Is stacking ammo damage with Gesen bow damage intended?

boof

Seems like it's something that would've been fixed with EE if it wasn't intended.
Then again seems unintuitive going off of the weapon description and just being way too strong.
Anyway, was just wondering. I like to play on the less exploitative/cheesy side, but was a bit torn on this one.

Lord_Tansheron

I believe this is unintended. Used to be a thing you could do in vanilla BG2 but IIRC they fixed that in the EE so launcher that don't require ammo can't use ammo even if you want to.

I remember Firetooth crossbow + non-magical bolts to get fire damage through mages with Protection from Magic Weapons - fun times in the olden days.

boof

Lord_Tansheron wrote: »

I believe this is unintended. Used to be a thing you could do in vanilla BG2 but IIRC they fixed that in the EE so launcher that don't require ammo can't use ammo even if you want to.

I remember Firetooth crossbow + non-magical bolts to get fire damage through mages with Protection from Magic Weapons - fun times in the olden days.

This is not fixed in EE though. That's what I was saying in the OP, that if it wasn't intended that it seemed like it's something that would've been long fixed by now.

jmerry

Exactly. Any weapon that has both a "ranged" and a "launcher" ability is subject to this; Gesen Bow, Tansheron's Bow, Firetooth, Sling of Seeking, Sling of Everard. But not Catti-Brie's clone of Tansheron' Bow; that one can't launch normal ammo.

boof

jmerry wrote: »

Exactly. Any weapon that has both a "ranged" and a "launcher" ability is subject to this; Gesen Bow, Tansheron's Bow, Firetooth, Sling of Seeking, Sling of Everard. But not Catti-Brie's clone of Tansheron' Bow; that one can't launch normal ammo.

Sooooo.... not intended then?

masteraleph

It is probably a bug, but also a bug that was introduced in the original games and that has never been fixed. It is also possible that devs have left it alone because it is one of the few things that helps keep up ranged attackers later in the game, where their effectiveness drops off significantly relative to melee folks.

sarevok57

do you mean if you use the gesen bow and magical arrows at the same time, should the damage stack? i would say the answer is yes, in fact, one of those phantom weapons ( either the sling of evard or the Tansheron's Bow specifically states do not use normal ammunition with this launcher or else it will fire as if its a +0 weapon )

in ToB if i have the gesen bow i always use arrows +3 with it, especially if i am using characters like Jan or Imoen, having an extra +3 to hit helps their garbage to hit

even if you stack it with arrows of acid, the thing you need to realize is that those arrows hit as if they are +1 weapons, so some of the stronger enemies in the game will be immune anyway

so i say stack away, if it wasn't intended they why give a warning to say not use non magical ammo?

Ammar

Looking at the description of Gesen bow and Firetooth it is pretty clear for those items that the auto-created ammunition is used instead of your own arrows/bolts. It's also clear that the auto-created projectile is what causes the elemental damage, e.g. for Gesen: "firing spears of lightning instead of arrows".

So for those it should not stack according to the description.

You can argue about whether it's the implementation or the description that is in error here. But you can't argue that there isn't an inconsistency.

Tansheron's bow says that if you equip normal weapons it will fire them instead of the special auto-created arrows. So it is the same here. But given that the arrows from that bow are not that special, it is less of a big deal here.

For the sling the description is not really helpful.

kjeron

A good fix would require changes to the code(engine), not just the content(item).

You could easily split them right now, but you would be unable to ready to the launcher's ammo without real ammo equipped as well. And even then the only way to select the launcher's ammo would be right-clicking on it and selecting that ability, because it would always default to the real ammo.
I've a mod here that uses another method to fix it while avoiding that issue.

Aerakar

I am ok with the ammo stacking for these launchers remaining unchanged. As noted above by @masteraleph it helps make them more competitive versus the later melee weapons, plus it's always been like this in the game.

And since the EEs never addressed it after almost 10 years, I don't see it changing now without mods.

boof

sarevok57 wrote: »

even if you stack it with arrows of acid, the thing you need to realize is that those arrows hit as if they are +1 weapons, so some of the stronger enemies in the game will be immune anyway

That's largely overcome with the enchant weapon spell with the enhanced edition. You could argue that that was the balance decision back in classic maybe, trade off damage for enchantment level?
One particular thing that sticks out to me is that there is no longbow/composite bow variant of these phantom ammo weapons. If it was a conscious decision by the devs to include overpowering, best in slot weapon selections due to damage stacking for shortbows and crossbows, then surely a longbow variant would've been made as well. Why ever use longbows otherwise?

Ammar wrote: »

You can argue about whether it's the implementation or the description that is in error here.

Yeah trying to argue this would be pretty pointless, but personally I'm happy to go with the description, and the descriptions always preface the stats and effects with something like "When no bolts/arrows/ammo are equipped", then it lists the magical ammo's damage and effects. Going by description, I can't mental gymnastics my way into believing those effects are meant to apply to loaded ammo.

kjeron wrote: »

A good fix would require changes to the code(engine), not just the content(item).

I've a mod here that uses another method to fix it while avoiding that issue.

Oh nice dude. This works with the latest versions of the game? Where would you stick this in a load order generally?
I might get this on a future playthrough, for now I can just swap weapons in and out based on need.

Aerakar wrote: »

I am ok with the ammo stacking for these launchers remaining unchanged. As noted above by @masteraleph it helps make them more competitive versus the later melee weapons, plus it's always been like this in the game.

And since the EEs never addressed it after almost 10 years, I don't see it changing now without mods.

That's fine. I'm not crusading for a change. I just like to police my own gameplay and not exploit, and most of the time that line is clear.

Ammar

I agree with it not being something that needs to be fixed, since it's not something you would run into by accident. It is easy enough to avoid the bug/exploit (whatever you want to call it) if you don't want to use it. Personally, I find things like the Faketalk exploit more annoying since I rarely trigger it without wanting too.

And yeah, the chance of it getting fixed is low in any case, though some of the decisions in the past have surprised me, like when they nerfed Sleep for a while.

jmerry

The rebalancing idea I've toyed with in my head is adding damage to other magical bows; generally, +1 per enchantment level as in BG1. The auto-ammo bows wouldn't get any additional bonus. And also making +3 arrows available in the later parts of the SoA campaign, with +4 arrows in ToB.

Not sure what the right point on crossbows is with this system, as they already get the bonus damage.