@Callimachus Not that I remember in 2e. In 3e, in the Magic Item Compendium book, there is a brief mention of a mortal Priestess who was supposedly the lover of Llira, murdered by Loviatar, and some of her worshippers, the Mummers in Red, go out and kill worshippers of Loviatar using Harmonic Chimes of Agony. The Priestess' name is given as Chianna Asjros, and she was High Revelmistress of Selgaunt.
@Shandyr Most half-orcs seem to come from the rape of human women by Orcs, and a few from the rape of female Orcs by male humans. This isn't to say some don't come from the intermarriage of two half orcs, but most Orcs are evil, cruel and brutish, and most humans don't want anything to do with them sexually. There certainly might be some... situations where an Orc and a human consort willingly, but I suspect those would be few and far between.
As for how evil characters see love, some see it as a tool to exploit their "beloved". The evil character takes and the beloved must always give. Some use "love" as a means of power and control. But for many of them I doubt they could have anything that most people would consider "real" love, because they wouldn't sacrifice for their "love", but would expect their love to sacrifice anything and everything for them. I tend to think people who are truly evil would scoff and scorn "love", viewing it as a weakness they are too smart, too powerful and too aware to ever fall prey to.
@LadyRhian OK I just checked my books, and it's mentioned in Faiths and Pantheons as well, also, it says there that the affair started during the Time of Troubles, so while F&P is a 3rd ed. source, the affair (or at least its start) precedes the events of BG.
@LadyRhian: Truth be told, I've always considered that the greatest weakness of the D&D alignment system: rather than treat it as loose guidelines for characterization, too many writers tend to treat it as shorthand - if a character is Neutral Evil, their personality will never develop beyond the framework of that category. And the end result is flatter, less-developed characters IMO - isn't it more interesting when a self-absorbed Neutral Evil character falls in love, or when a Chaotic Neutral anarchist has a deep-seated hatred of slavery?
@Shawne Characters can indeed change alignment, and being, say, Evil, doesn't mean you have to be *for* every evil thing. In the female Romance thread, I created a Lawful Evil priestess of Loviatar who abhors physical and mental child abuse because she was abused as a child. The best outcome for an evil person in love is that the person he or she loves becomes his or her "second in command", the King-consort or Queen to their being in charge. The person to rule at their side and raise their evil little blackguards (children, not necessarily the class) together. But even as we see with Sarevok, when Tamoko questioned him wanting to become a God and leave her, he threw her over for another fairly quickly. I am assuming a Lawful Evil character would at least stick by their lover/spouse, or seek a divorce if such is allowed under the law (because they use the law to their own advantage).
Sexuality is such a boring topic. I really couldn't care less and don't understand why anyone does during this day and age. You're bi, gay, straight, screw everything that walks? Great! Now can we get along with our quest please?
I'm with ya. People are just sex-obsessed that's all. Part of being human.
Sex obsessed? Why, yes we are. Sex is how the world goes round, and how the next generation is born. Have a problem with that? Have fun watching your family line die.
Sexuality is such a boring topic. I really couldn't care less and don't understand why anyone does during this day and age. You're bi, gay, straight, screw everything that walks? Great! Now can we get along with our quest please?
I'm with ya. People are just sex-obsessed that's all. Part of being human.
Sex obsessed? Why, yes we are. Sex is how the world goes round, and how the next generation is born. Have a problem with that? Have fun watching your family line die.
So humans should just breed like rabbits instead? The world's already overpopulated as it is.
I agree. However, that was, about eight pages back when this last had to happen, but, still, I agree. So many people are touchy about the issue of being "Gay". But really, think about it. Gay means happy, right?
<-------- Heterosexual
<-------- Christian
<-------- Semi-Conservative
<-------- Some of my best friends are gay.
Why should the Realms be different from real life?
Because of how this browser is oriented on my phone, you have just stated that Samsung is a semi-conservative, heterosexual Christian who has some gay best friends :P ^this was completely relevant to this discussion
Sexuality is such a boring topic. I really couldn't care less and don't understand why anyone does during this day and age. You're bi, gay, straight, screw everything that walks? Great! Now can we get along with our quest please?
I'm with ya. People are just sex-obsessed that's all. Part of being human.
Sex obsessed? Why, yes we are. Sex is how the world goes round, and how the next generation is born. Have a problem with that? Have fun watching your family line die.
@Adanu Nice way to automatically jump to the conclusion that my comment was negative, twit. It was a statement of the obvious/factual, not some sort of complaint against the world.
This is just a friendly reminder that the site now has rules, one of which is "respect each other". I'm seeing a lot of mudslinging going on in this thread, which is unfortunate, because I happen to know for a fact that you're all awesome people otherwise.
@LadyRhian: See, that's still giving me a feeling of generalization - sure, Sarevok abandoned Tamoko, but Korgan is Chaotic Evil too and that doesn't stop him from being smitten with Mazzy or forming bizarre friendships with Aerie and Imoen. Viconia is Neutral Evil, but the whole point of her storyline is that there were lines she was unwilling to cross in pursuit of personal power. It's so much more interesting IMO when characters exhibit certain traits that defy or outright contradict their alignment (without actually changing alignment, because that just shifts them from one category to another).
With the introduction of Dorn, a GLBT character has been added to the BG canon. Spellhold Studios already added some non-canon GLBT companions to pre BGEE 1&2: Chloe (lesbian), Faren (bisexual), and Nathaniel (gay). It's nice to see yourself represented, even if you don't care about romancing pixels. I want to give credit to Overhaul Games for updating the canon to include us, but also wonder what the community thinks.
Do you think Overhaul Games should add more GLBT companions for BG2EE? Do you think paper dolls shouldn't be same-sexable and the notion is imported from recent RPGs such as Dragon Age? Do you think Dorn is politically easy and an unconscious comment about bisexuality being 'Evil' or politically nuanced and indicative of diversity in fantasy morality?
I like that romances period have been added to BG1. The orientation has nothing to do with it. But I'm glad that they chose to be inclusive about it. Personally I would have made all three 'Herosexual.'
I think it's good to see. I'd like to see more bi love interests added (by later DLC or in BG2) so that Dorn isn't the ONLY same-sex romance option, but I actually think it's refreshingly un-cliched that they went with the half-orc Blackguard as the first bi option.
As a woman who was frustrated by only having Anomen to romance when BG2 was first released, more choices are always good. (Even though I am a weirdo who really likes Anomen.)
I love it! Having no gay/bi characters feels a bit unrealistic, imo.
I don't think that choosing Dorn is indicative of some unconscious bias, I really don't. He is unrepentingly evil, but his sexuality isn't a facet of that, which is progress. Having a character simply be LGBTQ without it being really that big of a deal is refreshing. He's bi and evil, and the two qualities are not conflated. After all, LGBTQ characters should be able to be evil.
He is cast as an archetypal outsider by race, arguably subhuman. Generally the non-human races aren't seen as being below human in the FR setting, but half-orcs are the exception. This may be a way for the writers to deal with the issue of society's reluctance to accept LGBTQs by proxy, instead of ignoring it all together. Regardless, Dorn the character isn't determined by who he is (LGBTQ, Half-Orc), but what he does.
This doesn't trouble me because of the way his dialogue is executed. He may be unrepentingly evil, but he's pretty well written. I put him above Rasaad, though I liked Neera more, personally.
On the flip-side, Dorn is hyper-masculine, the strongest party character in the entire saga; a refutation of other unpalatable sterotypes. He is probably the best NPC in BG1, certainly stats-wise.
On the whole, I think Overhaul treated the issue responsibly, and executed it well.
Do you think Dorn is politically easy and an unconscious comment about bisexuality being 'Evil' or politically nuanced and indicative of diversity in fantasy morality?
No, no, no, no, no, and no. He's evil and happens to be bisexual, and it's as simple as that.
Look, everything that has to be said about LGBT characters in gaming (hell, in media as a whole) has probably already been said, and yeah, I'm all for it. But the worst thing anyone could do while including LGBT characters is making every single one a perfect role model without any major character flaws for fear of people thinking you're prejudiced otherwise. All that does is make for boring characters under the pretense of increasing diversity.
I like inclusive. But it will be a bold day when a CRPG is able to take a step back and tackle the more complex issues underpinning the fantasy world's possibly not-so-sanitized morality with respect to sexuality. (This same argument could be made about a number of serious issues that we tread lightly or skip entirely in these games, of course. And honestly, I like my comfort zone. I don't know if I want to play a more serious, deeper game. )
I think BG:EE already took one bold step by allowing its NPCs to give the dwarf some luvin'. The dwarf needed it. Boots need knockin', beards need tanglin'! But this is only one step. When the game provides the necessary NPCs to allow a dwarf protagonist to fill out all slots with a complex weave of loves and lives knowing all manner of pairing across and betwixt all races and genders, and then rustle up the entire party and head off to Silverymoon to get Sune's blessing at Dawndancer House…
I know, I know, some of the naysayers are now seeing this as confirmation that we endorse human-giant miniature space hamster love. *sigh*
I want more romances period, but, speaking as a gay dude, I would be lying if I said I didn't want more options for myself that aren't quite so, uh, evil.
Comments
As for how evil characters see love, some see it as a tool to exploit their "beloved". The evil character takes and the beloved must always give. Some use "love" as a means of power and control. But for many of them I doubt they could have anything that most people would consider "real" love, because they wouldn't sacrifice for their "love", but would expect their love to sacrifice anything and everything for them. I tend to think people who are truly evil would scoff and scorn "love", viewing it as a weakness they are too smart, too powerful and too aware to ever fall prey to.
Grammar says R we. Actually, it says, "Are We", but, meh.
I agree. However, that was, about eight pages back when this last had to happen, but, still, I agree. So many people are touchy about the issue of being "Gay". But really, think about it. Gay means happy, right?
<-------- Heterosexual
<-------- Christian
<-------- Semi-Conservative
<-------- Some of my best friends are gay.
Why should the Realms be different from real life?
^this was completely relevant to this discussion
Do you think Overhaul Games should add more GLBT companions for BG2EE? Do you think paper dolls shouldn't be same-sexable and the notion is imported from recent RPGs such as Dragon Age? Do you think Dorn is politically easy and an unconscious comment about bisexuality being 'Evil' or politically nuanced and indicative of diversity in fantasy morality?
As a woman who was frustrated by only having Anomen to romance when BG2 was first released, more choices are always good. (Even though I am a weirdo who really likes Anomen.)
I don't think that choosing Dorn is indicative of some unconscious bias, I really don't. He is unrepentingly evil, but his sexuality isn't a facet of that, which is progress. Having a character simply be LGBTQ without it being really that big of a deal is refreshing. He's bi and evil, and the two qualities are not conflated. After all, LGBTQ characters should be able to be evil.
He is cast as an archetypal outsider by race, arguably subhuman. Generally the non-human races aren't seen as being below human in the FR setting, but half-orcs are the exception. This may be a way for the writers to deal with the issue of society's reluctance to accept LGBTQs by proxy, instead of ignoring it all together. Regardless, Dorn the character isn't determined by who he is (LGBTQ, Half-Orc), but what he does.
This doesn't trouble me because of the way his dialogue is executed. He may be unrepentingly evil, but he's pretty well written. I put him above Rasaad, though I liked Neera more, personally.
On the flip-side, Dorn is hyper-masculine, the strongest party character in the entire saga; a refutation of other unpalatable sterotypes. He is probably the best NPC in BG1, certainly stats-wise.
On the whole, I think Overhaul treated the issue responsibly, and executed it well.
Look, everything that has to be said about LGBT characters in gaming (hell, in media as a whole) has probably already been said, and yeah, I'm all for it. But the worst thing anyone could do while including LGBT characters is making every single one a perfect role model without any major character flaws for fear of people thinking you're prejudiced otherwise. All that does is make for boring characters under the pretense of increasing diversity.
I think BG:EE already took one bold step by allowing its NPCs to give the dwarf some luvin'. The dwarf needed it. Boots need knockin', beards need tanglin'! But this is only one step. When the game provides the necessary NPCs to allow a dwarf protagonist to fill out all slots with a complex weave of loves and lives knowing all manner of pairing across and betwixt all races and genders, and then rustle up the entire party and head off to Silverymoon to get Sune's blessing at Dawndancer House…
I know, I know, some of the naysayers are now seeing this as confirmation that we endorse human-giant miniature space hamster love. *sigh*
*stumbles off soapbox and finds a good tavern*