or 2 as a way for me to get a sense of what Larian might do with BG III? Unfamiliar with both.
The first game is on sale at GoG right now for $11.99. I just started, and it's interesting so far. The combat takes a little getting used to. I've only really played the IE games before, but I'm finding it more intuitive than Pillars of Eternity.
@JuliusBorisov Thanks you. Its nice to have one of the hyped people actually add meaningful points to the conversation, and without insulting everyone who isn't happy.
What about the writing? Do you think Larian understands the themes and tone of the series?
@ThacoBell I've been thinking 3 days about this. I know there are people mentioning "light" or "humorous " writing in DOS 1&2, especially in the first game.
While there's humor in banters, I don't agree the games are "light". Wherever you go, you find really bad stuff: treachery, craving for money or power, deaths, sacrifices. I think the "light" writing in certain places helps to underline the cruelty of NPCs you meet. I always felt this effect of showing opposite things: something to make you smile, and then suddenly a grim moment.
DOS2 is much darker than DOS1, - I don't actually remember goofy moments there. The themes of human souls, power, resurrection, surviving, magic, gods, and choices are present in DOS just as they are present in BG2.
I also researched a bit for a short video without major spoilers which could explain WHY I not only think writing in the DOS games is ok, but actually like it and find it serious enough, without extremes. I think I've found such a video:
Would folks recommend trying Divinity: Original Sin 1 or 2 as a way for me to get a sense of what Larian might do with BG III? Unfamiliar with both.
I recommend both games, especially the second one because it has a very active modding community ("no one has many friends as a man with many mods") ; but I do not think those games can predict BG3 (At least I hope not) because the game mechanics and the world, in general, are very very different from D&D and I do not think you can translate it well.
The second game has a race very similar to Dragonkin, and if the new BG3 will use D&D 5e I suppose you will have them. Also dwarves, elves, etc, but they do not relate at all al their faerun counterparts. The game is TB, with no class system ( you can bough the skills you want, but they need requirements so you cannot have an uber-char-that-do-all skyrim style), your companions are customizable so you can choose whoever you fancy and make a balanced group with them. Which is good because they talk a lot so it is fine to mix different parties. That flexibility and the stats can be somewhat related to D&D 4e, pathfinder; but skills work differently, both in and outside combat. I kinda liked the thievery system, tho.
I am fond of the free exploration and no-linear-forced pace in most of the maps. Plenty of subquest, hidden quests, secret zones and places to explore too. That reminds me of the old BG.
I like the "Talk with the dead" divine power, because you can go back to zones you were and learn much about the spirits there and opens new quests or the devore spirit ( Motb, who?)
Some modders even created versions of their old NWN modules for DoS ( If I remember well one of them is "A candle in the dark", I played it on the old nwn =D ) and the story is the same, but the mechanics feel very different.
@JuliusBorisov@ThacoBell Yeah, I also do not understand much about such hate about the writers of DoS. Both games have plot holes, but the quests, dialogs with npc and especially the companions´interactions are fairly well written IMHO. I´ve read far worse (Bg novels of Abdel Adrian, for example XDD)
An yeah, dealing with the dead, fanatics, witches, demons or posessed by the void in dos will give you pretty gritty moments, and you also have some awful decisions to make. Depending on your main character plot there is no good way, you only can choose the lesser evil or not (without spoilering much, the dwarven queen trama or Sir Gareth, for example, or the entire end quarter of the game) but I found it written in a tasteful way, Not yellow-press style nor old-disney fairytale.
Yeah, I also do not understand much about such hate about the writers of DoS. Both games have plot holes, but the quests, dialogs with npc and especially the companions´interactions are fairly well written IMHO. I´ve read far worse (Bg novels of Abdel Adrian, for example XDD)
I personally find the aesthetics and the more dark stuff the story goes into do not fit. I'm quite hardcore on this, the game is just far too colourful and comic book fantasy in look to match the tone of a lot of the stuff that happens in the story. I do feel aesthetic design is important and needs to really match everything else, and Original Sin 2 really doesn't do this. There's other issues with the writing I take but this issue is the biggest one that really damages the whole feel of the game for me.
BG3 based on the teaser video they did show will probably address this much at least, as in its visual design looks like what it ought to be, but I'm still very much guarded because in the end, so far the only real evidence we have of whether Larian could do a good Baldur's Gate game is the games they've already made.
BioWare is now a slave of mindflayers(EA) that likes to purchase brains and suck then dry
Obsidian, if din't sold his soul to Mephistopheles(M$) will be better
Larien has no experience with the same type of RPG that BG is and some comments generate a lot of concerns. I wish that was CD Projekt Red or owlcat games, but they are too small for an AAA game and CD projekt is "dealing" with Cyberpunk 2077 that probably launches on 2077
I see an argument about Owlcat games quite often. Those who mention that company, please think about the following.
Cristiano Ronaldo can't play in the same team as Messi. Mercedes-Benz can't work with BMW. Owlcat games created a game in collaboration with Paizo, so any contract with WotC couldn't happen due to legal terms.
Also, in 2016-2017 (when the deal about BGIII was signed) Owlcat games just started working on their first game, Pathfinder: Kingmaker.
Would folks recommend trying Divinity: Original Sin 1 or 2 as a way for me to get a sense of what Larian might do with BG III? Unfamiliar with both.
It will give you an idea of what Larian can do but not what BGIII will be. The settings are not the same, Larian will have to adapt to match the D&D style.
Would folks recommend trying Divinity: Original Sin 1 or 2 as a way for me to get a sense of what Larian might do with BG III? Unfamiliar with both.
It will give you an idea of what Larian can do but not what BGIII will be. The settings are not the same, Larian will have to adapt to match the D&D style.
All fair points, but I think you can possibly gauge a lot about BG3 based on the games, at least in terms of competence. I think we can safely toss out most of the character creation and combat rules, since we know they have to adopt 5e DnD. I have to think alot of the basics about the engine will carry over. Not necessarily the art style but the isometric-but-3d environments and how your guys move thru the world could also still be preserved. And frankly, I think that's stuff that should make BG fans optimistic. Because on that level, the OS games very much play out as a modern BG game.
Would folks recommend trying Divinity: Original Sin 1 or 2 as a way for me to get a sense of what Larian might do with BG III? Unfamiliar with both.
It will give you an idea of what Larian can do but not what BGIII will be. The settings are not the same, Larian will have to adapt to match the D&D style.
All fair points, but I think you can possibly gauge a lot about BG3 based on the games, at least in terms of competence. I think we can safely toss out most of the character creation and combat rules, since we know they have to adopt 5e DnD. I have to think alot of the basics about the engine will carry over. Not necessarily the art style but the isometric-but-3d environments and how your guys move thru the world could also still be preserved. And frankly, I think that's stuff that should make BG fans optimistic. Because on that level, the OS games very much play out as a modern BG game.
I see any Larian game as an completely different game than any old school RPG, not only BG/IWD/NWN, but compared to M&M VII(my first RPG) and other games. I fell that the game is much more aobut environmental gimmicks tan an living breathing world...
Would folks recommend trying Divinity: Original Sin 1 or 2 as a way for me to get a sense of what Larian might do with BG III? Unfamiliar with both.
The first game is on sale at GoG right now for $11.99. I just started, and it's interesting so far. The combat takes a little getting used to. I've only really played the IE games before, but I'm finding it more intuitive than Pillars of Eternity.
Thanks Billy! I see also that the D:OS Enhanced Edition is available via Steam for $40. Anyone feel that the difference is dramatic enough to warrant getting the EE version? I'm basically just trying to get a feel for what Larian has done, so the standard version is probably fine.
Or might D:OS 2 give me a better idea of what Larian might be offering us with BG III?
I'm probably never going to actually complete either D:OS or D:OS 2. I just want to noodle around with it and get a feel for the gameplay.
Would folks recommend trying Divinity: Original Sin 1 or 2 as a way for me to get a sense of what Larian might do with BG III? Unfamiliar with both.
The first game is on sale at GoG right now for $11.99. I just started, and it's interesting so far. The combat takes a little getting used to. I've only really played the IE games before, but I'm finding it more intuitive than Pillars of Eternity.
Thanks Billy! I see also that the D:OS Enhanced Edition is available via Steam for $40. Anyone feel that the difference is dramatic enough to warrant getting the EE version? I'm basically just trying to get a feel for what Larian has done, so the standard version is probably fine.
Or might D:OS 2 give me a better idea of what Larian might be offering us with BG III?
I'm probably never going to actually complete either D:OS or D:OS 2. I just want to noodle around with it and get a feel for the gameplay.
Well, according to a number of the folks who are excited about this game, BG3 is not going to be anything like D:OS2, so ....
@Lemernis DOS2 is a better game (overall). Give it a go, and if you find yourself liking it after 3-6 hours, buy DOS1, and then play the first game first.
Would folks recommend trying Divinity: Original Sin 1 or 2 as a way for me to get a sense of what Larian might do with BG III? Unfamiliar with both.
The first game is on sale at GoG right now for $11.99. I just started, and it's interesting so far. The combat takes a little getting used to. I've only really played the IE games before, but I'm finding it more intuitive than Pillars of Eternity.
Thanks Billy! I see also that the D:OS Enhanced Edition is available via Steam for $40. Anyone feel that the difference is dramatic enough to warrant getting the EE version? I'm basically just trying to get a feel for what Larian has done, so the standard version is probably fine.
Or might D:OS 2 give me a better idea of what Larian might be offering us with BG III?
I'm probably never going to actually complete either D:OS or D:OS 2. I just want to noodle around with it and get a feel for the gameplay.
Comments
Baldur's Gate always had this gritty look to it thanks to the infinity engine. It might not have been planned really but a somewhat sombre tone seems to fit those games, it certainly helped for Planescape Torment a lot. Add in sound design that I really do not think has even been touched by any of these modern competitors and it comes off so much better when the story goes into what being a Bhaalspawn means. The opening in Irenicus' dungeon is, I don't care if you feel a need to skip it later or not, one of, maybe the best openings to an RPG ever conceived. Without getting really explicit; between Imoen's obviously broken demeanour that makes my heart weep for her, Irenicus' "home" offers a look at his nature; he is a monster, with a pathological obsession with something he thinks he can get from you. One of the big things that makes BG2 the best RPG ever made (or perhaps competing with Shin Megami Tensei III which was also an absolute masterpiece) is the opening motives me to want to destroy Irenicus, and rarely does a game kick off with such an elegant way of making the player angry and wanting to confront someone. Then the game really doesn't let up, it tends to be at its best when it insinuates you are a child of murder and misery and violence will dog you wherever you go.
I just wish I could say Original Sin 2, past the first act kept me motivated but it didn't, its pretty clear Larian had no idea what to do with the story after Fort Joy so they make you spin your wheels for like 30 hours and even then the ending is just a bad version of Throne of Bhaal's ending (I spoiled it all for myself, sue me). And my use of bad there isn't me saying ToB's ending was amazing to begin with either.
I agree, and to selfishly tie it in with my previos post, it manages this somber tone without being overly graphic, gory or explicitly putting it in words. It insinuates instead of showing off how dark it is.
The exact nature of what was done to you and Imoen is left up to your own imagination, and I much prefer it that way to some of the darker things in D:OS.
Yeah, with storytelling there's always a balance needed between the implicit and the explicit. I just feel like the writers on BG2 were far more competent than Larian's writers. Since I want to be a writer too I'm learning and forming my own views of how these things should be done, which I think gives me more of an admiration for the works I think are great but also makes me far less tolerant of when I know its not being done well.
*edit* - I think I also want to add that this, this is the heart of the matter about my feelings about BG3. I can deal with gameplay changes, I can deal with the fact BG3 will basically be a new story. But what I want most from BG3 as a concept and what I feel Larian are not equipped to deliver is what would make BG3 a great sequel to me; an understanding of the strong storytelling in BG1 and BG2 and following up on it with tone, atmosphere and a soundtrack that's worthy.
No piece of media that was created with the intent of being mature has ever succeeded. Its alway either lands in over the top parody, or the kind of "mature" that highschool kids think they are being when they smoke and swear behind the shed.
The only mature story, is the story which was written to be what it is. With no apologies or intents to be mature.
This, for me personally, is the thing on which much of my opinion hinges: does it deserve the added "3", or even the title of "Baldur's Gate"?
Although I should mention that imo some gameplay elements can really add to, or take away from, the atmosphere. RTwP vs TB comes to mind, I'm just afraid that adopting the latter would adversely impact it. I am willing to be pleasantly surprised, and we do not have much to go on at this point anyway.
I just think Original Sin 1 and 2 were not well written. BG1 was fine and BG2 was really well written. Why this is has a lot of to do with the things I and Ammar have gone into detail about and its very clear I think why Larian have struggled with their writing, if you'd played them you'd better get what we're talking about I'd imagine.
“That’s actually been one of the things that we’ve been struggling with, because it’s a very slow leveling process in the books,” he says. As D&D players will know, gaining ten or 12 levels on the tabletop is a journey that could last weeks, but for a videogame, it’s “not a lot.”
Nevertheless, Larian is making a D&D game. Therefore: “We wanted to stick to it. So we’re figuring out ways of letting you still feel that you’re progressing in a meaningful manner, but in a videogame manner.”
Slow leveling is probably the MAIN reason Baldur's Gate is so good. If you are going to reach the upper echelons of power, expect it to take upwards of 150-200 hours. Getting those levels and dice roll chances for your hit points in the Infinity Engine games is one of the best things about it.
It sounds like they're going to leave leveling alone, but find other ways to empower the character. I guess we'll have to wait to see what that looks like.
I do think that it won't be as drawn out as BG1+2, as that took two games to get to high levels. 5e scales from level 1 to 20, so it's probably appropriate to expect we will start at or near level1, and reach level 20 by the end of the game. (Which seems totally reasonable to me).
This. Slower leveling can add to satisfaction, milestones reached. Can't have it too slow though, our 4e PnP game we've been at for over a year and we're still lvl 6.
Leveling on D&D is simple.
LV 1 - Very close to be an normal peasant
LV 20 - Very close to be an demigod
Of course, leveling needs to take time. Most Wizards on D&D prime material world are probably lv 5/6.
Well, i think that is good. I mean, if wasen't by 4th edition, we will never have Pathfinder.
Now is another chance to an RPG to take out the D&D throne.
edit : found source about leveling, but where did you read about slots?
What the what?? Leveling in the BG games is blindingly fast. You get to 6th level in a couple of weeks, 20th in a couple months. It's actually the thing I found most jarring going from tabletop to CRPG back in the day.
I picked up D:OS since it's on sale (thanks @jjstraka34 ) and I'm playing through the tutorial. I've only had the one combat so far, but I found it enjoyable. I'm old and slow, so the turn based system worked pretty well for me. I still like the RTwP, but if they go with turn based, I don't think I'm going to have a problem with it.
Even in the dismal lands infested of dark shadows of Umar Hills you found the Umar witch project. In bg games there is a ranger with a space hamster and a taste for butkicking evil foes; each and every banter with Jan or Tiax, when in tob you can be a questgiver for noob adventurers and they reload when you kill them as the slayer; You have the innocence of Imoen despite what happens to her in bg2; A exploding ogre; A guy who teleports when he sees you, Peter of the North and Randy of the west, a mecha armor made with golden pantaloons....
Let us be honest, despite all the dark story in the saga, I think they never intended these games to be Silent hill
If you compare with another crpg games like Pst or the first PoE, with a more dramatic approach to their trama, you can see that in bg seriousness is there, but it never was the point. So I expect from BG3 the same: adventures with laughs and screams, moments of seriousness but also some Jan Jansen moments.
And about Larian and their writers: in the DoS games I agree that both games have some plot holes and the trama is somewhat messy, focusing more in game content than in a solid treatment of the story and characters evolution. But to be honest, I found no rpg that does that besides Pst and the LotH: Trails of cold steel.
The thing that gives me hope is that in DoS games I allways found a compelling and interesting cast of companions. I liked the way that they introduce you to their characters, defining their characters and telling you lots of things in only a few sentences. Yeah, I know they talk a lot but I really enjoyed the way you meet your faithful (or not) companions. Bairdotr and his grunts, or wolfgraf in the first game, the silent rogue that only says four sentences in the entire game. Or the first two conversations with Sebille, just before he joins you ("Rolling dice, deciding fates" "Don´t worry darling, I do not lick and tell") or the friendship banters with Ifan if you take him all along.
For what it's worth: KOTOR 2, NWN2: MotB are other examples besides PS:T. Also, to a lesser extent Gothic, Ultima and even PoE.
I think in terms of levelling speed, gameplay time usually matters more than in-game time. But yes, BG is still pretty fast. But still compare BG1 and BG2 where you had to complete two massive games and still ended up below level 20 for most classes (without ToB) to newer D&D titles like NWN 2 or KOTOR 1 and 2 where you reached level 20 in a single campaign. Even the new Pathfinder game goes up to Level 20.
Pillars of Eternity (heavily BG inspired) without DLC went to level 12, which was closer to the old limits than the others below. But again, 2nd game has you go straight from 1 to 20.
In fact, there was little inflation in BG compared to previous title. The level caps were somewhat higher than for the old Pool of Radiance, but very similar to Champions of Krynn. The pre-ToB BG2 level cap was similar to the Secret of the Silver Blades cap, which was the third game of that series. And BG1+BG2 certainly had more content than the first three games of the Pool series.
Thx, gotta check them.
The first game is on sale at GoG right now for $11.99. I just started, and it's interesting so far. The combat takes a little getting used to. I've only really played the IE games before, but I'm finding it more intuitive than Pillars of Eternity.
I also researched a bit for a short video without major spoilers which could explain WHY I not only think writing in the DOS games is ok, but actually like it and find it serious enough, without extremes. I think I've found such a video:
I recommend both games, especially the second one because it has a very active modding community ("no one has many friends as a man with many mods") ; but I do not think those games can predict BG3 (At least I hope not) because the game mechanics and the world, in general, are very very different from D&D and I do not think you can translate it well.
The second game has a race very similar to Dragonkin, and if the new BG3 will use D&D 5e I suppose you will have them. Also dwarves, elves, etc, but they do not relate at all al their faerun counterparts. The game is TB, with no class system ( you can bough the skills you want, but they need requirements so you cannot have an uber-char-that-do-all skyrim style), your companions are customizable so you can choose whoever you fancy and make a balanced group with them. Which is good because they talk a lot so it is fine to mix different parties. That flexibility and the stats can be somewhat related to D&D 4e, pathfinder; but skills work differently, both in and outside combat. I kinda liked the thievery system, tho.
I am fond of the free exploration and no-linear-forced pace in most of the maps. Plenty of subquest, hidden quests, secret zones and places to explore too. That reminds me of the old BG.
I like the "Talk with the dead" divine power, because you can go back to zones you were and learn much about the spirits there and opens new quests or the devore spirit ( Motb, who?)
Some modders even created versions of their old NWN modules for DoS ( If I remember well one of them is "A candle in the dark", I played it on the old nwn =D ) and the story is the same, but the mechanics feel very different.
@JuliusBorisov @ThacoBell Yeah, I also do not understand much about such hate about the writers of DoS. Both games have plot holes, but the quests, dialogs with npc and especially the companions´interactions are fairly well written IMHO. I´ve read far worse (Bg novels of Abdel Adrian, for example XDD)
An yeah, dealing with the dead, fanatics, witches, demons or posessed by the void in dos will give you pretty gritty moments, and you also have some awful decisions to make. Depending on your main character plot there is no good way, you only can choose the lesser evil or not (without spoilering much, the dwarven queen trama or Sir Gareth, for example, or the entire end quarter of the game) but I found it written in a tasteful way, Not yellow-press style nor old-disney fairytale.
I personally find the aesthetics and the more dark stuff the story goes into do not fit. I'm quite hardcore on this, the game is just far too colourful and comic book fantasy in look to match the tone of a lot of the stuff that happens in the story. I do feel aesthetic design is important and needs to really match everything else, and Original Sin 2 really doesn't do this. There's other issues with the writing I take but this issue is the biggest one that really damages the whole feel of the game for me.
BG3 based on the teaser video they did show will probably address this much at least, as in its visual design looks like what it ought to be, but I'm still very much guarded because in the end, so far the only real evidence we have of whether Larian could do a good Baldur's Gate game is the games they've already made.
Obsidian, if din't sold his soul to Mephistopheles(M$) will be better
Larien has no experience with the same type of RPG that BG is and some comments generate a lot of concerns. I wish that was CD Projekt Red or owlcat games, but they are too small for an AAA game and CD projekt is "dealing" with Cyberpunk 2077 that probably launches on 2077
Cristiano Ronaldo can't play in the same team as Messi. Mercedes-Benz can't work with BMW. Owlcat games created a game in collaboration with Paizo, so any contract with WotC couldn't happen due to legal terms.
Also, in 2016-2017 (when the deal about BGIII was signed) Owlcat games just started working on their first game, Pathfinder: Kingmaker.
It will give you an idea of what Larian can do but not what BGIII will be. The settings are not the same, Larian will have to adapt to match the D&D style.
All fair points, but I think you can possibly gauge a lot about BG3 based on the games, at least in terms of competence. I think we can safely toss out most of the character creation and combat rules, since we know they have to adopt 5e DnD. I have to think alot of the basics about the engine will carry over. Not necessarily the art style but the isometric-but-3d environments and how your guys move thru the world could also still be preserved. And frankly, I think that's stuff that should make BG fans optimistic. Because on that level, the OS games very much play out as a modern BG game.
I see any Larian game as an completely different game than any old school RPG, not only BG/IWD/NWN, but compared to M&M VII(my first RPG) and other games. I fell that the game is much more aobut environmental gimmicks tan an living breathing world...
Thanks Billy! I see also that the D:OS Enhanced Edition is available via Steam for $40. Anyone feel that the difference is dramatic enough to warrant getting the EE version? I'm basically just trying to get a feel for what Larian has done, so the standard version is probably fine.
Or might D:OS 2 give me a better idea of what Larian might be offering us with BG III?
I'm probably never going to actually complete either D:OS or D:OS 2. I just want to noodle around with it and get a feel for the gameplay.
Well, according to a number of the folks who are excited about this game, BG3 is not going to be anything like D:OS2, so ....
The one on sale at GoG is the Enhanced Edition.