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Saving Dorn and Neera on Legacy of Bhaal difficulty

I wanted to try to finish the game on the Legacy of Bhaal difficulty and also try out playing through the game with the new companions in my party so, to hit two birds with one stone, I decided to do them both in the same playthrough, but the problem is that both Neera and Dorn get absolutely gibbed pretty much immediately in their introductory events due to their persecutors being madly tough on LOB and Dorn and Neera being complete tossers. I'm completely out of ideas on how to save them and get them to my party so I can finish their personal quests and play through the game with them. Is it actually possible to do this? Can you guys give me some advice?

Comments

  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,273
    Dorn is a problem - it's hard enough keeping him alive playing on the Core setting so I imagine its virtually impossible on LoB. However, I thought Neera was unkillable until she has actually joined the party so you can actually let the wizard use up all his spells on her and then attack him when he has got nothing left to cast.

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,630
    you might have to grab them at higher levels so then you can start casting some better spells/ use better items

    remember, joinable characters match up with your team for XP in increments of 2000 to a max of 32000

    wands of paralyzation, spells of hold person/ blindness, charm person or even dire charm can help in those fights to make them much more bearable ( i believe thalantyr at high hedge - west of beregost sells wands of paralyzation, although bring some decent coin with you to buy them )

  • monicomonico Member Posts: 100
    edited October 7
    Saving others ? What a strange thought.

    I would agree that saving Dorn is significantly harder than Neera, since you can't prebuff and make strategic use of the terrain.

    What class are you playing ? What is your level and party composition thus far ?

    I think a wand of monster summoning could help in those case (in fact, this single wand can let you win almost all fights in BG1 LoB), if not to finish off the opponents, at least to aggro the enemies.
    Early wand of monster summoning can be found in the Valley of the Tombs map ( https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Valley_of_the_Tombs)

    Thoughts on Dorn:
    - have a mage or bard use Wand of Monster Summoning near the archers on the right side of the ambush
    - have a divine spellcaster cast Doom on Senjak (I think he is more of a threat than Dorotea)
    - have your best tank try and aggro Senjak and/or Dorotea's attention

    Thoughts on Neera:
    - the main problem, if I remember correctly, is that Neera tends to melee and aggro the 2 mercenaries... I think that they are the primary threat and should be taken care of first
    - you could try and use Algernon's cloak's charm on one of the mercenaries (enemies saves at -1 vs breath). If used by a kitted character (not a specialist mage though), you benefit from another -2 ST malus on top of that (the cloak's spell is listed as "specialist school : none", same as kitted characters).

    A few spells, still useful in LoB, that might help you make these encounters easier:
    - lvl 2 cleric "silence 15' radius", saves at -5 !!! the bane of enemy spellcasters (and allows some cheese if sent from outside of the fog of war, since silenced enemies don't trigger conversations). Word of caution, it is not party friendly. Should take care of that Thayan mage in Neera's encounter long enough for you to take care of his 2 henchmen. Can't remember if Dorotea also casts spells, would be useful against her too then.
    - I found that lvl 1 arcane spell "Blindness" is the most useful spell at this level (Spook has its uses too, with scaling ST malus but very short duration), even though there is no ST malus (unless cast by an Illusionist), once it hits, it's a win (enemy gets -4 AC and -4 thac0, and can't see you if you strike from further than range 1. Two-handed weapons have range 2). Casting Doom and later Greater Malison beforehand might be necessary on later foes though.
    - lvl 2 arcane "Web" remains useful until late BG2, especially if stacked in a Sequencer. Obviously, you need to find a way to not fall victim to your own webs though (in BG1 : you can pickpocket a Ring of Free Action from Dushai in Ulgoth's Beard with 60 or more pickpocket at any point in the game, and obviously you later get the Spider's Bane and a 2nd ring of free action on the last floor of the Iron Throne). Contradicts with Haste though.
    - "Hold" is a bit difficult to rely on, since the Priest version has no ST malus, and the Mage version only a +1 malus and is overshadowed by the next spell:
    - "Slow" is THE lvl3 arcane spell IMO: party-friendly, enemies saves at -4 (!!), very useful for strategic purposes, and enemies affected suffer from -4 AC and -4 thac0 malus ! Stacks with Blindness.

    Hope this helps

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 18,814
    Neera can't be killed during her encounter - that change was made, among other things, because of the LoB difficulty setting.

    Dorn being killable is a bug which will be fixed by the 2.6 patch.

  • monicomonico Member Posts: 100
    Neera can't be killed during her encounter - that change was made, among other things, because of the LoB difficulty setting.

    Dorn being killable is a bug which will be fixed by the 2.6 patch.

    So you're saying I have to wait for the Thayans mercenaries to die before I can backstab Neera to death and steal her stuff ? :smiley:

  • PingwinPingwin Member Posts: 193
    Satisfying as it is to kill her, I prefer to just use a mod to remove her entirely from the game and put her gembag into Feldepost's shop so you never even have to talk to her.

    monico
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,630
    monico wrote: »
    Saving others ? What a strange thought.

    I would agree that saving Dorn is significantly harder than Neera, since you can't prebuff and make strategic use of the terrain.

    What class are you playing ? What is your level and party composition thus far ?

    I think a wand of monster summoning could help in those case (in fact, this single wand can let you win almost all fights in BG1 LoB), if not to finish off the opponents, at least to aggro the enemies.
    Early wand of monster summoning can be found in the Valley of the Tombs map ( https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Valley_of_the_Tombs)

    Thoughts on Dorn:
    - have a mage or bard use Wand of Monster Summoning near the archers on the right side of the ambush
    - have a divine spellcaster cast Doom on Senjak (I think he is more of a threat than Dorotea)
    - have your best tank try and aggro Senjak and/or Dorotea's attention

    Thoughts on Neera:
    - the main problem, if I remember correctly, is that Neera tends to melee and aggro the 2 mercenaries... I think that they are the primary threat and should be taken care of first
    - you could try and use Algernon's cloak's charm on one of the mercenaries (enemies saves at -1 vs breath). If used by a kitted character (not a specialist mage though), you benefit from another -2 ST malus on top of that (the cloak's spell is listed as "specialist school : none", same as kitted characters).

    A few spells, still useful in LoB, that might help you make these encounters easier:
    - lvl 2 cleric "silence 15' radius", saves at -5 !!! the bane of enemy spellcasters (and allows some cheese if sent from outside of the fog of war, since silenced enemies don't trigger conversations). Word of caution, it is not party friendly. Should take care of that Thayan mage in Neera's encounter long enough for you to take care of his 2 henchmen. Can't remember if Dorotea also casts spells, would be useful against her too then.
    - I found that lvl 1 arcane spell "Blindness" is the most useful spell at this level (Spook has its uses too, with scaling ST malus but very short duration), even though there is no ST malus (unless cast by an Illusionist), once it hits, it's a win (enemy gets -4 AC and -4 thac0, and can't see you if you strike from further than range 1. Two-handed weapons have range 2). Casting Doom and later Greater Malison beforehand might be necessary on later foes though.
    - lvl 2 arcane "Web" remains useful until late BG2, especially if stacked in a Sequencer. Obviously, you need to find a way to not fall victim to your own webs though (in BG1 : you can pickpocket a Ring of Free Action from Dushai in Ulgoth's Beard with 60 or more pickpocket at any point in the game, and obviously you later get the Spider's Bane and a 2nd ring of free action on the last floor of the Iron Throne). Contradicts with Haste though.
    - "Hold" is a bit difficult to rely on, since the Priest version has no ST malus, and the Mage version only a +1 malus and is overshadowed by the next spell:
    - "Slow" is THE lvl3 arcane spell IMO: party-friendly, enemies saves at -4 (!!), very useful for strategic purposes, and enemies affected suffer from -4 AC and -4 thac0 malus ! Stacks with Blindness.

    Hope this helps

    there is a level 4 cleric spell called free action, which gives you the same benefits from the rings of free action

  • GhamarroGhamarro Member Posts: 55
    Neera can't be killed during her encounter - that change was made, among other things, because of the LoB difficulty setting.

    Dorn being killable is a bug which will be fixed by the 2.6 patch.

    I'm playing on the current patch, can't remember if I started the game on it, though, but I think i did since it has been around for a long time and I didn't start my game THAT long ago, and both Neera and Dorn are definitely killable in my game during their introductory scenes. They both die almost instantly when the encounter begins. Some bug mayhaps?

  • GhamarroGhamarro Member Posts: 55
    sarevok57 wrote: »
    you might have to grab them at higher levels so then you can start casting some better spells/ use better items

    remember, joinable characters match up with your team for XP in increments of 2000 to a max of 32000

    wands of paralyzation, spells of hold person/ blindness, charm person or even dire charm can help in those fights to make them much more bearable ( i believe thalantyr at high hedge - west of beregost sells wands of paralyzation, although bring some decent coin with you to buy them )

    Yeah, I'm definitely going to save them for later, until I hit the max level cap, preferrably, if I can solo myself up to that point. I think the early Wand of Monster Summoning would probably be my best bet to help me out with that, and after that the Wand of Paralyzation for sure but, like you said, that costs a lot of money at lower levels.

  • GhamarroGhamarro Member Posts: 55
    edited October 8
    Also forgot to mention that I'm playing a True Neutral Elf Wizard / Fighter multi-class. Wizard for the summoning spells, and other spell also, which are a great boon in LOB, and Fighter for the ability to use and put lots of skill points into longbows for decent ranged damage after using up all of my spells, and Elf for race because of the resist to charm and bonus THAC0 for longbows, and also longsowrds for later on when I get decent +3 of those in SOD and BG2. Yes, I'm planning on playing through the whole thing on LOB with the same character, importing it from the last part when I start a new one. =) I picked True Neutral for the awsome tanking familiar and also for the maximum range of companions that'll have me, and not scram due to my alignment.

  • GhamarroGhamarro Member Posts: 55
    edited October 8
    Ah, and one other thing I forgot to ask also is that who should I pick for the last available spot in my party for a maximum ease of non-cheesy LOB playthrough? Me, Neera, Dorn, Rashad, and Baeloth, that leaves one spot for a vanilla companion. I could really use a priest with the ring to give extra 5th spell slot to get lots of skelly summons, but sadly Branwen is a bit of a tosser when it comes to her low wisdom.

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,630
    Ghamarro wrote: »
    Ah, and one other thing I forgot to ask also is that who should I pick for the last available spot in my party for a maximum ease of non-cheesy LOB playthrough? Me, Neera, Dorn, Rashad, and Baeloth, that leaves one spot for a vanilla companion. I could really use a priest with the ring to give extra 5th spell slot to get lots of skelly summons, but sadly Branwen is a bit of a tosser when it comes to her low wisdom.

    actually in bg1 branwen is tied for for the highest wisdom of all clerics, i think kagain also has 16, but he will get less spells because he will only reach level 7 in cleric as apposed to branwen's level 8

    plus branwen has a couple new special abilities thanks to her class kit

  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 339
    Ghamarro wrote: »
    I could really use a priest with the ring to give extra 5th spell slot to get lots of skelly summons...
    Three problems with that. First, the ring doesn't give any fifth-level slots, just first through fourth. Second, clerics don't get fifth-level slots under the BG1 experience cap; only full druids do, and they don't get Animate Dead. Third, Animate Dead isn't a fifth-level cleric spell - it's third level for them.
    Oh, wait, you have SoD - that raises the experience cap so that clerics get fifth level slots. So then it's just two problems.

    Branwen's wisdom? She's at 16, which puts her tied with Faldorn and Yeslick for the highest wisdom among BG1 priests, or indeed any recruitable companions in the game (not including SoD). If you want higher wisdom than that, you'll have to either spend tomes or make your own.
    Also, don't try to take Yeslick with that party. He's incompatible with Dorn.

    monico
  • GhamarroGhamarro Member Posts: 55
    edited October 8
    jmerry wrote: »
    Ghamarro wrote: »
    I could really use a priest with the ring to give extra 5th spell slot to get lots of skelly summons...
    Three problems with that. First, the ring doesn't give any fifth-level slots, just first through fourth. Second, clerics don't get fifth-level slots under the BG1 experience cap; only full druids do, and they don't get Animate Dead. Third, Animate Dead isn't a fifth-level cleric spell - it's third level for them.
    Oh, wait, you have SoD - that raises the experience cap so that clerics get fifth level slots. So then it's just two problems.

    Branwen's wisdom? She's at 16, which puts her tied with Faldorn and Yeslick for the highest wisdom among BG1 priests, or indeed any recruitable companions in the game (not including SoD). If you want higher wisdom than that, you'll have to either spend tomes or make your own.
    Also, don't try to take Yeslick with that party. He's incompatible with Dorn.

    Ah sry I misremembered the ring buff. Anyways, my point with the ring was just to get another skelly summon, as summoned creatures are very useful in LOB.

  • GhamarroGhamarro Member Posts: 55
    edited October 8
    sarevok57 wrote: »
    Ghamarro wrote: »
    Ah, and one other thing I forgot to ask also is that who should I pick for the last available spot in my party for a maximum ease of non-cheesy LOB playthrough? Me, Neera, Dorn, Rashad, and Baeloth, that leaves one spot for a vanilla companion. I could really use a priest with the ring to give extra 5th spell slot to get lots of skelly summons, but sadly Branwen is a bit of a tosser when it comes to her low wisdom.

    actually in bg1 branwen is tied for for the highest wisdom of all clerics, i think kagain also has 16, but he will get less spells because he will only reach level 7 in cleric as apposed to branwen's level 8

    plus branwen has a couple new special abilities thanks to her class kit

    Branwen it is, then! =) Those skellies mad tough.

  • GhamarroGhamarro Member Posts: 55
    Is there anyone who would be more useful in a LOB playthrough than Branwen with the ring for the skelly summons and other awsome priestly chanennigans? Especially considering the party composition I'm going for, which is me being a Fighter/Wizard and having all the dlc npcs in my party.

  • NeverusedNeverused Member Posts: 696
    Tiax, since you also need a Thief in your party would probably be good, as well as a Ghast summon.

    Blackravenmonico
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,630
    Ghamarro wrote: »
    Is there anyone who would be more useful in a LOB playthrough than Branwen with the ring for the skelly summons and other awsome priestly chanennigans? Especially considering the party composition I'm going for, which is me being a Fighter/Wizard and having all the dlc npcs in my party.

    unless you bring along your own created cleric or figher/cleric then no

    or

    unless you want to try and use quayle, but you will have to wait until chapter 5 and again he is a multi-class so he won't be getting that many cleric spells, especially with that "AWESOME" 10 wisdom of his

  • GhamarroGhamarro Member Posts: 55
    Neverused wrote: »
    Tiax, since you also need a Thief in your party would probably be good, as well as a Ghast summon.

    Is the Ghast summon a unique innate ability of his or is it a cleric spell?

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,630
    Ghamarro wrote: »
    Neverused wrote: »
    Tiax, since you also need a Thief in your party would probably be good, as well as a Ghast summon.

    Is the Ghast summon a unique innate ability of his or is it a cleric spell?

    unique ability

  • GhamarroGhamarro Member Posts: 55
    sarevok57 wrote: »
    Ghamarro wrote: »
    Neverused wrote: »
    Tiax, since you also need a Thief in your party would probably be good, as well as a Ghast summon.

    Is the Ghast summon a unique innate ability of his or is it a cleric spell?

    unique ability

    Given that Tiax is a multi-class cleric and his wisdom is only 13, I'm guessing he won't have as many skellie summons as Branwen would? How does his Ghast compare up to regular ol' cleric skellies? Is it really worth the trade? Also, would opening locks and finding traps through magical means be a viable choice so that I could skip needing a Thief in my party altogether?

  • monicomonico Member Posts: 100
    edited October 9
    sarevok57 wrote: »
    there is a level 4 cleric spell called free action, which gives you the same benefits from the rings of free action

    True, but as it is a 4th level cleric spell, it is not available until (at least) 55k XP (and companions have, at the highest, 32k XP when joining you if I remember correctly).

    I did not mention the spell since the OP mentioned early encounters. Dushai's ring is available immediately after leaving Candlekeep with 60 in pickpocket (might need a potion for that), it is a big detour from normal playthrough though.


    About Tiax, I never used his special ability in LoB so I can't compare his summon with normal skellies. Should be better though (Ghasts are supposed to have a special ability that can Hold opponents, veeeery useful especially in LoB).
    Unless you have mods though, Tiax is only available very late, has only 13 Wisdom, and less spells/day.

    In fact, at lvl cap, without enhancments from gear/tomes:
    - Tiax (lvl7 cleric at max lvl) spells: 4/3/2/1
    - Branwen (lvl8): 5/5/3/2
    - Faldorn (lvl10): 6/6/3/3/2

    So, Tiax only has 1 less lvl3 spell, but gets his summon Ghast special ability, which more than makes up for it. Also has utility as a thief. But he won't cast many spells per day.

    Branwen's special ability (Spiritual Hammer) and two casts of Holy Power (lvl4 spell) from her Tempus kit can be seen as 3 more spell slots. And you also get her Chaos of Battle ability which, although random, can notably affect a battlefield. Stacks well with Chant.

    On a pure number of spells/day point of view, Faldorn owns any other divine spellcaster. And she also gets a nice special ability (summon Dread Wolf), powerful undead wolf with lots of immunities.
    Druidic spells are not the same as Cleric spells though, and lose out on the powerful Animate Dead spell (although, arguably, this spell is not as powerful in BG1 as it becomes in BG2), but have instead the Call Woodlands Beings which is very different, but very powerful.
    She gets lvl5 spells too (notably Chaotic commands, Ironskins, Pixie Dust, and the beautiful Insect Plague)


    So, if I'm not mistaken, your party would be like:
    - you, fighter/mage
    - Dorn (Blackguard)
    - Rasaad (Monk)
    - Neera (Wild mage)
    - Baeloth (Sorcerer)

    That's a lot of arcane power. You indeed need both Divine power and might use a thief. Tiax seems like a good compromise, although not shining in either classes. Until he becomes available, you will probably prefer Branwen as she is available immediately in Nashkell (I guess if you can wait for Faldorn, you can also wait for Tiax).

    ... Or you could not take Rasaad, who's a goody-two-shoes that doesn't mix well with the rest of the team, Neera excepted, and take Branwen and a thief (Montaron would be nice RP-wise, or Shar-Teel dualed to thief is even better).


    EDIT : you asked about the necessity of having a thief. You can detect traps with cleric spells (Rasaad as a monk can do the same), but you can't disarm them.
    Opening locks with the lvl2 arcane spell Knock is off course viable, and since you have so many spellcasters, it should not hinder you too much.

    But not disarming traps, especially in LoB, means that you need good metagaming knowledge on which traps are dangerous and who can trigger them without taking too much damage.

    Example: I know which traps have magic missiles (nashkell mines, thieve's maze for example), I always cast Shield (spell or amulet) before triggering them if I don't have thieves.
    For the traps that trigger Lightning Bolts (Bandit Camp, again the thieve's maze), I either rely on micro to avoid the bold (random), or simply cast Prot. from Lightning (lvl4 cleric, lvl5 mage) or gulp a Potion of Absorption. But I mostly play solo. If I have a party, I always have some kind of thief for convenience sake.

    So, you can do without one, but it is a bit of a hassle.

  • monicomonico Member Posts: 100
    edited October 9
    Sorry, double post, but I really think Tiax would fit well with that party since it covers your lack of priest and thief, and I was thinking that in SoD, his spot would immediately be filled by Glint for the same purposes (no special ability, but more spells with higher Wisdom), plus Glint is awesome and has lots of banters.

    In BG2 though, I don't know who to suggest, since there is no cleric/thief. I think a good cleric (Viconia, given the evil touch of your party) would be more important than a thief (Hexxat would come to mind if going the thief route, and she is also one of the new NPC from EE).

    Or, again, just ditch Rasaad and make an evil party with both Vicky and Hexxat >:)

  • monicomonico Member Posts: 100
    I just saved Dorn in LoB. It is indeed quite a hassle, and I had to reload a few times.

    I tried invoking monsters to aggro Senjak & Dorotea. They don't care and directly go for Dorn.
    I tried crowd control : with higher levels and saves, disabling the 2 of them takes time and Dorn only has 10 or so HP...

    I had to result to cheese : force-talk against one, while focusing fire on the other (with party & summons). Did not feel very satisfying...

    My party was at 32k XP already, and composed of:
    - Myself (scald)
    - Kagain
    - Shar-Teel (dualed to thief, armed with a bow)
    - Edwin
    - Viconia

    I don't see how a lvl1 party can do it without cheese in LoB. Fixing this to make him unkillable in patch 2.6 is indeed a good thing

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