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[BUILD] Paladin Of Lathander

SikorskySikorsky Member Posts: 366
Hi everyone!
After all these years human needs to make ideas to keep the game interesting. I came up with an idea: Priest of Lathander to Fighter dual class aka Paladin of Lathander. Let's look at what we can get. I would dual on the 10th level.
So as a pure Paladin we get access to 4th level cleric spells at level 15th. With our build, we get access to 5th level at level 10th. So Spell-speaking we are better than pure Paladin.
Turn-undead will be probably better for Paladin on high levels but we will not use it so it doesn’t matter.
Fighter levels give us Thac0, ApR, Greater Specialization and Fighter HLA.
High wisdom give us more spells per level – pure paladins don’t have that.
From cleric levels, we get 10 round Boon of Lathander and access to Righteous Magic also 10 round.
Righteous Magic is basically a variation of Kai or Offensive Spin for us, and it lasts 10 rounds!

On paper, this build looks very promising. What do you think? Am I missing some major cons? Or will it actually work very well?


Post edited by Sikorsky on
RAM021

Comments

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,899
    edited July 9
    If you are dual classing at level 9 you aren't going to get fighter HLAs. The paladin would get them though.

    Edit. Nevermind, just realized you are dual classing into a fighter. Paladins I guess can use the speed weapons while you can't?

    Sikorsky
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,343
    thats correct, remember you will ONLY ever be able to use cleric weapons, even when you dual into a fighter, so that is something to remember

    Sikorsky
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 823
    Spells that scale based on your level will also fall off as you go on.

    All your priest spells will forever cast as a level 9 priest. Your fighter levels won't improve them.

    So for example, Draw Upon Holy Might will increase all your physical stats by 3, no matter how high you level up as a fighter.

    A paladin's draw upon holy might will eventually increase you physical stats by up to 6. Twice as powerful.

    elminsterSikorsky
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,899
    Same goes with Dispel Magic.

    Chronicler
  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 101
    There's another notable weakness: you're getting Cleric hit points, not Fighter hit points. A comparison at 3 million total XP, assuming 18 Con:

    Cleric (PoL) 9/Fighter 19: 9*(1d8 + 2) + 10*3 HP. 120 max, 103 average if rolling.
    Paladin 18: 9*(1d10 + 4) + 9*3 HP. 153 max, 130 average if rolling.

    So then, you're giving up about 30 hit points - or 40 if you increase that to Con 19 with a tome. It's a major cost.

    Also - no, you don't unlock the dual class in SoD. It takes 725K total XP to complete it, more than the 500K cap. Level 9 is a great place to dual if you're not running SoD; if you are, I'd go to level 10 or level 11 instead and dual after starting SoA.
    Each additional Cleric level effectively costs you a Fighter level. In exchange? You get a level 4 and a level 5 slot for going to Cleric 10. For Cleric 11, you get level 1, 3, and 6 slots, plus additional uses of your kit abilities.

    elminsterChroniclerSikorsky
  • RAM021RAM021 Member Posts: 393
    While a longer dual, Cleric11 would get you another Boon of Lathander (and an extra Hold Undead) as well as 6th power spells; bringing you much closer to the IWD Paladin casting ability.

    semiticgodgorgonzolaSikorsky
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 823
    elminster wrote: »
    Same goes with Dispel Magic.

    Neither build's dispel magic would ever be terribly effective, would it?

    A paladin's caster level is 8 levels below their class level. So even at level 34 a paladin would only cast dispel magic as a level 26 priest, which would technically be better than the lathander build, but still fail to dispel anything anything cast by the high level mages you'd encounter at that point in the game.

    As far as I know outside of the inquisitor's innate ability, pureclass priests and bards are the only people who can dispel magic terribly effectively, capping out at level 40.

    Sikorsky
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 13,129
    Notably, level 11 will open up a Harm spell, and a Critical Strike HLA will guarantee a hit with Harm, though magic resistance and spell protections can still block Harm, as always.

    Boon of Lathander is an innate spell and is therefore actually cast at the average of your two class levels. This means that every 2 fighters levels you have more than cleric levels, Boon of Lathander will last another round. Thus, a level 11/17 Cleric of Lathander/Fighter's BoL will last 14 rounds instead of 11.

    ChroniclergorgonzolaSikorskyRAM021
  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 101
    Also, thinking about it - Lathander's not the only option, and RP-wise maybe not the best. A LG character can also be a priest of Helm or of Tyr, both of whom are clearly inclined to have paladins.

    The priest kits are each available to the god's alignment and each other alignment within one step; that's NG for Lathander, LN for Helm, and LG for Tyr.

    The kit spells, for comparison:
    Lathander: Hold Undead, Boon of Lathander (+1 attack, damage, saves, and APR, lasts 1 round/level)
    Helm: True Sight, Seeking Sword (+4 enchant, 2d4 damage, 3 APR, lasts 1 round/level)
    Tyr: Exaltation (Removes various disabling states and protects against them for one turn), Divine Favor (Attack and damage +1 per 3 levels, lasts 2 rounds)

    In each case, the first spell gets uses at level 1, 6, 11, etc. and the second gets uses at level 1, 11, etc. They're all useful spells for a warrior, too.

    RAM021
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,899
    Chronicler wrote: »
    elminster wrote: »
    Same goes with Dispel Magic.

    Neither build's dispel magic would ever be terribly effective, would it?

    A paladin's caster level is 8 levels below their class level. So even at level 34 a paladin would only cast dispel magic as a level 26 priest, which would technically be better than the lathander build, but still fail to dispel anything anything cast by the high level mages you'd encounter at that point in the game.

    As far as I know outside of the inquisitor's innate ability, pureclass priests and bards are the only people who can dispel magic terribly effectively, capping out at level 40.

    True.

    Sikorsky
  • SikorskySikorsky Member Posts: 366
    edited July 10
    sarevok57 wrote: »
    thats correct, remember you will ONLY ever be able to use cleric weapons, even when you dual into a fighter, so that is something to remember

    That's not much of a downside considering that the best or one of the best weapon is blunt.
    jmerry wrote: »
    There's another notable weakness: you're getting Cleric hit points, not Fighter hit points. A comparison at 3 million total XP, assuming 18 Con:

    Cleric (PoL) 9/Fighter 19: 9*(1d8 + 2) + 10*3 HP. 120 max, 103 average if rolling.
    Paladin 18: 9*(1d10 + 4) + 9*3 HP. 153 max, 130 average if rolling.

    So then, you're giving up about 30 hit points - or 40 if you increase that to Con 19 with a tome. It's a major cost.

    Yes I know about that. But this character will have low AC, access to Hardiness, maybe DoE in off-hand so less HP should not do as much harm.
    jmerry wrote: »
    Also - no, you don't unlock the dual class in SoD. It takes 725K total XP to complete it, more than the 500K cap. Level 9 is a great place to dual if you're not running SoD; if you are, I'd go to level 10 or level 11 instead and dual after starting SoA.
    Each additional Cleric level effectively costs you a Fighter level. In exchange? You get a level 4 and a level 5 slot for going to Cleric 10. For Cleric 11, you get level 1, 3, and 6 slots, plus additional uses of your kit abilities.

    You're right, that was my mistake. I was looking at exp needed for 9th level fighter insted of 10th. I will edit my post then.
    Chronicler wrote: »
    Spells that scale based on your level will also fall off as you go on.

    All your priest spells will forever cast as a level 9 priest. Your fighter levels won't improve them.
    So for example, Draw Upon Holy Might will increase all your physical stats by 3, no matter how high you level up as a fighter.
    A paladin's draw upon holy might will eventually increase you physical stats by up to 6. Twice as powerful.

    Ok, but not all spells progress with level. +3 from DUHM should be enouth late game with all other boosts and items. Armor of Faith will also give us only 10% but I'm OK with that. Dispel magic..... I think I will leave that to Keldorn, If we are talking about this spell it is him or nobody.
    RAM021 wrote: »
    While a longer dual, Cleric11 would get you another Boon of Lathander (and an extra Hold Undead) as well as 6th power spells; bringing you much closer to the IWD Paladin casting ability.

    Can someone confirm that? We're getting extra use on 11th or 10th? If it's on 11th - I think over it.
    semiticgod wrote: »
    Notably, level 11 will open up a Harm spell, and a Critical Strike HLA will guarantee a hit with Harm, though magic resistance and spell protections can still block Harm, as always.
    Boon of Lathander is an innate spell and is therefore actually cast at the average of your two class levels. This means that every 2 fighters levels you have more than cleric levels, Boon of Lathander will last another round. Thus, a level 11/17 Cleric of Lathander/Fighter's BoL will last 14 rounds instead of 11.

    Interesting. I didn't know about that. Another point for the build I guess.
    elminster wrote: »
    Paladins I guess can use the speed weapons while you can't?

    For challenging fights we can use BoL that give us +1 ApR and other bonuses so it kind of replaced the need of speed weapon. We can wield DoE in off-hand insteed and be kind of Tank with mellee power.
    jmerry wrote: »
    Also, thinking about it - Lathander's not the only option, and RP-wise maybe not the best. A LG character can also be a priest of Helm or of Tyr, both of whom are clearly inclined to have paladins.
    The priest kits are each available to the god's alignment and each other alignment within one step; that's NG for Lathander, LN for Helm, and LG for Tyr.
    The kit spells, for comparison:
    Lathander: Hold Undead, Boon of Lathander (+1 attack, damage, saves, and APR, lasts 1 round/level)
    Helm: True Sight, Seeking Sword (+4 enchant, 2d4 damage, 3 APR, lasts 1 round/level)
    Tyr: Exaltation (Removes various disabling states and protects against them for one turn), Divine Favor (Attack and damage +1 per 3 levels, lasts 2 rounds)
    In each case, the first spell gets uses at level 1, 6, 11, etc. and the second gets uses at level 1, 11, etc. They're all useful spells for a warrior, too.

    Yeah, Tyr would be cool for RP perspective. But there are Paladins of Lathander out there I guess..... that Boon is just too powerful.

  • SikorskySikorsky Member Posts: 366
    I do some research and find famous FR Paladin of Lathander. Sir Isteval. There are some nice portraits of him that I can steal for this build >:)
    wxjgsu2d8ytu.jpg
    gte1w8wjvulj.jpg

  • StromaelStromael Member Posts: 109
    Nice idea. If you dual to Ranger you can gradually include a few Druid spells in your repertoire, your alignment will "align" nicely, you get racial enemy plus free dual-wielding, and you don't receive the un-Paladin-like grandmastery capability. All at the cost of slower regaining of levels, which in the end matches the leveling speed of the Paladin anyway.

    You make up for the lack of speed weapon by using Boon of Lathander, which gives a +1 APR. Dual at 11 for optimal minimal downtime vs. maximal abilities/spell-casting. Include IWD Ranger spell-progression from Tweaks to unlock gradually even more awesome spells.

    semiticgodRAM021
  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 654
    Maybe create a vanilla paladin, adding the boon of lathander and hold undead as special abilities. If you further knowing how to do, adding turn undead to the same lvl as clerics.

  • SikorskySikorsky Member Posts: 366
    Stromael wrote: »
    Nice idea. If you dual to Ranger you can gradually include a few Druid spells in your repertoire, your alignment will "align" nicely, you get racial enemy plus free dual-wielding, and you don't receive the un-Paladin-like grandmastery capability. All at the cost of slower regaining of levels, which in the end matches the leveling speed of the Paladin anyway.

    You make up for the lack of speed weapon by using Boon of Lathander, which gives a +1 APR. Dual at 11 for optimal minimal downtime vs. maximal abilities/spell-casting. Include IWD Ranger spell-progression from Tweaks to unlock gradually even more awesome spells.

    I prefer Fighter for his grandmastery=more ApR, Thac0 and Damage. And Ranger from priest of Lathander is just.... strange at least. Also I don’t need that extra spells. This build is about to work like Paladin - few buffs and straight to battle.
    Danacm wrote: »
    Maybe create a vanilla paladin, adding the boon of lathander and hold undead as special abilities. If you further knowing how to do, adding turn undead to the same lvl as clerics.

    Such things are game breaking and fun breaking. The idea is to make valuable warrior within game mechanics and without using exploits or/and shdowkeeping. Another thing is that our main buff will be Righteous Magic - full damage from every hit.

  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 654
    I dont think it will be stronger than a cavalier, but whatever, not everybody like custom kit mods or scs.

  • SikorskySikorsky Member Posts: 366
    Danacm wrote: »
    I dont think it will be stronger than a cavalier, but whatever, not everybody like custom kit mods or scs.

    It’s not about powerbuilding. It’s about creating an interesting build in a different way that we used to. You can also say that fighter->Cleric will be better.

    P.S. I’m not so sure that Cavalier would take him down.
    P.S.2. I find custom kit mods overpowered.

  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 101
    Well, I'm sold. LG Priest of Tyr/Fighter pseudo-paladin added to my list of builds to try sometime. I'll probably run it in a party with both Sir Keldorn and Sir Anomen, for maximum paladin-ness.

    SikorskyRAM021
  • SikorskySikorsky Member Posts: 366
    jmerry wrote: »
    Well, I'm sold. LG Priest of Tyr/Fighter pseudo-paladin added to my list of builds to try sometime. I'll probably run it in a party with both Sir Keldorn and Sir Anomen, for maximum paladin-ness.

    Add Mazzy for even more paladin-ness B)

    RAM021
  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 101
    True - Mazzy is in. We need arcane magic and trapfinding/lockpicking, so Imoen fits there, and the sixth slot gets shuffled around. I love Jan for most parties, but there's no way this bunch would put up with his antics long-term.

  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 1,781
    Don't forget that you can also dual into a ranger of you are good.

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