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Cleric / Enchanter: Do specialist bonus apply?

Hello,
This is a practical question. I've created a cleric / enchanter via EEKeeper. First I created a regular cleric/mage and then I changed "base class" to "enchanter".

Do I get the +2 bonus/penalty to saving throws when using enchantment spells?

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Comments

  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 1,396
    Bonuses and drawbacks of a specialist mage as part of a multiclass:
    - You get the extra spell slots, though this is only updated after a level-up.
    - You get the improved chance to learn spells in your specialty and the reduced chance to learn outside your specialty.
    - You are unable to learn spells or use scrolls from your forbidden school.
    - You get +2 to your saves against your specialist school.
    - Enemies get -2 to saves against your spells in your specialty.

    Basically, everything works, with the exception of spell slots when you first modify the character.
    (Tested, with necromancers using Chill Touch to attack allies)

    JuliusBorisovMWO
  • Very_BigSwordVery_BigSword Member Posts: 205
    I made this same character type recently and it played very well. If you create a single class enchanter first and convert to cleric/mage multiclass in EE keeper it works better. All of your bonuses and penalties for both classes will be active immediately including specialist mage spell slot and cleric bonus spells from Wisdom. Also you will have the mage avatar that shows robes properly which is usually preferred. You do have to adjust hit points though. Pick your poison and enjoy!

    MWO
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 6,738
    Works well with Necromancer too. Penalty to enemy saves appliy to cleric death spells and there aren't any cleric illusion spells to lose that I can think of...

    BlackravenMWO
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,453
    when you are a specialist mage and have cleric levels you don't lose any cleric spells based on opposite schools, many a time i made gnome illusionist/clerics and when they get level 7 cleric spells finger of death is waiting there to be picked

    BlackravenBalrog99MWO
  • MWOMWO Member Posts: 214
    edited December 2020
    Thanks guys!

    To summarize, the bonus being an enchanter do apply even though i ”cheat” the multiclass using EEKeeper.

    When I look at the class description it doesnt recognize the enchanter class but really only speak about the class/mage but that might just be a limitation of the game?

    One thought though, how do I actually know that? Is there a way to playtest that you recommend?

    Cheers!

    Post edited by MWO on
  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 1,396
    Yes, all of the bonuses and penalties for being an enchanter apply. I was using just such a "cheated" character in my test.

    While only the gnome illusionist multiclasses get their specialization listed in their combined class name, the part of the character sheet that shows your levels will have the kit name there.

    My testing procedure for this? I created three characters - a necromancer, a fighter, and a fighter/mage. Edit the latter to have the necromancer kit, give the mages rings of wizardry (double L1 spells) and a bunch of XP, create and learn a bunch of necromancy scrolls. That part used the debug console, which I have enabled anyway - it's just too useful for fixing glitches. Rest at Winthrop, then take it outside to test on each other.

    For that testing, I used Chill Touch. It lasts a turn and applies to every attack made - 15 for the fighter/necromancer over its duration. Basically, multiple saves for each spell cast, and I had ten memorized. Make a stack of healing potions for the damage, and go.

    Fifty successful attacks against the fighter later, I hadn't seen a single save above 18 (In the options, you can show feedback such as attack rolls and successful saves). While that's technically possible without a penalty, it's unlikely enough that the 2-point specialist penalty is clearly there.
    As for the defensive half, the other necromancer attacked the fighter/necromancer with Chill Touch, and I saw a save of 19 early on. That would have been flat out impossible without a defensive bonus to cancel out the other mage's offensive bonus.

    Spell learning is something I've tested before (it's bugged), and didn't need to test more of here. Any arcane caster with a kit gets the 15% off-specialty penalty, while the 15% in-specialty bonus only works if that kit is actually a mage specialist. Also, everyone gets an extra 1% free.

    MWOJuliusBorisovGrond0
  • masteralephmasteraleph Member Posts: 136
    sarevok57 wrote: »
    when you are a specialist mage and have cleric levels you don't lose any cleric spells based on opposite schools, many a time i made gnome illusionist/clerics and when they get level 7 cleric spells finger of death is waiting there to be picked

    Yes, Illusionist|Cleric still gets the necromancy stuff for Cleric- Animate Dead, in particular, is still available to them.

    sarevok57
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 5,247
    edited December 2020
    If you create a single class enchanter first and convert to cleric/mage multiclass in EE keeper it works better. All of your bonuses and penalties for both classes will be active immediately including specialist mage spell slot and cleric bonus spells from Wisdom. Also you will have the mage avatar that shows robes properly which is usually preferred. You do have to adjust hit points though. Pick your poison and enjoy!

    I haven't really played or keepered in a long time, but a "trick" I learned that had the same effect as @very_bigsword mentions but different method was to set the character at level 0/0 after editing and then saving. When you boot up the game and load the cheated char you level up to 1/1 and all kit effects used to be applied correctly. Though in my case I had to revise the HP at times because HP for level 1 was counted twice, if I recall correctly.

    JuliusBorisov
  • MWOMWO Member Posts: 214
    Thanks for your comments guys!

    I've also noticed that using the EEKeeper creating a priest of talos / mage, you still get extra wizard spells as if you are a specialist mage. Do anyone know about that? I suspect it has something to do with removing the base class, but I wonder whether or not any penalties applies due to it?

    Thanks!

  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 1,396
    That would be a game engine bug. Some of the specialist class features work based on "does this character have a kit?" rather than "does this character have this particular kit?". While I don't have any proof, I suspect this is a very old bug that has propagated through many versions of the game. After all, back in original BG1, specialist mages were the only kits.

    JuliusBorisovSkatan
  • MaurvirMaurvir Member Posts: 922
    I'm not sure I would classify it as a bug when the only way to trigger it is to use EEkeeper to create an "illegal" class. The game isn't generally expecting that.

  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 1,396
    The extra spell slots ... OK, that's something you can't get wrong without an "illegal" class. A wrong-kitted single-class mage, a multiclass mage with a kit on the non-mage side, a dual-class mage with a kit on the second class. It does make things more difficult for modders playing with multiclass kits or the like.

    The spell learning penalty? That one's really easy to get wrong, to the point that it affects multiple standard NPCs. Haer'Dalis, Imoen, and Neera all suffer it incorrectly.

  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,207
    Maurvir wrote: »
    I'm not sure I would classify it as a bug when the only way to trigger it is to use EEkeeper to create an "illegal" class. The game isn't generally expecting that.
    Gnomes always result in a specialist (Illusionist) Multiclass, so the game should be expecting it, ever since the original BG1.

  • masteralephmasteraleph Member Posts: 136
    kjeron wrote: »
    Gnomes always result in a specialist (Illusionist) Multiclass, so the game should be expecting it, ever since the original BG1.

    Yes, and Gnomes are supposed to get the extra spell slot because they are Illusionists and not normal mages, and they do. The problem is that the devs figured the only way to get a kit on a multiclass Mage was as an Illusionist/X, so rolling up and EEKeepering a Mage/Kitted Class still results in an extra spell slot.

    Grond0Balrog99
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