I was actually aware of that, but I was to vague in my post. Sorry
I saw the cordinated info from the moderators and noted CamDawgs say on the matter on the G3 forum back then.
On this site the following is decreed: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/70519/roxanne
Thats a lot of alts… We had the merriest time in the following weeks. Everyone suspected each other of being alts. It was like Among U’s!- oh the good times…
I am glad you laughed @jastey.
I did fear that it was too soon for jokes…. As I see it you have plenty of things to be mad at Roxanne about, espicially the whole Baldurans Seatower (another IP theft or at least handling of stolen goods), besides the “alt situation” on G3; so I am glad you can be civil about it
I know plenty of people see red when her name or project is mentioned - and sadly with very good reason. Perhaps one day we can all laugh about it; or even better welcome her back. It would require very much restoration work from her hand and a lot of forgivness from the community. But one can hope
At G3, as far as we could tell, there was indeed only Roxanne.
EDIT: I feel the urge to point out that this was not the only reason our Poobah didn't ban her - we like being able to talk to people, and experience shows they just take their issues elsewhere. EDIT2: didn't prevent Roxanne from never logging into G3 again, lol.
Necroposting (badly!) but I'd like to clear up Roxanne's 'stolen work' for her version of Balduran's Seatower. Those area assets were done by me and used by her without my permission. Permission was given to Jastey for development and use, but no-one else. I passed the link to the archive through an SHS post that made the recipient very clear and that is where the assets were stolen. Roxanne even had the barefaced cheek to start a thread asking for my help!
Of the assets, around 25%-30% were spanky new from scratch (i.e. mine or Cuv's), around a further 50%-60% of the rest of them were Bioware originals but highly modified by me, so coming under the 'derived works' heading and the rest (very few) were unmodded areas given new names.
That was many hundreds of hours work stolen. Had it been a good mod I would have just shrugged my shoulders and walked away from it, but it was awful. I was annoyed at her behaviour but considered at the time that there was nothing I could do about it except suck it up.
Again, apologies for the necropost but I'm sure some people were curious about that.
I have seen instances - more than once - where people had the wrong impression of the conflict. That Roxanne’s only sin was making some content, that some people didn’t like.
The “many alt’s” problem and the IPO theft needs to be brought up, so people don’t think it’s a witch hunt. Roxanne may be super helpful and friendly, her tastes may be different than others but her sins are theft and subterfuge.
@Yovaneth thanks for confirming this.
The one regret I have is that the dream areas with the restored scenes is not in the Seatower Mod yet because we had problems with reliable triggers. Roxanne could pretend it's original content all these time.
I'm on that, though.
@jastey Odd that. During testing I had no problems with area triggers but a lot of problems setting up the reward at the end. OTOH since you've been the Guardian a lot will have changed, so perhaps that's a bit of a redundant comment.
Ugh. The Gorion's Dream mod is still available on GitHub. She took the time to rename most of the variables/areas/cre/items but a comparison shows that the (added) dialog is identical to mine. Oddly, she chose to use uppercase for the renaming but there's a shedload of my lowercase names and vars still in there.
@Yovaneth I think I should be found guilty in part of the whole Seatower disaster. I was the one who leaked the incomplete seatower files to, I won't name *her* but you guys already know who is who. I'm kinda sad to learn about this. I have my own perspective on this but I feel sad how painful this whole thing turned out to be for everyone involved.
I did not expect that it would be leaked by my surprise in a very bad state and I feel bad how what should have been worked on and given to G3 / SHS when it was ready for them to release it was instead stillborn and I feel not great about this for I have a lot of unreleased maps and expansion stuff I would not feel great also being stillborn, leaked then plagiarized then scramble to make the official version to one up the 'fake'. I started the 'leak' by asking for scripting help and to 'her' credit she was the only person to spend a ton of time filtering past my admittedly semi-r*tarded questions at the time (I was very very bad at scripting back then like 97% art 3% coding/scripting 'skill'; I'm slightly better now). I feel sad like this website 'she' put a lot of time and effort into and it might be like one of the only really nice things they enjoyed or like were really good at you know? I think if I had not asked for help and 'leaked' the incomplete version trying to add in a sea dragon dungeon under the castle and polish it up then give it back to SHS / G3 original / rightful owners maybe this website / forum would still be up; and like idk maybe the seatower would still launch but its water under the bridge for better or worse. I worry about the people here for like I will be fine and most people will be fine but like how many like idk vulnerable people got like really hurt by all of this and idk it feels I let myself and a lot of people down and caused a lot of needless chaos. I sort of paved a road to hell with good intentions or mistrust or something not great judgement on my end.
Today I was looking for area art help to finish up some new areas that I have unfinished like a big crypt and a bunch of dungeons and wilderness maps, I was looking for Rabian, K4thos, Cuv and Yovaneth and like I guess my life got busy but I just sorta came back after years I guess and I feel kinda not great at learning this. Especially since things could have been different if I acted differently years ago. I wanted to go back to like a more positive outlook like my E.E.E.E. times and like maybe finish my Arms and Armour Emporium and do more area art for a little expansion north of Baldur's Gate to finish that project while I work on more new rpgs in Godot. I am not sure I belong here anymore or if I should talk to anyone for I need help sure but I'm not sure having so much negativity and and like crushing guilt is good to live with and trying to be positive and like I can't pretend it's all happy go lucky a-okay for this clearly is not okay. I'm also sorry to hear about Beamdog sale fiasco too. I had a sort of dream I should talk to you as old friends again like in the past there is this positivity with how Baldur's Gate was made from and a sense of wonder and optimism make a great adventure with friends; like its really charming. Yet I can't really say I am a great friend to this community after coming back to an old stomping ground and it's like seeing a funeral of a few close people and I might be guilty of the poisoning of the water or like not innocent somehow but I can't really describe it properly.
Perhaps if I make some maps or stuff away from the jolly band of misfits maybe in the end I can be a net positive to this community but I am not sure. I know I can do some good area art and make ~16-24-32 ish area art maps and make like an expansion for Baldur's Gate but it feels like lonelier than a graveyard to do everything in the shadows then release things all alone. It feels not in line with the spirit of the original Baldur's Gate. Ironically or maybe befittingly the expansion that I am trying to complete after years is called 'Legacy of the Undead' and picture north of Baldur's Gate in the fields of the dead with level 6 spell casting maximum experience cap (like how TotSC was level 5 and 1998 was level 4) but its 1997-1999 style as if there was another original expansion to Baldur's Gate. I wonder if I should ask where I should work and if anyone has any ideas / suggestions and or if I should do some soul searching.
I started with ProjectInfinity, and failed. Way too complex, too many mods, not clear which ones are compatible with each other.
It's basically not working, no mod list export possibility, mod checkboxes become very slow when there are a lot of mods checked, and many many more problems. As well, the source code is closed, so i cant just fix that myself.
Then i tried roxxanes EE-Mod-Setup, and it was working way better, there were profiles ready for a newbie like me, and everything was installing and working successfully, at least for me.
So, i dont question the posters here regarding the author rights for mods and stuff.
But i want to thank Roxanne for creating a working and user friendly mod install toolkit.
But i want to thank Roxanne for creating a working and user friendly mod install toolkit.
Roxanne did not create it. She made a hostile fork of a tool created by brilliant, *other* people.
It's funny how every now and then, someone pops in saying "the install worked so much easier, it's a great tool", not considering everything else that's connected to it (I am referring to all the changes and adaptions Roxanne made to the mod versions the tool loads and undocumented tweaks it does to the game itself, for example).
Because, concidering how much bug fixing help she had to provide I doubt the playing eperience of what the tool creates is really that stable and great.
@jastey
I actually think it works and may be easier.
BUT it is meant for (read: railroaded) towards the Sandrah Saga and nothing else. It takes choices away from the user and doesn’t tell you.
In days of old the BWS by Watson kind if did the same. It had 4 easy to understand settings - just download, unpack, choose the setting and leave the computer over night and you where modded… Easy in its own way.
It was only when I did a manual install and followed the 200 page instruction I learned what I missed. In all fairness Watson didn’t hide anything, but you had to read 200+ pages to figure out what you where getting into.
Roxanne makes it easy and Sandrah friendly, but only omits the 200 page long documentation. It has its allure for some people, but if you like to play the game how you like it, then stear clear of Roxanne.
BWS was not by Leonardo, BWS (Big World Setup) is the tool Roxanne cloned for her EE Mod Setup.
Leonardo Watson made / is making BWP (Big World Project) which is a huge pdf for one and also has some kinf of batch tool I think.
Roxanne makes it easy and Sandrah friendly, but only omits the 200 page long documentation.
I do not agree to the "only" in that sentence. It can't be stessed enough that with the tool, you are installing a black box and you can never be sure that mod content - nor game content - is how the authors wrote them. Plus it's not more bug free than installing the maintained, current mod versions.
Thus, the install process is easier, and that's about it.
EDIT: To make myself clear, if players know about this and make the conscious choice of using Roxanne-Sandrah-EET anyhow - knock yourself out. I am making mods so people can enjoy them, and what you do to your game is your choice.
But I insist that people are aware of the situation and chose it on purpose. So I will always argue against any statement of the kind "EE Mod Setup Tool is just an easier installer". It is not, because you do not get the mods - nor the game - in it's intended state.
Sorry. I meant the BWP…. Not the BWS.
I had such fond memories of going to the Kerzenburg forum for downloads, when it was time for a mega modded playthrough. But that was back then.
I can only agree with you on your sentiments Jastey. People have put many hours into these mods, that are given to us for free. The least we can do is respect the modders wishes and intent.
@StummvonBordwehr it's not like I never mixed them up myself at some point..
Thanks for your words.
My wish and intend does include players enjoying my mods. If it means that they change things privately - go ahead. What drives me up the wall is players playing adaptions without being aware and how this came to be.
the problem with the massive undocumented changes is also that bug report and feedback becomes less useful. If some undocumented changes have been made, what to do with the bug reporting?
It may be a bit more cumbersome to actually choose your mods and install order carefully, and spend time learning the ropes. But you often end up saving your own and everybody elses time in the end. And if the modders have more time, we get more mods - less time means….Taking the shortcut is not always the fastest way.
the problem with the massive undocumented changes is also that bug report and feedback becomes less useful. If some undocumented changes have been made, what to do with the bug reporting?
THIS.
It might sound smug if I post "you used the EE Mod Setup, I can't (won't) help you with bug fixing", but I always feel a bit sad about it, actually. (But I'm not a masochist.)
BWS was not by Leonardo, BWS (Big World Setup) is the tool Roxanne cloned for her EE Mod Setup.
Leonardo Watson made / is making BWP (Big World Project) which is a huge pdf for one and also has some kinf of batch tool I think.
Actually, I distinctly remember it being called BWS under Leonardo's aegis already - so I guess Roxanne stole that name too. But even back then I found the more customisable batch install following the BWP pdf preferable to its UI.
As well, the source code is closed, so i cant just fix that myself.
there were profiles ready for a newbie like me
I liked those parts.
Programming and mod installing is a bit different things. I dont want to dive into weidu shit, i just want it configured by someone with expierience.
The way project infinity raclaculates dependencies on every checkbox is completly unnecessary functionality, it should be moved to separate step, as is done in sandras tool, that i belive, i could've modified if code was open.
@Journeyman
I get your point. It has to be easy, and I feel that way to.
But the easy way is the unmodded game. The game engine can be tweaked, but its 25 years old and hasn’t age that well. Modding it with a single mod is perhaps easy, but a mega mod install is not adviced. Leonardo - in days of old - clearly states that a mega mod install will have bugs. But we still do it….
So some tinkering has to be expected. Its not going to be easy as the IE is already strecthed far beyond reason or common sense.
And PS. Jastey don’t need to look for evidence. She has perhaps made a bold claim - but it is one that most veterans will accept as a valid point… And why is that. Well track record for once, since the amount of guile and IPT is well documented already. Roxanne is out of sync with the community - plain and simple.
The French community seems to keep an updated BWS fork. I haven't tried it yet, so I can't say how well it works or if it works for mods in languages other than French.
It looks like the EE Mod Setup Tool has been removed from git and listed as "Discontinued" by Rox.
Strange, i was subscribed to this github, and recieved updates just a few days ago.
Oh well. Ill try bigworld some time i guess. Next time i want to replay bg )
Thanks.
Comments
I was actually aware of that, but I was to vague in my post. Sorry
I saw the cordinated info from the moderators and noted CamDawgs say on the matter on the G3 forum back then.
On this site the following is decreed:
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/70519/roxanne
Thats a lot of alts… We had the merriest time in the following weeks. Everyone suspected each other of being alts. It was like Among U’s!- oh the good times…
And considering how R. liked to lie straight to people's faces, it is quite fitting a comparison.
I did fear that it was too soon for jokes…. As I see it you have plenty of things to be mad at Roxanne about, espicially the whole Baldurans Seatower (another IP theft or at least handling of stolen goods), besides the “alt situation” on G3; so I am glad you can be civil about it
I know plenty of people see red when her name or project is mentioned - and sadly with very good reason. Perhaps one day we can all laugh about it; or even better welcome her back. It would require very much restoration work from her hand and a lot of forgivness from the community. But one can hope
How many alts does she have there?
EDIT: I feel the urge to point out that this was not the only reason our Poobah didn't ban her - we like being able to talk to people, and experience shows they just take their issues elsewhere. EDIT2: didn't prevent Roxanne from never logging into G3 again, lol.
Of the assets, around 25%-30% were spanky new from scratch (i.e. mine or Cuv's), around a further 50%-60% of the rest of them were Bioware originals but highly modified by me, so coming under the 'derived works' heading and the rest (very few) were unmodded areas given new names.
That was many hundreds of hours work stolen. Had it been a good mod I would have just shrugged my shoulders and walked away from it, but it was awful. I was annoyed at her behaviour but considered at the time that there was nothing I could do about it except suck it up.
Again, apologies for the necropost but I'm sure some people were curious about that.
I have seen instances - more than once - where people had the wrong impression of the conflict. That Roxanne’s only sin was making some content, that some people didn’t like.
The “many alt’s” problem and the IPO theft needs to be brought up, so people don’t think it’s a witch hunt. Roxanne may be super helpful and friendly, her tastes may be different than others but her sins are theft and subterfuge.
The one regret I have is that the dream areas with the restored scenes is not in the Seatower Mod yet because we had problems with reliable triggers. Roxanne could pretend it's original content all these time.
I'm on that, though.
Ugh. The Gorion's Dream mod is still available on GitHub. She took the time to rename most of the variables/areas/cre/items but a comparison shows that the (added) dialog is identical to mine. Oddly, she chose to use uppercase for the renaming but there's a shedload of my lowercase names and vars still in there.
Oh well - water under the bridge.
-Y-
I did not expect that it would be leaked by my surprise in a very bad state and I feel bad how what should have been worked on and given to G3 / SHS when it was ready for them to release it was instead stillborn and I feel not great about this for I have a lot of unreleased maps and expansion stuff I would not feel great also being stillborn, leaked then plagiarized then scramble to make the official version to one up the 'fake'. I started the 'leak' by asking for scripting help and to 'her' credit she was the only person to spend a ton of time filtering past my admittedly semi-r*tarded questions at the time (I was very very bad at scripting back then like 97% art 3% coding/scripting 'skill'; I'm slightly better now). I feel sad like this website 'she' put a lot of time and effort into and it might be like one of the only really nice things they enjoyed or like were really good at you know? I think if I had not asked for help and 'leaked' the incomplete version trying to add in a sea dragon dungeon under the castle and polish it up then give it back to SHS / G3 original / rightful owners maybe this website / forum would still be up; and like idk maybe the seatower would still launch but its water under the bridge for better or worse. I worry about the people here for like I will be fine and most people will be fine but like how many like idk vulnerable people got like really hurt by all of this and idk it feels I let myself and a lot of people down and caused a lot of needless chaos. I sort of paved a road to hell with good intentions or mistrust or something not great judgement on my end.
Today I was looking for area art help to finish up some new areas that I have unfinished like a big crypt and a bunch of dungeons and wilderness maps, I was looking for Rabian, K4thos, Cuv and Yovaneth and like I guess my life got busy but I just sorta came back after years I guess and I feel kinda not great at learning this. Especially since things could have been different if I acted differently years ago. I wanted to go back to like a more positive outlook like my E.E.E.E. times and like maybe finish my Arms and Armour Emporium and do more area art for a little expansion north of Baldur's Gate to finish that project while I work on more new rpgs in Godot. I am not sure I belong here anymore or if I should talk to anyone for I need help sure but I'm not sure having so much negativity and and like crushing guilt is good to live with and trying to be positive and like I can't pretend it's all happy go lucky a-okay for this clearly is not okay. I'm also sorry to hear about Beamdog sale fiasco too. I had a sort of dream I should talk to you as old friends again like in the past there is this positivity with how Baldur's Gate was made from and a sense of wonder and optimism make a great adventure with friends; like its really charming. Yet I can't really say I am a great friend to this community after coming back to an old stomping ground and it's like seeing a funeral of a few close people and I might be guilty of the poisoning of the water or like not innocent somehow but I can't really describe it properly.
Perhaps if I make some maps or stuff away from the jolly band of misfits maybe in the end I can be a net positive to this community but I am not sure. I know I can do some good area art and make ~16-24-32 ish area art maps and make like an expansion for Baldur's Gate but it feels like lonelier than a graveyard to do everything in the shadows then release things all alone. It feels not in line with the spirit of the original Baldur's Gate. Ironically or maybe befittingly the expansion that I am trying to complete after years is called 'Legacy of the Undead' and picture north of Baldur's Gate in the fields of the dead with level 6 spell casting maximum experience cap (like how TotSC was level 5 and 1998 was level 4) but its 1997-1999 style as if there was another original expansion to Baldur's Gate. I wonder if I should ask where I should work and if anyone has any ideas / suggestions and or if I should do some soul searching.
I just wanted to share my experience.
Some time ago i wanted to play BG1-2 with mods and common map.
I've never installed mods for BG and this was new to me.
I spent some time searching and found only two at least on some degree newbie-friendly tools
1. https://github.com/ALIENQuake/ProjectInfinity
2. https://github.com/EE-Mod-Setup/EE-Mod-Setup
I started with ProjectInfinity, and failed. Way too complex, too many mods, not clear which ones are compatible with each other.
It's basically not working, no mod list export possibility, mod checkboxes become very slow when there are a lot of mods checked, and many many more problems. As well, the source code is closed, so i cant just fix that myself.
Then i tried roxxanes EE-Mod-Setup, and it was working way better, there were profiles ready for a newbie like me, and everything was installing and working successfully, at least for me.
So, i dont question the posters here regarding the author rights for mods and stuff.
But i want to thank Roxanne for creating a working and user friendly mod install toolkit.
I liked those parts.
It's funny how every now and then, someone pops in saying "the install worked so much easier, it's a great tool", not considering everything else that's connected to it (I am referring to all the changes and adaptions Roxanne made to the mod versions the tool loads and undocumented tweaks it does to the game itself, for example).
Because, concidering how much bug fixing help she had to provide I doubt the playing eperience of what the tool creates is really that stable and great.
I actually think it works and may be easier.
BUT it is meant for (read: railroaded) towards the Sandrah Saga and nothing else. It takes choices away from the user and doesn’t tell you.
In days of old the BWS by Watson kind if did the same. It had 4 easy to understand settings - just download, unpack, choose the setting and leave the computer over night and you where modded… Easy in its own way.
It was only when I did a manual install and followed the 200 page instruction I learned what I missed. In all fairness Watson didn’t hide anything, but you had to read 200+ pages to figure out what you where getting into.
Roxanne makes it easy and Sandrah friendly, but only omits the 200 page long documentation. It has its allure for some people, but if you like to play the game how you like it, then stear clear of Roxanne.
Leonardo Watson made / is making BWP (Big World Project) which is a huge pdf for one and also has some kinf of batch tool I think. I do not agree to the "only" in that sentence. It can't be stessed enough that with the tool, you are installing a black box and you can never be sure that mod content - nor game content - is how the authors wrote them.
Plus it's not more bug free than installing the maintained, current mod versions.
Thus, the install process is easier, and that's about it.
EDIT: To make myself clear, if players know about this and make the conscious choice of using Roxanne-Sandrah-EET anyhow - knock yourself out. I am making mods so people can enjoy them, and what you do to your game is your choice.
But I insist that people are aware of the situation and chose it on purpose. So I will always argue against any statement of the kind "EE Mod Setup Tool is just an easier installer". It is not, because you do not get the mods - nor the game - in it's intended state.
I had such fond memories of going to the Kerzenburg forum for downloads, when it was time for a mega modded playthrough. But that was back then.
I can only agree with you on your sentiments Jastey. People have put many hours into these mods, that are given to us for free. The least we can do is respect the modders wishes and intent.
Thanks for your words.
My wish and intend does include players enjoying my mods. If it means that they change things privately - go ahead. What drives me up the wall is players playing adaptions without being aware and how this came to be.
the problem with the massive undocumented changes is also that bug report and feedback becomes less useful. If some undocumented changes have been made, what to do with the bug reporting?
It may be a bit more cumbersome to actually choose your mods and install order carefully, and spend time learning the ropes. But you often end up saving your own and everybody elses time in the end. And if the modders have more time, we get more mods - less time means….Taking the shortcut is not always the fastest way.
It might sound smug if I post "you used the EE Mod Setup, I can't (won't) help you with bug fixing", but I always feel a bit sad about it, actually. (But I'm not a masochist.)
Programming and mod installing is a bit different things. I dont want to dive into weidu shit, i just want it configured by someone with expierience.
The way project infinity raclaculates dependencies on every checkbox is completly unnecessary functionality, it should be moved to separate step, as is done in sandras tool, that i belive, i could've modified if code was open.
Fork of what.? Please link the original tool.
Also, do you know any other projects like the two i linked, that you can reccomend?
I get your point. It has to be easy, and I feel that way to.
But the easy way is the unmodded game. The game engine can be tweaked, but its 25 years old and hasn’t age that well. Modding it with a single mod is perhaps easy, but a mega mod install is not adviced. Leonardo - in days of old - clearly states that a mega mod install will have bugs. But we still do it….
So some tinkering has to be expected. Its not going to be easy as the IE is already strecthed far beyond reason or common sense.
And PS. Jastey don’t need to look for evidence. She has perhaps made a bold claim - but it is one that most veterans will accept as a valid point… And why is that. Well track record for once, since the amount of guile and IPT is well documented already. Roxanne is out of sync with the community - plain and simple.
I wouldn't know of any other current automated installer tool but I'm an oblivious Windows user.
Link: https://github.com/Selphira/BigWorldSetupFR
Strange, i was subscribed to this github, and recieved updates just a few days ago.
Oh well. Ill try bigworld some time i guess. Next time i want to replay bg )
Thanks.