I think in PnP, half-orcs are probably fine. But when you can reallocate stat points and easily start with both 19 Strength and 19 Constitution, and there isn't even a penalty to Dexterity -- that's overpowered.
Dwarves: 19 Con saving throw bonuses -1 Dex
Half-Orcs: 19 Con 19 Str
I'm throwing out the -2 Int half-orcs get and the -2 Cha dwarves get, because they are comparable for meathead-type characters in that neither are very important.
EDIT: Upon further consideration, I take it back. Charisma is more useful than Intelligence, so the half-orc wins again. Charisma helps you somewhat throughout the game, while Intelligence only comes into play up against the handful of mind flayers in BG2.
Why would anyone use a barb instead of a beserker? Mastery really helps in BG1 where your thaco is bad, and grandmastery is a big boost in bg2.
Probably because they want the higher health, damage resistance, and immunity to backstab.
Also Barbarian Rage > Berserking.
And I like having two pips in a ranged weapon besides Throwing Axes/Throwing Daggers. Inability to have Mastery (***) does suck but High Mastery (****) and Grand Mastery (*****) is overrated.
-----
Right now I'm running a Halfling Barbarian (named Kitty Kitty Bang Bang) and she's actually surprisingly epic despite the hit to her strength. Barbarian Raging certainly makes up for it, and her (tome boosted) 19 Constitution means 17 HP/level AND epic saving throws. Also, the 19 Dexterity makes her great with a bow. I have Dorn and Monty in my party so her not being the most amazing melee-er in the world is actually totally cool. In an Evil Party, what you're missing most is a great bowman, so of course I would take a Barbarian over a Berserker in that context.
In the end a game is about fun and I don't believe I'd be having as much fun with a Berserker.
not really arguing, cos, you know, each after his own playstyle, but personally I dislike cleric/thieves. they lack proper backstabbing (staffs? erm...)
I take it you haven't gone to town with the Staff of Striking yet, have you? Or the Staff of the Ram? A staff is pretty much the best non-summoned weapon for backstabs in the game. (the best summoned weapon for backstabs is Shapechange: Golem of course)
Barbs are very similar to berserkers, this is true, especially where their main ability (Raging) is concerned. However, there are enough differences to make them not entirely redundant.
1: Barbs get an improved movement Rate. This helps greatly with kiting and Flanking. 2: The Rages work slightly differently. A 'Zerker's rage gives a flat +2 Bonus to attack, damage, and AC, and 15 HP. A Barb's Rage gives a +4 Bonus to Str and Con, which has the potential for greater boosts, but actually incurs a penalty on AC. Also, after a 'Zerker is done raging, he will be winded and draw a few penalties, while a Barb if fine. 3: Starting at level 11, they start to get Damage resistance vs physical attacks. Combined with the higher hit die, makes them last longer in the later stages of BG2, where everyone's THACO is low enough that AC is not as big of a difference maker anymore. 4: Immunity to Backstab. This doesn't popup that often, but when it does, you'll be glad to be taking 10 damage vs 50.
@Humanoid_Taifun: I'm very much aware of the cheesiness of the staffs... I just don't like 'em personally, because of the cheesiness. but neither do I use mislead-backstab (which is... holy shit, words can't truly describe that monstrosity) or for example prot. from undead scrolls against Gaxxie. but, you know, whatever floats your boat.
In bg2, the best ac armor was either the shadow dragon armor or the grandmaster leather armor in tob.
I think I remember using the white dragon armor (AC -2) on a Barbarian as well, but I may be mistaken. But we can all agree that being limited in what armor you can use really doesn't matter anymore late-game. And Half-Orcs probably make the best barbs (just to stay on topic).
You are correct, my friend. Then the barbarian's ac goes down to -17. I forgot to mention there is natural physical resistance at high levels.
Sure, in game you can make a super overpowered character due to point buying. I personally think the BG character creation process is flawed because it's encourages people min/maxing, which I hate.
The game itself encourages min max thanks to AD&D low level characters being the most disgusting thing in the realms, and the game not sparing you anything at all, what with throwing level 5+ mages at your level 1 party, undead that can paralyze you etc. If you are not a fighter, you die in 1 hit and miss forever. If you are a fighter, you die in 2 hits and still miss forever. If you don't get a ranged weapon... well, feel free to sacrifice your soul to Power Word:Reload. Of course, thankfully that's only for the first... 3 levels or so, but still it can be quite punishing for someone that doesn't know the game well yet.
And to add to the injury, it's game over if the main character dies.
I can't really comment on half-orcs in BG1 but in BG2 my Half Orc Fighter was the only class I managed to finish the game with. I played core rules and just found him to be an absolute machine in melee but he would get pwned in ranged and magical combat. I had him using warhammers and flails in dual weapon mode.
I think the reason I actually finished the game with him rather than rerolling half way through (usually got bored of my class and wanted to start again) was because despite his wicked strengths in some areas he was relatively weak in others.
Anyway the best part about BG is that there are so many different combinations that its really up to you how you want to play. If you wanna play Half-Orc but feel he is too powerful maybe hobble him in some way?
Having a 19 strength is incredibly powerful. Having a +1 strength tome in the game means any race or class can get one. Half orcs just get that early. The jump from 18 to 19 strength is huge, from 19 to 20 not so much.
In my opinion Gnomes being forced into the Illusionist kit is the best racial bonus in the game. In that sense I think that gnomes are the most overpowered race. However, that only applies to mage-based multiclasses. If I were powergaming a class with Half-Orc as one the option I would probably choose it. The strength is a very nice bonus for the early game, especially for non-fighters who would otherwise be limited to 18 strength until the late game tome. I prefer to spend gold to get immunity instead of relying on saving throws, so I'm not very interested in that bonus. The thief points are nice, but they are spread between more skills than you max out in BG1, so that takes away some of the usefulness. Luckily, halflings have points distributed among good skills. In BG2 all thieves will have more than enough points.
Well, there could be a mod that completely changes the dialogue of each NPC with a Half-Orc NPC, similarly to Half-Orcs and Half-Ogres in Arcanum - some of the more powerful races, but everyone is completely disgusted by them XD
My last Arcanum Character was a Half-Orc Beat With an Ugly Stick Technologist. She had to wear the pretty dress to get a decent reaction. And if I wore the barbarian armor guards would attack me on sight. I actually used that to my advantace on occasion to provoke NPCs into attacking first XD
They're easier to roll for, and have a melee advantage in the early game, but at the end, anyone except a halfling will have 19 str...and the difference between 19 and 20 is only +1 damage + 100 weight.
It wouldn't be if Specialists were implemented properly. Illusionists are supposed to lose Necromancy, Evocation/invocation, and Abjuration....which would normally suck, but they have several groups of illusion spells that can replicate those effects....but none of those spells were implemented in BG.
A high level barbarian, with DoEH and hardiness active has 80% DR.
Their rage lasts half that of the berserker, and doesn't make you immune to maze/imprisionment (and possibly level drain...it's been forever since I used a barb last). IF you're evil, the rage is somewhat wasted since an evil imported half-orc warrior-type can get a natural 25 str by the end of the game negating the str contribution of the rage, where as a berserker would add an additional +2 damage on top of that. Good/Neutral on the other hand needs the rage to hit 25.
My Half-orc was always like..."Oh don't serve my kind eh? *Mind-rapes Racist jerk*, yes I would like the suite please, oh for free?, you're too kind."
Ultimately, this isn't a competitive game. So Balance isn't really much of an issue. Honestly, they' be better off buffing up the weaker races a bit rather than hammering down the better ones. But really... the game is old and based on an even older pen and paper game. So...
I just want to say that I haven't read any of this thread and: Whatever balance issues there may be with mr. half orc, it is well worth the time saved by not needing to roll for a high stat total and a high strength %. K. Thanks. Bye.
Ultimately, this isn't a competitive game. So Balance isn't really much of an issue. Honestly, they' be better off buffing up the weaker races a bit rather than hammering down the better ones. But really... the game is old and based on an even older pen and paper game. So...
except in PnP it is pretty much impossible to end up with 19 str 18 dex 19 con.. especially if youre using classic rules. (roll 3d6)
and i have yet to see someone make a half orc without those stats at level 1
With the Strength Book, I don't usually give a darn of the Strength % is good.
Hell, with the strength belts in BG2, I don't really care what my character's strength is, so long as he is at least strong enough to use his chosen weapons and armor.
I don't think that they are overpowered at all. They are strong as front line characters. But elves are better when it comes to ranged weapons. Dwarves (and the rest of the small races) have much better saves, humans can dual class which is a huge adventage. I think that every race brings his own power. Maybe the only race that I might think is underpowered is maybe half-elves.
I don't think that they are overpowered at all. They are strong as front line characters. But elves are better when it comes to ranged weapons. Dwarves (and the rest of the small races) have much better saves, humans can dual class which is a huge adventage. I think that every race brings his own power. Maybe the only race that I might think is underpowered is maybe half-elves.
Until they fix Cleric/Ranger, I think they're pretty safe there.
I don't think that they are overpowered at all. They are strong as front line characters. But elves are better when it comes to ranged weapons. Dwarves (and the rest of the small races) have much better saves, humans can dual class which is a huge adventage. I think that every race brings his own power. Maybe the only race that I might think is underpowered is maybe half-elves.
Half elves are good for bards and multiclassing instead of dual classing and not much else.
Half elves do get an impressive array of multiclass options, not least of which is mage/cleric for the most spells ever (and the mage gets to wear a helmet and a shield).
Edit: Before you say it, yes gnomes can be illusionist/clerics but the cleric/mage gets better spell selection compared to better spells per day. They are both good.
In my opinion Gnomes being forced into the Illusionist kit is the best racial bonus in the game. In that sense I think that gnomes are the most overpowered race. However, that only applies to mage-based multiclasses. If I were powergaming a class with Half-Orc as one the option I would probably choose it. The strength is a very nice bonus for the early game, especially for non-fighters who would otherwise be limited to 18 strength until the late game tome. I prefer to spend gold to get immunity instead of relying on saving throws, so I'm not very interested in that bonus. The thief points are nice, but they are spread between more skills than you max out in BG1, so that takes away some of the usefulness. Luckily, halflings have points distributed among good skills. In BG2 all thieves will have more than enough points.
illusionists are lovely... until about level 13-16, when suddenly everyone else is throwing around skull traps and horrid wiltings, and they're stuck with fireball for 3rd lvl and... well, not much for 8th.
I love Jan on lower levels, truly adore cleric/illusionists in IWD, and they're not bad in BG1 (though the lack of horror hurts), but by BG2, they pretty much lose 2 out of the 3 best attacks spells.
Ultimately, this isn't a competitive game. So Balance isn't really much of an issue. Honestly, they' be better off buffing up the weaker races a bit rather than hammering down the better ones. But really... the game is old and based on an even older pen and paper game. So...
except in PnP it is pretty much impossible to end up with 19 str 18 dex 19 con.. especially if youre using classic rules. (roll 3d6)
and i have yet to see someone make a half orc without those stats at level 1
Let me introduce you to my PC, Yorgen. I only allow myself 10 rolls on stats, and I refuse to allow any of them go below 10. These are personal rules, I know, but I find that I enjoy the game much better than power gaming a character. This may be viewed as a power game option I suppose, but I'm only adding the 2 wisdom tomes along with the int and dex ones. Happy hunting friends and have fun chasing Saverok!
Comments
I think in PnP, half-orcs are probably fine. But when you can reallocate stat points and easily start with both 19 Strength and 19 Constitution, and there isn't even a penalty to Dexterity -- that's overpowered.
Dwarves:
19 Con
saving throw bonuses
-1 Dex
Half-Orcs:
19 Con
19 Str
I'm throwing out the -2 Int half-orcs get and the -2 Cha dwarves get, because they are comparable for meathead-type characters in that neither are very important.
EDIT: Upon further consideration, I take it back. Charisma is more useful than Intelligence, so the half-orc wins again. Charisma helps you somewhat throughout the game, while Intelligence only comes into play up against the handful of mind flayers in BG2.
And I like having two pips in a ranged weapon besides Throwing Axes/Throwing Daggers. Inability to have Mastery (***) does suck but High Mastery (****) and Grand Mastery (*****) is overrated.
-----
Right now I'm running a Halfling Barbarian (named Kitty Kitty Bang Bang) and she's actually surprisingly epic despite the hit to her strength. Barbarian Raging certainly makes up for it, and her (tome boosted) 19 Constitution means 17 HP/level AND epic saving throws. Also, the 19 Dexterity makes her great with a bow. I have Dorn and Monty in my party so her not being the most amazing melee-er in the world is actually totally cool. In an Evil Party, what you're missing most is a great bowman, so of course I would take a Barbarian over a Berserker in that context.
In the end a game is about fun and I don't believe I'd be having as much fun with a Berserker.
Or the Staff of the Ram?
A staff is pretty much the best non-summoned weapon for backstabs in the game. (the best summoned weapon for backstabs is Shapechange: Golem of course)
1: Barbs get an improved movement Rate. This helps greatly with kiting and Flanking.
2: The Rages work slightly differently. A 'Zerker's rage gives a flat +2 Bonus to attack, damage, and AC, and 15 HP. A Barb's Rage gives a +4 Bonus to Str and Con, which has the potential for greater boosts, but actually incurs a penalty on AC. Also, after a 'Zerker is done raging, he will be winded and draw a few penalties, while a Barb if fine.
3: Starting at level 11, they start to get Damage resistance vs physical attacks. Combined with the higher hit die, makes them last longer in the later stages of BG2, where everyone's THACO is low enough that AC is not as big of a difference maker anymore.
4: Immunity to Backstab. This doesn't popup that often, but when it does, you'll be glad to be taking 10 damage vs 50.
I think the reason I actually finished the game with him rather than rerolling half way through (usually got bored of my class and wanted to start again) was because despite his wicked strengths in some areas he was relatively weak in others.
Anyway the best part about BG is that there are so many different combinations that its really up to you how you want to play. If you wanna play Half-Orc but feel he is too powerful maybe hobble him in some way?
It wouldn't be if Specialists were implemented properly. Illusionists are supposed to lose Necromancy, Evocation/invocation, and Abjuration....which would normally suck, but they have several groups of illusion spells that can replicate those effects....but none of those spells were implemented in BG.
A high level barbarian, with DoEH and hardiness active has 80% DR.
Their rage lasts half that of the berserker, and doesn't make you immune to maze/imprisionment (and possibly level drain...it's been forever since I used a barb last). IF you're evil, the rage is somewhat wasted since an evil imported half-orc warrior-type can get a natural 25 str by the end of the game negating the str contribution of the rage, where as a berserker would add an additional +2 damage on top of that. Good/Neutral on the other hand needs the rage to hit 25.
My Half-orc was always like..."Oh don't serve my kind eh? *Mind-rapes Racist jerk*, yes I would like the suite please, oh for free?, you're too kind."
Whatever balance issues there may be with mr. half orc, it is well worth the time saved by not needing to roll for a high stat total and a high strength %.
K. Thanks. Bye.
Half-Orcs are therefore underpowered.
and i have yet to see someone make a half orc without those stats at level 1
Edit: Before you say it, yes gnomes can be illusionist/clerics but the cleric/mage gets better spell selection compared to better spells per day. They are both good.
I love Jan on lower levels, truly adore cleric/illusionists in IWD, and they're not bad in BG1 (though the lack of horror hurts), but by BG2, they pretty much lose 2 out of the 3 best attacks spells.
Yea, the above post of mine works much better with the screen shot!