Why AAA industry get away with DECLINING/dumbing down but smaller studios fails when dumb down their
SorcererV1ct0r
Member Posts: 2,176
in Off-Topic
TL;DR - Oblivion/Skyrim is extremely dumbed down compared to Morrowind or Daggerfall and sold much more. But when small studios do the same and for example, Dumb down Gothic mechanics to launch ArcaniA or made awful D&D adaptations like SCL, the studio generally fails miserably.
All AAA game companies are making each year, more dumbed down games. Compare Fallout 4 / Fallout 76 with earlier fallout games. They have no in depth ammo mechanics, on FNV, you could use all types of ammo, explosive and incendiary for .50 BMG, armor piercing, hollow point, dragon breath, etc; guns can "jam" depending the durability and on hardcore, survive in the desert was not trivial since you need to eat food/water and ammo weights. On elder scrolls, BUGthesda, removed spellcrafting, levitation, polearms(the most common type of weapon on history), dumbed down armor mechanics to a homogenized % based that makes no difference between a giant club or a mudcrab, just reduces the damage by percentage, added questmarkers, removed teleport and added fast travel, etc.
BioWare, look to pre DA:O RPG's from BioWare, Baldur's Gate, NWN, only good games. DA2 and DA:I looks like a generic cooldown based mmo with bullet sponge enemies. Look to Blizzard who also dumbed down a lot his diablo franchise, while on Diablo 1, you become better at casting firebolts by reading spellbooks and meeting the requirements to learn the spell, on Diablo 2 by investing points, on D3, you become better just by finding a bigger and sharper axe. Your char's DNA is 100% tied to his gear. No difference between 2 lv X guys of the same class without gear. And the result? Sold 30 Million copies.
A smaller studio who made a similar dumb down with Gothic, implementing cooldowns on rune magic that should't exist in the first place after starting events of Gothic 3, and gave no explanation, who removed all types of trainers(on Gothic 3, to learn ice lance for eg, you need to meet the spell requirement on ancient knowledge obtained by reading books and paying LP for instruction on AK from those who know AK, then meet someone, probably a druid or a water mage who knows and is willing to teach the spell for your then pay for the lessons, on Gothic 1, you need to convince Corristo, Saturas or the swamp camp guys to teach you magical circles, corristo will only accept you as a apprentice on mid of chap 2 if you are a member of old camp and purchase runes), they got rid of trainers, making you able to learn how to do stuff like pick locks on the fly, without any book or trainer to teach you and made a awful linear childish story. Result? "Following the release of Arcania: Fall of Setarrif, the game's developer, Spellbound Entertainment, filed for insolvency in March 2012" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Forest_Games
Sword Coast Legends also tried to streamline D&D experience, bringing bullet sponge enemies, cooldowns and other mechanics that nobody ever asked and the game flopped https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_Coast_Legends
Why when Blizzard dumb down Diablo franchise, it sells 30 millions and when a smaller studio does the same with Gothic franchise, the studio suffers?
Pathfinder Kingmaker, is a massive "incline" in relation to modern RPG's. And the result? Despite game journalists criticizing the game because "i can't kill a insect swarm with a axe, 0/10", the game sold well despite being a PC only title "The latest financial results for THQ Nordic show a dramatic increase in net sales(...)with the release of Dakar 18 and Pathfinder Kingmaker cited as key performers - even though the latter launched less than a week before the end of the quarter." https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2018-11-14-thq-nordics-net-sales-up-1-403-percent-to-usd139-5m
IMO PF:KM is the best modern RPG by far.
All AAA game companies are making each year, more dumbed down games. Compare Fallout 4 / Fallout 76 with earlier fallout games. They have no in depth ammo mechanics, on FNV, you could use all types of ammo, explosive and incendiary for .50 BMG, armor piercing, hollow point, dragon breath, etc; guns can "jam" depending the durability and on hardcore, survive in the desert was not trivial since you need to eat food/water and ammo weights. On elder scrolls, BUGthesda, removed spellcrafting, levitation, polearms(the most common type of weapon on history), dumbed down armor mechanics to a homogenized % based that makes no difference between a giant club or a mudcrab, just reduces the damage by percentage, added questmarkers, removed teleport and added fast travel, etc.
BioWare, look to pre DA:O RPG's from BioWare, Baldur's Gate, NWN, only good games. DA2 and DA:I looks like a generic cooldown based mmo with bullet sponge enemies. Look to Blizzard who also dumbed down a lot his diablo franchise, while on Diablo 1, you become better at casting firebolts by reading spellbooks and meeting the requirements to learn the spell, on Diablo 2 by investing points, on D3, you become better just by finding a bigger and sharper axe. Your char's DNA is 100% tied to his gear. No difference between 2 lv X guys of the same class without gear. And the result? Sold 30 Million copies.
A smaller studio who made a similar dumb down with Gothic, implementing cooldowns on rune magic that should't exist in the first place after starting events of Gothic 3, and gave no explanation, who removed all types of trainers(on Gothic 3, to learn ice lance for eg, you need to meet the spell requirement on ancient knowledge obtained by reading books and paying LP for instruction on AK from those who know AK, then meet someone, probably a druid or a water mage who knows and is willing to teach the spell for your then pay for the lessons, on Gothic 1, you need to convince Corristo, Saturas or the swamp camp guys to teach you magical circles, corristo will only accept you as a apprentice on mid of chap 2 if you are a member of old camp and purchase runes), they got rid of trainers, making you able to learn how to do stuff like pick locks on the fly, without any book or trainer to teach you and made a awful linear childish story. Result? "Following the release of Arcania: Fall of Setarrif, the game's developer, Spellbound Entertainment, filed for insolvency in March 2012" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Forest_Games
Sword Coast Legends also tried to streamline D&D experience, bringing bullet sponge enemies, cooldowns and other mechanics that nobody ever asked and the game flopped https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_Coast_Legends
Why when Blizzard dumb down Diablo franchise, it sells 30 millions and when a smaller studio does the same with Gothic franchise, the studio suffers?
Pathfinder Kingmaker, is a massive "incline" in relation to modern RPG's. And the result? Despite game journalists criticizing the game because "i can't kill a insect swarm with a axe, 0/10", the game sold well despite being a PC only title "The latest financial results for THQ Nordic show a dramatic increase in net sales(...)with the release of Dakar 18 and Pathfinder Kingmaker cited as key performers - even though the latter launched less than a week before the end of the quarter." https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2018-11-14-thq-nordics-net-sales-up-1-403-percent-to-usd139-5m
IMO PF:KM is the best modern RPG by far.
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Comments
Secondly, Oblivion is not THAT dumbed down. It did away with dice-rolls determining combat and made it real-time, and certain things are added like fast travel. But the guild quests are still excellent, there are still classes rather than a jack of all trades, and skills like hand to hand combat and acrobatics still exist. Skyrim I will grant you.
In regards to Gothic, I think you are vastly overstating how popular the first two titles were in the first place. They are highly-praised for their world-building, rightly so. The voice acting is straight-up laughable, the keyboard control scheme is flat-out ATROCIOUS, and Gothic 3 was unplayable for years before the fan patch.
Next, you are using Arcania as the measuring stick when all it is is a spin-off contracted out to another studio, when the true follow-up to the Gothic series is the Risen series. The first title is still highly praised, the last two not so much, but they have done well enough to be successful (likely far more successful than Gothic ever was). Their new title ELEX is also fairly well thought of. Piranha Bytes keeps churning out slightly better than average open-world games for an audience that can't get enough of that genre. It's what they do.
Lastly, on Kingmaker. Everyone praised it's depth as a CRPG. The problem it had is that it was completely unstable for MONTHS, and (let's get real here) it's basically a Master's course in RPG systems. It makes Baldur's Gate 2 look like Mario Paint. It's a very good game, but it a.) was not finished from a technical perspective on release and b.) it's really hard to penetrate. Also, Divinity: Original Sin 2 is the best modern RPG. Kingmaker is on the list of nominees, but it does't win.
Oblivion is. Examples?
Gothic 1/2 din't had atrocious controls. Is not hard to get used. In fact, i had more problem getting used to Daggerfall controls than G1/2. And G3, was the pubisher who forced then to launch the game one year before it was ready.
At first, was a ""sequel"", only got considered non canon after PB got his rights back.
I don't agree. DOS2 has a lot of awful mechanics. Cooldowns, wow-style itemization, range of bows limited to 13m...
developers spend lots of money ( well at least AAA devlopers ) on development and advertising and hyping, and to an extent "mind controlling" their audience
and i think its mostly the last point is what separates the demographic crowd
i feel that game companies these days don't let you experience games for themselves, they subliminally tell their audience what is fun and what isn't, and that; "this is how we do things in these current years and this is the best way to do it"
so the sheep crowd just go with it, and the developers keep feeding more dopamine receptors by making your characters do bigger numbers for damage or more outfits for your sprite/avatar ( or at least that is what it feels like )
so with that being said, we have some different crowds; crowd 1 being people like me and SorcererV1ct0r where we appreciate time effort, commitment, and love put into a game where the developer did their best to make a master piece with what they had, while crowd 2 the "sheep crowd" could care less because its not "mainstream" enough
also with that said there is no doubt many different crowds or demographics for their specific tastes and wants but its easiest to sell to the sheep crowd who keep spending money
so if the the sheep players who have been contaminated by AAA modernized mildew and are spending the most money for games, developers are going to stick with their formulas and sell to that crowd
now when it comes to smaller companies, they only thing they can offer is to produce the best games they can possibly muster regardless at what little they have, that is the only way they can compete, and plus they dont have the advertising resources to compete with AAA games, so that is their only edge
and then, if they think they can get "lazy" per se, and produce half ass gameplay mildew ( like the AAA companies ) then they are destined for scrutiny, because unless small companies produce master pieces no one knows they even exist or could care less because again they don't cater to the sheep crowd that well since the sheep crowd don't care how much love and passion that companies put into games
High budget titles can afford being dumb because in exchange they offer cinematic gameplay.
Indie titles without vast financial support can only offer gameplay, so if they dumb it down they lose the only selling point they had.
This is why I think Skyrim is a great game: You dont need to have 12 item slots and 50 skills to select from. You have enough itemization and skills to allow for a variety of nuanced game play options, and then you make the game fun.
At the end of the day, I think a game with a simpler system but is more fun to play is the superior gaming experience to something that is convoluted and less enjoyable.
The problem with Skyrim is simple. NOTHING HAS CONSEQUENCES. You can literally become the archmage with only novice level spell proeficiency. Can kill the emperor of Tanriel and join the Imperials. And the removal of attributes just homogenized the characters. They aren't homogenized like D3 or WoW but are extremely homogenized.
Skyrim as a action modding platform is a amazing game. As a RPG, is awful.
Anthem sucked, and people either didn't buy it or abandoned it. People did NOT feel the same way about Skyrim or Fallout 4. People clearly still found them to be worthwhile, especially on PC, where they are the most modded games of ALL-TIME. There is a very loud minority of people who can't stand Diablo 3, but, as you yourself mentioned, it sold 30 million frickin' copies, and I'm pretty sure not all of those people are brainwashed morons. The majority of them are just people who want to hop on and kill demons after work without having to feel like they are doing a calculus problem.
Is not a minority. I mean, look to USER reviews on metacritic(not game journalists), i would prefer if i could use a store who requires you to own the game to give a ratting like STEAM but D3 is only available on blizzard launch https://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/diablo-iii
And diablo 1 on gog is with good ratting. In fact, in fact, people crowdfunded Path of Exile to GGG exactly because was disappointed by D3... And with Tabletop games, nobody likes dumbing down with TTRPG. SEE 4e
Yep. I din't liked Tyranny exactly by it. I mean, has a amazing and unique story and lore, but mechanic wise, has much of mainstream modern rpg's on it...
I would really like to see Disco Elysium not share the fate of original PST and sold well. This studio is very promising and I would love to see more games from them.
Diablo 2 is better than Diablo 1. We also have a few comments and threads on the forum explaining how D3 improved over the years. From what I keep reading about D4, I see how the studio is reacting to all the D3 opinions.
There are a lot of reasons why SCL became what it is, and in no way that is an indication about other games.
I couldn't get into Pathfinder: Kingmaker, sorry. I have another recent RPG I consider my most favourite.
I don't agree with the idea shared in the OP at all. There are amazing games from the AAA industry, and these games arrive every year. The Witcher 3 is one of my most favourite games.
Read Dead Redemption 2 is a masterpiece as well.
Even in the games I didn't find overall amazing, I still could find fun and enjoyment. I enjoyed visuals and the feel of old Greece in Assassin's Creed: Odyssey.
Dragon Age: Inquisition still possesses my most favourite romance NPC and their story. I know the game has flaws but I got something that I enjoyed from it.
And there are amazing games from the indie industry.
And there are amazing games from middle companies.
And sometimes games from the indie industry and middle companies sell absolutely brilliant.
Just take into account that games take different amounts of money to create. So of course games created with different budgets target different sales.
As I have mentioned earlier, there is no need to seek absolute "evil" and "bad" in the industry. Some things are hard to accept, yes, like monetization. But it doesn't mean the whole industry, or its parts, are bad.
From what I have seen working in the industry, nowadays it's all mixed, and any game can influence other games, be it an indie or a AAA. Any game can become a game everyone is playing. And any game can fail. If a game belongs to a AAA category, or to a B category, or to indie, - that doesn't mean anything, really. Judge the game on its own. And people can have different approaches they use to judge the games.
It's easy to jump on the bandwagon of criticizing newer games when one is surrounded by peer support to do so, creating a sense of "not liking new games is the cool thing to do in this crowd," especially when I personally have not liked very many newer releases as much as you do.
But you remind me it's better to be as positive and encouraging as possible in all things, and not give in to the temptation to be bitter and hyper-critical about not liking something.
I have no issue with paying for downloadable extra content of quality for a fair price... but things like paying $20+ for a single model reskin for instance? Nah. There is absolutely no need for customers to tolerate this kind of greedy behavior. At all. ^ This. As far as 3D models and cinematic graphics are concerned anyway. Resources are always limited throughout the planning and development phases. Not few AAA's tend to prioritize looks over gameplay mechanics. This is especially true for those companies who want to have annual title lineups ready.
Though I found that indie developers tend to generally make better 2D game than larger studios - be it in art style or game mechanics. Both Undertale and Stardew Valley come to mind here. On the other hand it has to be said that Octopath Traveler was also a real gem amonst recent AAA titles for its sheer pixel art goodness.
For me, the mechanics should reflect the fictional world lore and story. I hate when you can revive the dead, except the dead who died in cutscenes for eg. What i love about Dark Souls is that a random ring says "boss X is blind?" in midd of many paragraphs? you can use that information in your favor.
Well, i strongly disagree that D2 is better than D1. End game gear on D2 is too OP, runewords trivialize any content, energy is useless unless you are a energy sorceress, etc.
D2 offers greater longevity. D1 greatest problem is that D1 is too short.
As for D3 improving, improved once JAy Wilson who implemented ALL awful D3 changes leavng the game industry. And only the itemization was ""fixed"" but as a side effect, a zimbabwe level of number inflation now exists on D3.
As for having fun with Skyrim/Oblivion, i also liked certain aspects, but when i needed 60 slashes to kill a Xivilai i just could't play more Oblivion. I never said that they are bad games, only bad RPG's.
common bandits with daedric armor makes zero sense.
But there are any modern AAA rpg or strategy game who is 1% of what Morrowind was?
Nah, Octopath is an overpriced pixelated indie garbage
I believe developers should be paid for their work. And I love the idea of games being in continued development. If a game I love gets more content, I'm happy to buy it.
But what I really miss though is game ownership. If most downloadable games were mine (client free, DRM free, and EULA/ToS free with obvious exceptions for online games that need to avoid hacking/cheating), I wouldn't mind games that kept building on and adding content. I mean, I bought Siege of Dragonspear, Darkness over Daggerford, and Tyrants of the Moonsea. But much of the content isn't really content so much as fluff you'll lose when servers go down or you uninstall the game. And speaking of not owning things. What really bothers me is when you buy a game on Google Play and too bad, the game you bought is no longer available for you to even play anymore (I had this happen with an offline game even).
I think there is a place for MMOs, microtransactions, etc. I've seen a few companies do it in a way that I felt was reasonable. But many just aren't. I feel like a lot of games are trying to get you to play them and only play them. I love RPGs, and I expect to get a lot of hours out of them. But I don't really want to get sucked into an MMO that feels like a 40 hour job that expects me to pay the hourly wages and do the work, and that I feel like I'm wasting time when I just want to go play a game that has an actual ending or is just fun to play for a short spurt. It's cool you made a huge world and all, but goodness, I'm not your slave or employer. Don't get me started on games like Q-Bert and Tomb of the Mask that have a subscription that'll cost you several hundred dollars for a dinky retro game, the gacha games you have to gamble to get good gear in, or the games that have several characters for purchase (also often using gacha mechanics) that'll cost you hundreds to thousands in the end to get them.
But I do agree with the sentiments that we shouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater, demonizing the current gaming industry as if all modern gaming is bad. It isn't. There's some great games and some great companies. I just wish the overall situation was better. And for that matter, I wish were were getting more new D&D RPGs instead of the MMOs, apps, and idle games we have been getting. In that sense I really agree that D&D games have been dumbed down for the most part compared to what I got in the 90s. Though it is looking like that may be picking up.
It's an extrodinary game. This article explains how it was allowed to come into creation:
https://www.polygon.com/2019/3/27/18281082/elder-scrolls-morrowind-oral-history-bethesda
I like Oblivion and Skyrim well enough (I use some portion of an ambient soundtrack to Oblivion to fall asleep multiple times a week), but they are no Morrowind. Very few RPGs are. Possibly only a handful.
For sure. But Skyrim gets almost as good as Morrowind when your mod list exceeds 150 like mine does. I really can not live without the spears + realistic spear animations and unarmed fighting ability. Otherwise it is very bland and repetitive and the only reason so many are so addicted is because we're all starving for fantasy RPG worlds of the open world variety like that imho.
Have you tried Beyond Skyrim or any of the associated mods yet? Some of them are incredible and i'm more excited of the completion of those than the next Elder Scrolls game, which I fear given the direction of the company atm.
Baldurs Gate 1 proved to me that you could definitely do an open world DnD game right. Totally a shame that this hasn't been attempted in the modern era yet.
Every time I mod Skyrim I feel like I just go totally overboard. The best ones I've found are the ones that alter the perks like Ordinator, and there are ones just like it that do it with Standing Stones, Shouts, Magic, etc etc. They are quite well done. There are major overhauls for vampires, for werewolves. There is even a mod called Undeath which is basically one long involved quest to become a Lich. Sadly, that one is not every stable. The "new land" mods that seem to get the most praise are stuff like Falskaar and Moonpath to Elsweyr. I haven't tried Beyond Skyrim because I don't have alot of interest in going back to the locations in Oblivion in a new engine.
The real gem is a total conversion called Enderal, which is free and even a totally separate install on Steam, you just need to own a copy of the Legendary Edition. It's impressive, but it's very "European" and by that I mean it's alot like Gothic, and it's pretty dark from the get-go. It also has performance issues native to the vanilla game that simply aren't present in the Special Edition.
I an not talking about dumbing down the character progression into a barbie dressing game, i an talking in stuff to use. Morrowind to Oblivion = No polearms, no levitation, no mark/recall, no spellmaking, no crossbows(...) Even games that aren't much dumbed down suffer from it. Compare how many magical effects exists on Gothic 1 with Risen1.
With all other types of software, newer versions most times offers way more options.
Alot of stuff has been pruned away from certain RPGs because it's essentially worthless. You could name at least a dozen spells in Baldur's Gate 1 & 2 that are only in the game because they are in the sourcebooks for 2nd Edition. And I don't object to it, even if only for the flavor text. But has anyone ever used Goodberry for anything??
in baldurs gate 2 they out right say not to put points into katanas. as there are barly any n the game so whats the point of having it being skill?
alot of people have issues with the skill trees in the latest avernum remakes. but when you look at it it's the same as it always was just the melee and range weapons are now a single skill instead of each weapon having it's own.
i'm fine with this as like i said i don't really feel all weapons need their own skill point. as alot are weaker then others and feel like a waste of a skill slot.
Yes, given that Goodberries are the only edible food in the IE's. I use them all the time as provision on the road. But that's more for immersion's sake. I actually enjoy having such “daily life magic“ in video games more than overpowered AoE spells. Especially if said video game has survival aspects to it: a stranded spellcaster in the wild who uses fire spells to lit up campfires and creates water for cooking? Yes please.
i also remember there being a quest which i think is from a mod that you need to use goodberries.