Question: World Map, coordinates of Mods in general, and the World Map Mod - how can areas "overlap"
shevy123456
Member Posts: 543
in BGII:EE Mods
Hey there folks,
This is mostly a question (or several questions) pertaining to maps and map coordinates,
aka how maps work (primarily in BG2EE), from a modder's perspective, and to a lesser
extent from a player's perspective. Perhaps someone may be able to add some information
that may be interesting to several other people as well, primarily for learning and
understanding how maps work. Before I ask the question or questions, let me try to
explain the underlying thought process here.
I played quite some mods and sometimes - but actually, quite rarely - they cause issues
or side effects, with regards to map position or map placement. Sometimes these issues
can be somewhat entertaining though. For instance, I think in the past, the Dusk NPC
mod had one encounter in the docks area, in the abandoned storehouse; and I think Back
to Brynnlaw or so also had a NPC or two there. And, from Tactics Remix, the vampire
lich would also show up for a party while locking the door. Kind of an ... interesting
group meeting there. The vampire may just have been hungry.
At some point the Dusk NPC mod was expanded and changed (probably because they did not
want to end up as food for the vampire) and now they have a large comfy storehouse more
to the southwest of the storehouse. But, another funny side effect emerged here ... the
temple of Mask! When I go to the passage there, I sometimes enter the temple of Mask,
and sometimes ... the place where Fall's and Dusks's supporting NPCs are, and Demolisher
the dog. Quite through the very same passage. Now it seems as if, if I click a bit more
to the north entry of the passage and slightly east (when you can still click), I am more
likely to go to the area for Dusk and his NPC friends; whereas if I go a bit more towards
the lower-bottom-left side with the mouse pointer, I seem more likely to go to the temple
of Mask instead (which, unfortunately, does not have a lot of content, though it has a
passage north - not sure if it leads anywhere). It also seems to be a bit random which area
I can access; initially I am more likely to enter Dusk's area, then suddenly the temple of
Mask only. But I think it is not totally random here, since I can access both areas. So
it can not be 100% random; and I think it can not be 50% random either, there must be
something in the code that determines in this case which other area is then accessed. No
clue what determines where the party goes though.
In other threads, people also report oddities with the world map mod. I think in one of
Acifer's mods there was an issue that was reported - see the discussion here:
https://www.gibberlings3.net/forums/topic/41353-mod-poisoned-pathways-a-quest-mod-for-bg2ee/page/2/#comment-360795
(The user also showed map snapshots how it looks installed, so that is a visual cue that
may explain the problem here. I actually did not have that issue, although I may not
have seen The Grove at all, so perhaps that was just a problem with Almateria's Restoration
Project; but even then one can ask "How does this happen?" I guess such clashes exist
because of the map placement location, right?)
We may encounter similar issues every now and then in other mods, where the areas seem to be a
bit offset or off or overlapping. I also had one bug in ToB where usually I could go to complete
Neera's quest, but two areas seem to overlap there and I can not seem to go to the hidden place
(the map location "underneath" the other map location) where Neera would normally do reckless
dweller something spell ... this spell is necessary to then cause the party to sleep and be
able to continue the side quest of Neera here. As I can not go to the area, I can not complete
Neera's quest. I forgot which other mod may have placed something there though, but I remember
having run into this problem in the past.
Now I would like to understand how such things:
a) arise, and
b) also, ideally, how to avoid these, both by modders and players e. g.
installation order or any other way. I guess it may not be possible to
avoid it, but understanding how this arises may be helpful. For instance,
in the above Temple of Mask versus Dusk NPC, I'd be more inclined to no
longer use the mod that installs Temple of Mask (guess it is Almateria?),
though that one seems not to be a huge problem, as I can access Dusk's
place still. (Though, a bit interesting to see how that mod seems to cause
several issues with regards to map placement.)
To make this a bit easier to answer, I'd like to propose a few questions,
actually three combined questions in total; perhaps one or the other
question may be answered by people with more knowledge (especially modders
with experience), who know more about this than regular players do.
1) Starting with the bug I had with Neera, where two map locations overlap
or partially overlap, how can this happen? With that I mean, I assume mods
carry some coordinate position or something like that, to determine where
they are placed; and then the game engine may also have to figure out which
one is shown overlaid and which one is shown beneath it (in the ideal scenario
no such clash exists, but we know that such problems can exist, as seen from
screenshots and reports by players). So how is this specified? Is this like
in some file(s) that could easily be changed before the mod is installed? In
which files may this be found, e. g. if someone wishes to propose changing
the coordinate of one mod here?
2) With the situation such as described before, that is the overlapping
of passages (Temple of Mask versus Dusk's hideout), how does that
specific situation arise? In particular that when we go through the
same passage, we may either end up in this or in that area, which is
a bit strange from an in-game logic (but perhaps it is magic!) that
the same pathway leads to two different rooms/areas. Imagine a door
and behind that door could be twenty different rooms - a Schroedinger
cat room! You never know which variant you enter ... could almost be
a subquest.
3) Last but not least, from a player's perspective who may not know
how to fix this in files, aside from not installing certain mods,
are there some installation recommendations that are better to use?
First come, first serve? Or things to be overwritten? For instance,
with my naive assumption here, I would assume that it may be better to
install more important bigger mods lateron, in the case they could
overwrite or take precedence over other mods, with regards to
such map coordinates. I don't know how the world map determines positions
though; perhaps it is the reverse, whoever first occupies a position
on the map cancels any other downstream installation. Or it is, for
some reason, always deterministic, no matter which mod is installed
first. I really don't know how the game engine works here. I do think
there may be some partial overlap, as the two icons for an area on
the world map sometimes seem to be of different size. I still seem
to be only able to click one, but not on the other, at the least on
the world map mod actually. It has been quite some time since I last
played with the regular map, so I don't know if there are any differences
between the world map mod and the normal vanilla game here.
Anyone who knows a thing or two about how coordinates are handled by
the game engine, it would be appreciated if that knowledge is shared,
or if there is documentation about it to be able to read more about
it. (I have not checked gibberling or GemRB for documentation; one
problem I have is that I am really bad at finding things these days,
Google Search seems to not be that effective anymore compared to
years ago, and I also have some trouble navigating regular websites.)
This is mostly a question (or several questions) pertaining to maps and map coordinates,
aka how maps work (primarily in BG2EE), from a modder's perspective, and to a lesser
extent from a player's perspective. Perhaps someone may be able to add some information
that may be interesting to several other people as well, primarily for learning and
understanding how maps work. Before I ask the question or questions, let me try to
explain the underlying thought process here.
I played quite some mods and sometimes - but actually, quite rarely - they cause issues
or side effects, with regards to map position or map placement. Sometimes these issues
can be somewhat entertaining though. For instance, I think in the past, the Dusk NPC
mod had one encounter in the docks area, in the abandoned storehouse; and I think Back
to Brynnlaw or so also had a NPC or two there. And, from Tactics Remix, the vampire
lich would also show up for a party while locking the door. Kind of an ... interesting
group meeting there. The vampire may just have been hungry.
At some point the Dusk NPC mod was expanded and changed (probably because they did not
want to end up as food for the vampire) and now they have a large comfy storehouse more
to the southwest of the storehouse. But, another funny side effect emerged here ... the
temple of Mask! When I go to the passage there, I sometimes enter the temple of Mask,
and sometimes ... the place where Fall's and Dusks's supporting NPCs are, and Demolisher
the dog. Quite through the very same passage. Now it seems as if, if I click a bit more
to the north entry of the passage and slightly east (when you can still click), I am more
likely to go to the area for Dusk and his NPC friends; whereas if I go a bit more towards
the lower-bottom-left side with the mouse pointer, I seem more likely to go to the temple
of Mask instead (which, unfortunately, does not have a lot of content, though it has a
passage north - not sure if it leads anywhere). It also seems to be a bit random which area
I can access; initially I am more likely to enter Dusk's area, then suddenly the temple of
Mask only. But I think it is not totally random here, since I can access both areas. So
it can not be 100% random; and I think it can not be 50% random either, there must be
something in the code that determines in this case which other area is then accessed. No
clue what determines where the party goes though.
In other threads, people also report oddities with the world map mod. I think in one of
Acifer's mods there was an issue that was reported - see the discussion here:
https://www.gibberlings3.net/forums/topic/41353-mod-poisoned-pathways-a-quest-mod-for-bg2ee/page/2/#comment-360795
(The user also showed map snapshots how it looks installed, so that is a visual cue that
may explain the problem here. I actually did not have that issue, although I may not
have seen The Grove at all, so perhaps that was just a problem with Almateria's Restoration
Project; but even then one can ask "How does this happen?" I guess such clashes exist
because of the map placement location, right?)
We may encounter similar issues every now and then in other mods, where the areas seem to be a
bit offset or off or overlapping. I also had one bug in ToB where usually I could go to complete
Neera's quest, but two areas seem to overlap there and I can not seem to go to the hidden place
(the map location "underneath" the other map location) where Neera would normally do reckless
dweller something spell ... this spell is necessary to then cause the party to sleep and be
able to continue the side quest of Neera here. As I can not go to the area, I can not complete
Neera's quest. I forgot which other mod may have placed something there though, but I remember
having run into this problem in the past.
Now I would like to understand how such things:
a) arise, and
b) also, ideally, how to avoid these, both by modders and players e. g.
installation order or any other way. I guess it may not be possible to
avoid it, but understanding how this arises may be helpful. For instance,
in the above Temple of Mask versus Dusk NPC, I'd be more inclined to no
longer use the mod that installs Temple of Mask (guess it is Almateria?),
though that one seems not to be a huge problem, as I can access Dusk's
place still. (Though, a bit interesting to see how that mod seems to cause
several issues with regards to map placement.)
To make this a bit easier to answer, I'd like to propose a few questions,
actually three combined questions in total; perhaps one or the other
question may be answered by people with more knowledge (especially modders
with experience), who know more about this than regular players do.
1) Starting with the bug I had with Neera, where two map locations overlap
or partially overlap, how can this happen? With that I mean, I assume mods
carry some coordinate position or something like that, to determine where
they are placed; and then the game engine may also have to figure out which
one is shown overlaid and which one is shown beneath it (in the ideal scenario
no such clash exists, but we know that such problems can exist, as seen from
screenshots and reports by players). So how is this specified? Is this like
in some file(s) that could easily be changed before the mod is installed? In
which files may this be found, e. g. if someone wishes to propose changing
the coordinate of one mod here?
2) With the situation such as described before, that is the overlapping
of passages (Temple of Mask versus Dusk's hideout), how does that
specific situation arise? In particular that when we go through the
same passage, we may either end up in this or in that area, which is
a bit strange from an in-game logic (but perhaps it is magic!) that
the same pathway leads to two different rooms/areas. Imagine a door
and behind that door could be twenty different rooms - a Schroedinger
cat room! You never know which variant you enter ... could almost be
a subquest.
3) Last but not least, from a player's perspective who may not know
how to fix this in files, aside from not installing certain mods,
are there some installation recommendations that are better to use?
First come, first serve? Or things to be overwritten? For instance,
with my naive assumption here, I would assume that it may be better to
install more important bigger mods lateron, in the case they could
overwrite or take precedence over other mods, with regards to
such map coordinates. I don't know how the world map determines positions
though; perhaps it is the reverse, whoever first occupies a position
on the map cancels any other downstream installation. Or it is, for
some reason, always deterministic, no matter which mod is installed
first. I really don't know how the game engine works here. I do think
there may be some partial overlap, as the two icons for an area on
the world map sometimes seem to be of different size. I still seem
to be only able to click one, but not on the other, at the least on
the world map mod actually. It has been quite some time since I last
played with the regular map, so I don't know if there are any differences
between the world map mod and the normal vanilla game here.
Anyone who knows a thing or two about how coordinates are handled by
the game engine, it would be appreciated if that knowledge is shared,
or if there is documentation about it to be able to read more about
it. (I have not checked gibberling or GemRB for documentation; one
problem I have is that I am really bad at finding things these days,
Google Search seems to not be that effective anymore compared to
years ago, and I also have some trouble navigating regular websites.)
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