Making Illithid intelligence drain make sense.
Tresset
Member, Moderator Posts: 8,264
For a long time I have wanted to mod the illithids that appear in the BG games so that they do not drain intelligence from mindless/brainless creatures. I recently figured out a very simple way to make this happen and plan to start work on it soon. The problem is, I am not exactly sure what should be immune to the intelligence drain inflicted by their melee attacks. I know for sure things like undead, golems and other non living creatures should be immune, but it gets more tricky when it comes to things like elemental creatures, or even things with very different nervous systems (such as insects, spiders, or other invertebrates). I already have a good idea on what I think should be the correct thing to do, but I figured I would ask the community about it anyway, since someone may know more than me. Besides that, it may just be a fun topic to discuss!
Keep in mind that we are talking about the intelligence drain of the illithid's melee attack. I have no interest in altering their mind blast special ability at all. Also keep in mind that, even if I make a creature immune to the intelligence drain effect, the illithids will still be able to do normal physical damage with their weapons to that creature. I will try to make poll options as inclusive as possible, but there are limits to what I can do with the forum software.
Definitions I will use for this poll:
Mindless/Nonliving creatures: Undead, Golems, Dancing Swords, etc.
Brainless creatures: Creatures that have minds but not brains, such as Elementals, Slimes, Shambling Mounds, etc.
Invertebrate/Unusual creatures: Insects, Spiders, Otyugh, Mimics, Myconids, etc.
Large creatures: Creatures so large that an illithid may have a difficult time reaching their brain, such as Dragons, Giants, Etc.
The mod is now available here!
Keep in mind that we are talking about the intelligence drain of the illithid's melee attack. I have no interest in altering their mind blast special ability at all. Also keep in mind that, even if I make a creature immune to the intelligence drain effect, the illithids will still be able to do normal physical damage with their weapons to that creature. I will try to make poll options as inclusive as possible, but there are limits to what I can do with the forum software.
Definitions I will use for this poll:
Mindless/Nonliving creatures: Undead, Golems, Dancing Swords, etc.
Brainless creatures: Creatures that have minds but not brains, such as Elementals, Slimes, Shambling Mounds, etc.
Invertebrate/Unusual creatures: Insects, Spiders, Otyugh, Mimics, Myconids, etc.
Large creatures: Creatures so large that an illithid may have a difficult time reaching their brain, such as Dragons, Giants, Etc.
The mod is now available here!
- Making Illithid intelligence drain make sense.19 votes
- Make Only Mindless/Nonliving creatures immune.5.26%
- Make Mindless/Nonliving and Brainless creatures immune.31.58%
- Make Mindless/Nonliving, Brainless, and Invertebrate/Unusual creatures immune.5.26%
- Make Mindless/Nonliving, Brainless, and Large creatures immune.15.79%
- Make Mindless/Nonliving, Brainless, Invertebrate/Unusual, and Large creatures immune.21.05%
- None of the above/Some other option.21.05%
Post edited by Tresset on
4
Comments
Make Large Creature's immune unless they are helpless (stun/sleep/hold/etc...).
Argument against Invertebrate/Unusual creature:
I would expect illithids to encounter these types of creature more often than others, given they live underground/underdark, so I would expect them to have figured out the mechanics of most strange creatures by now.
@kjeron I thought of that too, but I have no idea how to implement this. Would you know a way? My plan was just to put a bunch of "Immunity to spell and message (324)" opcodes on the mindflay.itm weapon for each race/general I wanted to exclude from the effects.
Use rowB#:
NOT ( (Size <= 3) OR (BIT MATCH STATE_HELPLESS) )
==
Size > 3 AND NOT STATE_HELPLESS
Or, if you don't want to add new splprot entries: op318 blocks the EFF(new resource) if the target is helpless.
op177->324 blocks the effects of MINDFLAY if the target is large.
(new resource) cannot be MINDFLAY and should be unique.
You won't get the "Unaffected by effects of (source)" feedback though, unless you also create a ITM or SPL file (new resource) and give it a name. This ITM/SPL file would only exist to give the feedback string a "name" for the (source), it can otherwise be empty.
The MINDLFAY item's current name is just "Attack", so it may be better to use op318 in place of op324 and omit the feedback.
@Grond0 PfMW blocks magical weapons, not magical attacks. It's "magical" status is no different from a "Weapon +1". The effect is entirely non-magical - it is neither resist-able or dispel-able. The source of it's implementation is that once an illithid grabs a creature with all 4 tentacles, it rips their head open to eat their brain, killing them.
As I said I don't have a clear view on it. However, the implementation of the intelligence drain in Baldur's Gate isn't really an accurate reflection of 2nd edition lore. That required the illithid to either incapacitate a victim (through its mind blast attack) or by hitting in melee combat with all 4 tentacles - once that was done the brain could be quickly sucked out, though a single tentacle on its own hitting in melee combat would not be able to damage the brain.
If the intention were to model that type of attack I would agree that it would be reasonable to treat that as purely physical. Personally I would class intelligence drain as being the result of a magical rather than physical attack though (no physical damage, temporary effect, can be countered by magical means such as potions of genius). What I think is irrelevant though of course ...
It's your mod and you're free to do whatever of course. Lord knows I wouldn't know how to do any of this, but that's my stance on how the official lore should be interpreted at least.
and any way the damage and int drain should be permanent, at least until healed, as brains don't regrow in few turns.
as it seems that all the creatures, even golems, skeletons and other undeads, have some sort of intelligence, maybe based on an other physical substrate then a brain, i see the flyer attack as a direct drain of the intelligence, not necessarily a physical action on a brain or an other physical substrate.
just as the physical attacks with some weapons bring an elemental effect, without implying that that weapon is actually burning or very hot, you can carry the mace of detonation in your backpack without having it burning, i see the flyer attack bringing the drain directly to the intelligence, not to the physical organ that is the origin of that intelligence.
and this is only my very personal interpretation of the flyer's int drain, an interpretation that blocks the abuse of some summons that, if immune to the drain, would make the fights against flyers too easy. it is true that their attack does also some physical damage, but not much, not enough for the powerful beings that they are supposed to be.
almost immune summons would become a second shield of balduran, a second way to make the encounters with some of the most dangerous creatures too easy. imo the shield is enough in the game, even if i never use it i don't want to have it removed, as it is optional to use it, and i suggest to the not novice players to don't use it, while for the novices can be a life saver.
using a mod that makes some summons immune to the drain would compel me to not use those summons at all.
Yeah, illithids do eat brains, but when they do I don't think that's something you shake off in a couple hours. Even the mightiest barbarian warrior is gonna need more than a nap to recover after you remove his cerebral cortex with an ice cream scooper.
You fight lots of stuff that eats you or parts of you in one way or another in the trilogy, but for the most part it's assumed the feast begins after you're dead. You're not halfway through fighting that wolf and he's already digesting your liver or anything.
When they use their psionic abilities to drain your intelligence, I'm pretty sure that's no different from like the Ray of Enfeeblement reducing your strength through arcane means. It's just some magic nonsense sapping your abilities, but they've coloured up the lore with mental powers instead of like The Weave and such.
If the creature is mindless and thus has no intelligence score, then you shouldn't be able to drain its intelligence, in the same way that you shouldn't be able to cast Ray of Enfeeblement on a bar stool, but outside of that you're good.
even a golem, it is not a robot controlled at distance by the mage that create him, the sewer golem in chateau irenicus is a prove, he is not enough intelligent to be aware that you, and not irenicus, are the one that gives him the activation stone, but if he would have been mindless and controlled at distance you could never foul him.
and skeletons, even if you kill the mage that summon it the skeleton continues to fight and to react to the environment. they maybe have a rotten brain, or no brain at all, but they surely have some form of mind and of intelligence.
what about other undeads, hexxat is a prove that they have a mind, are intelligent beings, with their own agendas.
almost every creature in the game acts as if it has some kind of mind and a certain degree of intelligence, possibly the only exceptions are the slimes that seem to react to the environment more in the way an amoeba does.
I think the idea with the golems and the like is that they're like a computer. A set of commands complex enough that they can operate independently to a certain extent, but it's just all algorithms all the way down. There's nothing in there that could truly be considered a mind.
Vampires and liches and such are definitely thinking being. "Undead" is a pretty broad category. But some of it I'm pretty sure is supposed to be mindless.
I think the in-game mind flayer’s intelligence-draining attack is most elegantly interpreted as representing a preliminary stage of the mind flayer’s brain-eating behavior. Here’s how to imagine it: The FRWiki tells us that mind flayers attach their tentacles to a victim’s head and then physically suck out the victim’s brain. It does not, however, say anything about what might happen between the time the tentacles first latch onto the victim’s head and the time the mind flayer actually removes the victim’s brain via physical suction. Rather than assuming that each tentacle merely establishes a point of suction and that nothing else meaningful happens between these two times, we can imagine instead that each tentacle also sucks out a portion of the victim’s “psychic energy” (broadly construed). This psychic energy received through the tentacles is a kind of appetizer or predigestion, enjoyed before the mind flayer is ready to actually physically suck out and consume the brain.
Why does this make sense? First, let’s look at what we have to work with based on the in-game mechanics.
In-game, the mind flayer’s intelligence drain attack has the following characteristics: [1] requires physical contact between mind flayer and victim (must succeed with an attack roll at melee range; blocked by PfMW); [2] the physical attack is rapid (4 APR); [3] intelligence drain is flat rather than proportionate (5 INT per hit); [4] intelligence drain is temporary rather than permanent; [5] intelligence drain kills character if intelligence reaches 0.
Now here’s how we can match each of these mechanics up with the picture described above:
[1] The mind flayer’s tentacles are physical. But because the mind flayer is an extraplanar aberration steeped in psionic power, its tentacles have magical properties akin to those possessed by magical weapons. These tentacles are a part of the mind flayer’s body and so must be aimed at (and are subject to being dodged/deflected by) their victim’s body. The tentacles are relatively short, and so can only be deployed within melee range.
[2] A mind flayer has multiple tentacles, and so can attempt multiple attacks relatively quickly. If one assumes that an illithid can coordinate its tentacles without much difficulty, four attempted intelligence-draining attacks in six seconds at melee range is not implausible. Such a high attack density is less plausible if one imagines that the mind flayer is to deliver its intelligence-draining attack without the use of its tentacles, given that an unbuffed grandmaster fighter can only match that attack density while dual-wielding.
[3] Each tentacle consumes the psychic energy that causally supports mental activity, hence the intelligence drain. We can also imagine that each tentacle consumes its portion of psychic energy in a snake-like fashion, swallowing whole as much as it can at once, and then processing it over a relatively long period of time. Hence, the intelligence drain is represented in-game as both instantaneous and capped (one combat encounter is not long enough for each tentacle to “digest” the psychic energy it swallows in its first bite). The mind flayer’s tentacles are located on its face, close to its mouth, and so it seems more fitting that these tentacles perform the intelligence-drain function rather than another part of the body, such as the mind flayer’s hands.
[4] “Psychic energy” can be conceived of as a quantity that causally supports mental activity without being thereby conceived of as a fixed quantity. One can imagine, for example, that one of the primitive, foundational functions of the mind (again, broadly construed) is to naturally refresh and replenish its own psychic energy up to some natural internal limit (e.g., an individual’s pre-drain intelligence score).
[5] The caveat to the principle in [4] is that once every last drop of psychic energy has been depleted, the mind ceases all functions because the causal foundation for its action has been removed. Less abstractly stated, the mind “suffocates” to death, like a fish hauled onto dry land. Because at INT = 0, the causal foundation for mental activity has been ripped out, rather than merely disordered or suppressed, as by the “confusion” or “feeblemindedness” conditions, it is fitting that the game impose character death rather than allow any magical remedy (e.g., dispel magic, potion of clarity, cure disease).
So, if you have followed my theory this far, what does it all mean for what kinds of victims mind flayers should be able to target with their intelligence-draining attack in-game? It means that the answer depends on the mind flayer being able to pass, for any potential victim, two hurdles, the “compatibility problem” and the “accessibility problem.” The “compatibility problem” refers to whether the victim contains psychic energy of a kind that the tentacles are adapted to leech. The “accessibility” problem refers to whether the mind flayer’s tentacles can physically reach the repository of said energy.
Without diving really deep into the weeds, the questions posed by both of these problems are difficult to answer. I will try to make a few educated extrapolations based on the FRWiki identifying the mind flayer’s paradigmatic victim-type as humanoid. Let’s start with some basic facts distinguishing humanoids from other sorts of creatures: [1] The psychic energy humanoids possess intrinsically is sophisticated and complex, because it enables mental activity that is rational, sensory, and appetitive in nature; [2] Humanoid mental functioning, and therefore humanoid psychic energy, is connected (construed broadly) to the organic brain. Because the mind flayer latches its tentacles exclusively onto its victim’s head, this connection probably consists, at the least, in the spatial location of humanoid psychic energy in or around the brain; [3] The skull shielding the brain is a thick, solid layer composed primarily of collagen and calcium phosphate.
Here’s what I think we can extrapolate from each of these facts, if we assume mind flayers are specially adapted to feed upon their paradigmatic victims, i.e. humanoids:
[1] The mind flayer will have a compatibility problem with creatures who do not possess any psychic energy. Because psychic energy is the causal foundation of mental activity, such creatures have no minds; they are not intrinsically capable of reason, desire, or sensation. The actions of such creatures are not different in kind from the actions of machines, and any intelligence their actions appear to possess is wholly derivative of the intelligence of the controller/creature under whose command they act. Under this heading, here are examples of some creatures I would exclude from susceptibility to the mind flayer’s intelligence-draining attack: golems; certain “lesser” undead, like skeletons and skeleton warriors; dancing swords; a mage’s simulacra. Note: I do not believe undead are universally mindless creatures; vampires, liches, and demiliches do appear intrinsically capable of reason, desire, and sensation.
[2] The mind flayer may have both a compatibility problem and an accessibility problem with creatures lacking an organic brain. As for compatibility, if humanoid psychic energy is specially connected to the organic brain, then it is plausible that creatures lacking an organic brain may support/generate a kind of psychic energy fundamentally different from the kind that mind flayer tentacles are adapted to drain. As for accessibility, the mind flayer may not be able to latch its tentacles, with any meaningful effect, onto a creature whose psychic energy is spatially located outside of its body or whose body is incorporeal or lacking in functionally distinguishable physical parts. Under this heading, here are examples of some creatures I would exclude from susceptibility to the mind flayer’s intelligence-draining attack: liches; demiliches; elementals; djinn and efreeti; nishruu and hakeashar; slimes and oozes; mimics; shambling mounds; a mage’s wizard eye; a mage’s projected image. Note: The neural activities of spiders and worms are centralized in primitive brains, so spiders and carrion crawlers should be susceptible.
[3] The mind flayer will have an accessibility problem with creatures whose brains are shielded by material significantly more durable than human bone or whose heads are so large or so high that the mind flayer’s tentacles are not physically capable of reaching to where the creature’s psychic energy has coalesced. Mind flayers can levitate, but they cannot fly, and so to be vulnerable to the intelligence-draining attack, the victim’s head would need to be no higher than the sum of the mind flayer’s natural height, the length of its tentacles, and its maximum levitation height. My basic impression is creatures with heads that rise 15 feet or higher off the ground should be safe. The brains of creatures with giant heads, as well as brains protected by organic material significantly tougher than human bone, should also probably be safe. Under this heading, here are examples of some creatures I would exclude from susceptibility to the mind flayer’s intelligence-draining attack: giants; dragons; wyverns; ankhegs. Note: depending on what your beliefs are about the resilience of the skin and bone of fiendish and angelic beings, you may also consider immunizing glabrezu, cacofiends, pit fiends, devas, planetars, and solars.
I also voted for giant-size creatures to be immune for two reasons; the first is that the illithid probably would have trouble physically reaching the creature's head unless it can fly, and second is that depending on the creature in question, the skull might be SO large that even if the illithid can reach the creature's head, it physically still can't REACH the brain inside with its tentacles. These difficulties could be overcome given time and opportunity, but neither is likely to be present within a combat setting.
If you're talking about the Monster Manual, there is no reference to intelligence drain (as far as I know there is no reference to that anywhere in 2nd edition D&D). The entry says most mind flayers use magical powers, but refers to a sub-group that produce similar effects (like domination) using psionics.
Usually when they say something is "considered" to have a trait, they mean it operates as if it has that trait within some limited capacity.
Like when they say something is "considered" a +4 weapon, they mean it can hit opponents that can only be hit by +4 weapons, even if it doesn't have the combat bonuses typically associated with a +4 weapon.
I'd have to see the quote in full context, but it seems very possible to me that if its intelligence drain is considered psionic, that means it's effective against opponents that psionic abilities work on, maybe can be protected against by things that protect against psionic abilities, or something to that general effect.
@Chronicler; yes...that's why I concluded that it is actually neither. It wouldn't be "considered" a thing it would just be that thing. That's why I added the quotations. But otherwise it certainly indicates that psionic protections are effective while magical one's are ineffective or have lessened effect.
I think I am going to try doing things this way for my mod. This is an interesting debate, however, so keep it going! I may even make several versions of my mod for people with different tastes.
I have some things to add now.
About how this will change the challenge of the game: This is certainly true, but I hope this will change things for the better. Also, this sword definitely cuts both ways, seeing as the player can eventually shapeshift into an illithid and use the weapon themselves. I am, naturally, restricting the shapeshift version of the weapon in the same way as I am for the one the real illithids use.
About the psionics vs. physical trauma debate: I am mostly siding with the physical trauma people here. The game log itself says "Devour Brain" when an illithid hits a target. It doesn't say "Devour Psyche" or anything like that... BG is, and always was, a rough adaptation of 'true' AD&D rules, and not a direct implementation. This was likely the developer's way of adapting the fearsome talents of the illithid into a workable game mechanic. I know it makes no sense practically that they are snacking in mid fight, and especially that brain trauma wears off in a mere 5 rounds, but that is just how things were adapted for the game...
The mod is going to be ready soon. I just have to package it and upload it. I will link it here when I do. I will still be open to suggestions for improvement after doing this, however.
what about a jaheira transformed into a fire elemental or an aerie transformed into a slime, while protected by stoneskin + contingency with stoneskin at 50% health while 2 fireshields and blade barer are also active?
it is true that with that component a very high level mage transformed into a flyer can no more kill a dragon or an iron golem by int draining, but a mage of such levels has not any problem against them anyway.
RoV + AoP then improved alacrity and he can turn every magic resistance to 0 and kill with a barrage of low level spells really fast, usually before the golem or dragon can even start to react.
is not the offensive part of the int draining that really affects the balance of the game, is the defensive one, in a game that allow to anyone to turn into a slime with the cloak of the sewers, that allows to mages and druids to become immune at will with their spells, if a mage can no more turn himself into a flyer to kill dragons now he can turn himself into an iron golem and tank the flyers forever.
and those are only my 2 cents about the balance issues that this component brings, if there is a RP logic behind it is a completely different matter. The rp reasons brought here are certainly sound.
I don't think the problems inherent in the very idea of the mod are really relevant here.
If people don't want the mod, they just won't install it.
Like if you have some idea of how you could implement what the modder is going for here without running into those problems then that would be another matter, but your stance seems to be that this is just a fundamentally bad idea for a mod that shouldn't get made.
Polymorph/Shapeshift/Shapechange do not alter the GENERAL/RACE of the creature, so they will not become immune based on such. It's always been the burden of such abilities to provide any immunities the new form should grant (some do, some don't).
It does alter the creature's circle size though, so they could become immune based on that.
Vampires have a similar thing to illithids actually. They have a NASTY attack that can cause death very quickly, and it is hard to protect against. The difference is that there actually ARE a few protections against vampires, unlike illithids. In the base game (especially the vanilla base game) illithids could kill pretty much ANYTHING that existed, even plot characters that were never meant to be killed! That is a bit silly if you ask me.
i commented about the OP telling " I hope this will change things for the better" because before no one but me talked about those balance issues as the discussion was more about the game lore, while a component like this has balance issues.
my stance is not that the component is a bad idea, as good or bad depends completely on the player's taste, and i believe in the freedom of each player to play as he likes and have fun.
my purpose posting is only to point out the balance issues that using this component brings, how if it don't allows any more to use the shapeshifted flyer form to kill with int draining some creatures it allows many defensive options against the enemy flyers, both using summons to tank and poly morphing or shape shifting party members.
the example with aerie is probably the most effective one. have aerie aggro the flyers and watch them melt.
then, as long as the players are aware of it, if they decide to use the component for me is perfectly fine.
i already liked the post where the OP made the announcement of the introduction of the component in his mod, and by the way i was the first to do it.
i did it as i think that every mod is welcome as it gives to the players more freedom in customizing their game in the way they like it most.
i also think that having this component not affecting the party summons or the npcs poly morphed into immune forms would have no sense at all, it has been created because there are lore reasons for having those creatures immune and being them enemies, party summons or party members does not change anything about their "right to be immune". so i can not suggest any improvement to the component, at least not improvements that don't collide with the component reasons to exist.
I agree. This is, however, a bit harder to implement due to the way the infinity engine works. It is a bit beyond the scope of what I had planned for this mod. All I wanted to do was change two or three files, not overhaul the entire game!
(I also feel for @Grond0 who I believe got tagged by accident instead of @gorgonzola, and gets summoned every time we make a quote of that post...
at least it grants that the component gives less balance change issues, even if the way the mod is implemented does not match perfectly the reasons why it has been created.