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Is shaman mage weak?

1235

Comments

  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 3,208
    No
    chimaera said:

    Raduziel said:

    chimaera said:

    Raduziel said:



    * The best disabler spell through the whole saga (Nature's Beauty) and some other disables that works as damage dealers too (Creeping Doom, Summon Insects, Dolorous Decay and Insect Plague).

    Well, I have tried using nature's beauty (both with a druid and with a r/c in BGT) and haven't found it all that useful. It seems to have a very small radius, and between the long casting time & enemies moving around, it was more miss than hit.
    Step 1: Pixie Dust

    Step 2: Nature's Beauty

    Profit.
    Useless in scs.
    Really? I use it a lot even in SCS.

    The opposite team casts TS, but by the time they finish and can actually do something Nature's Beauty is already working its magic.

  • Ludwig_IILudwig_II Member Posts: 63
    All this argument makes me wanna start a druid playthrough. Maybe a totemic druid...

  • Ludwig_IILudwig_II Member Posts: 63
    Btw, durmir46, even though you asked for opinions in the thread, I think you're only trying to prove your own point. So I'll just say what you want to hear. Okay guys, durmir is right, let's disperse

  • ArcanjoArcanjo Member Posts: 149
    I'm in doubt.


    As for spells, there's already one thread that explains it in detail and you may refer to that. In BG, I'd take these spells in the given order:

    Level 1: Entangle, Cure Light Wounds, Doom, Bless, Armour of Faith

    Level 2: Charm Person/Mammal, Slow Poison, Resist Fire/Cold, Flame Blade (take Barkskin later in BG2)

    Level 3: Call Lightning, Dispel Magic, Summon Insects

    Level 4: Call Woodland Beings, Defensive Harmony

    In ToB what choices would be most indicated?

  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 639
    edited August 8
    Yes
    Raduziel said:

    chimaera said:

    Raduziel said:

    chimaera said:

    Raduziel said:



    * The best disabler spell through the whole saga (Nature's Beauty) and some other disables that works as damage dealers too (Creeping Doom, Summon Insects, Dolorous Decay and Insect Plague).

    Well, I have tried using nature's beauty (both with a druid and with a r/c in BGT) and haven't found it all that useful. It seems to have a very small radius, and between the long casting time & enemies moving around, it was more miss than hit.
    Step 1: Pixie Dust

    Step 2: Nature's Beauty

    Profit.
    Useless in scs.
    Really? I use it a lot even in SCS.

    The opposite team casts TS, but by the time they finish and can actually do something Nature's Beauty is already working its magic.
    Yes, it didn't work all that well when I tested it in the two scs/ascension-bgt runs. Though the bug certainly explains it.

  • ArcanjoArcanjo Member Posts: 149
    I'm in doubt.
    Shaman has changed no 2.5 compared to the current version or did they keep it the same?
    Suddenly in 2.5 it may be better and this will change some votes and opinions here.

  • Rik_KirtaniyaRik_Kirtaniya Member Posts: 1,201
    edited August 8
    No
    Arcanjo said:


    As for spells, there's already one thread that explains it in detail and you may refer to that. In BG, I'd take these spells in the given order:

    Level 1: Entangle, Cure Light Wounds, Doom, Bless, Armour of Faith

    Level 2: Charm Person/Mammal, Slow Poison, Resist Fire/Cold, Flame Blade (take Barkskin later in BG2)

    Level 3: Call Lightning, Dispel Magic, Summon Insects

    Level 4: Call Woodland Beings, Defensive Harmony

    In ToB what choices would be most indicated?
    This thread describes it all brilliantly.

  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 419
    Arcanjo said:

    Shaman has changed no 2.5 compared to the current version or did they keep it the same?
    Suddenly in 2.5 it may be better and this will change some votes and opinions here.

    In the patch notes it says they were mistakenly given the ability to wear certain armors greater than leather, and this has been rectified.

    I have no confirmation which armors these are but I suspect they can't wear dragonscale anymore.

    Been a while since I looked through the notes but that's the only significant shaman change I recall.

  • ArcanjoArcanjo Member Posts: 149
    I'm in doubt.

    Arcanjo said:

    Shaman has changed no 2.5 compared to the current version or did they keep it the same?
    Suddenly in 2.5 it may be better and this will change some votes and opinions here.

    In the patch notes it says they were mistakenly given the ability to wear certain armors greater than leather, and this has been rectified.

    I have no confirmation which armors these are but I suspect they can't wear dragonscale anymore.

    Been a while since I looked through the notes but that's the only significant shaman change I recall.
    Summary, still made him weaker! Or better take things from him, but have not improved ANYTHING? Complicated it!

  • ArcanjoArcanjo Member Posts: 149
    I'm in doubt.
    Which NPCs have synergy with Shaman, for example in a combo of skills or even for facilitating a Dual game (Solo +1) or ...? Which NPCs have strong synergies with the Shaman that could soften his weaknesses?

  • Durmir46Durmir46 Member Posts: 110
    edited August 10
    Yes
    Arcanjo said:

    Which NPCs have synergy with Shaman, for example in a combo of skills or even for facilitating a Dual game (Solo +1) or ...? Which NPCs have strong synergies with the Shaman that could soften his weaknesses?

    I suggest Korgan, Edwin and Viconia.
    With these 3 you should be able to finish the game, with any CHARNAME, including shaman. Some would recomment a bard to help the summons. But even with a bard, summons are very meh and hard to use, and Haer'Dalis is best used slashing people anyway.

    Oh, and take Jan. Obviously.

  • borntodieborntodie Member Posts: 116
    Durmir46 said:

    I suggest Korgan, Edwin and Viconia.

    While I have a soft spot for Viconia, do you really believe she is stronger than a pure class druid or shaman? A pure priest has some nice anti-undead spells, but a druid gets:

    Iron skins for protection
    woodland beings = spell level 4 Mass Cure
    Insect Plague

    The three of these are really strong. Neither a shaman nor a druid are much good in melee, but neither is Viccy.

    In any case, if you run a shaman main, Viccy is not the best option to add, having two pure priest-type casters is redundant.

  • Durmir46Durmir46 Member Posts: 110
    edited August 10
    Yes
    borntodie said:

    Durmir46 said:

    I suggest Korgan, Edwin and Viconia.

    While I have a soft spot for Viconia, do you really believe she is stronger than a pure class druid or shaman? A pure priest has some nice anti-undead spells, but a druid gets:

    Iron skins for protection
    woodland beings = spell level 4 Mass Cure
    Insect Plague

    The three of these are really strong. Neither a shaman nor a druid are much good in melee, but neither is Viccy.

    In any case, if you run a shaman main, Viccy is not the best option to add, having two pure priest-type casters is redundant.
    I have explained my views on all that in the previous pages of this thread.
    But I will add: the question is: what NPC to go with a shaman. I will therefore assume that there are already druidic spells in the team. A cleric would therefore be a good complement. Viccy with Crom Faeyr or belts is a more than capable frontliner (and even if Korgan is really good, 1 frontliner is not enough to protect 2-3 squishable; more melee attacks also mean faster dispatch of small enemies), and the cleric gives access to a number of nigh essential spells, starting with protection from evil. And with the large number of undeads in the game, some clerics spells will be a very nice addition.

    But yes, I get your point: she is not essential. A nice addition, but not essential.

  • borntodieborntodie Member Posts: 116
    Durmir46 said:

    Viccy with Crom Faeyr or belts is a more than capable frontliner

    How can you say this and also say that druid is weak? Strength is the least problem Viconia has as a frontlines. Her HP are so very low. And worse, her APR! She can't even wield any speed weapon like belm.

    A pure druid with iron skins, black blood, strength girdle and belm is a better frontliner than Viconia can ever hope to be.

  • Durmir46Durmir46 Member Posts: 110
    edited August 10
    Yes
    borntodie said:

    Durmir46 said:

    Viccy with Crom Faeyr or belts is a more than capable frontliner

    How can you say this and also say that druid is weak? Strength is the least problem Viconia has as a frontlines. Her HP are so very low. And worse, her APR! She can't even wield any speed weapon like belm.

    A pure druid with iron skins, black blood, strength girdle and belm is a better frontliner than Viconia can ever hope to be.

    Clerics have better weapons, better armor, better defensive spells (iron skins is nice and all but in the heat of the battle it disappears fast when cast on frontliners... it is an awesome spell if you stay behind however, insuring you to make it through most battles with no hp loss). And many of their offensive spells (especially against undead, which are everywhere in BG2) benefit from being cast on the frontline.
    She is a decent frontliner and her role as a pure fighter will be to dispatch small enemies and help soaking damage thanks to great AC. No need for APR for that. 1APR with a good weapon and some blade barrier, that's all you need.

    Also, Viccy is a NPC.... You cannot compare a pre-created NPC to a fully customised (and therefore optimised) character. If you compare your main character to Tiax or Quayle, I bet you will find any class in the game overpowered. Ok, Viccy is not quite comparable to these (almost litterally) clowns, but you get the point.

  • borntodieborntodie Member Posts: 116
    edited August 10
    No, I was comparing her to Cernd, not a main.

    The good weapon might be FoA, I guess? This is a better weapon than blackblood, but Cernd gets +2 APR (+1 for each weapon) from Belm. Since we are talking about a party, he has it doubled to 6 APR after IH from Edwin. Now one of these attacks is going to be assigned to the offhand weapon, the other 5 will be made with BlackBlood.

    No matter how you look at it, 5 APR with Blackblood is far, far superior offense to 2 APR with FoA.

    Defensively, you say Iron Skin disappears fast in a battle. This makes me wonder if you have actually tried it. I have, and most battles are over before your Iron Skin wears out. They are much better than Stoneskins. You get 1 additional IronSkin for every 2 levels. At level 12 we are already talking about 6 hits you're soaking. At higher levels it gets even better.

    Armor Class, at the other hand, is just not enough to rely on as a frontliner with low HP. Enemies will still hit you, especially in the later parts of the game.

    So that leaves Viconia as a Blade Barrier killer. Nice trick, but imo you're better off with Sanctuary + Blade Barrier on Viconia and giving the good weapons and armor to someone else who can put them to better use.

    Or use Anomen instead, if you can endure him. ;)

  • Durmir46Durmir46 Member Posts: 110
    edited August 10
    Yes
    borntodie said:

    No, I was comparing her to Cernd, not a main.

    The good weapon might be FoA, I guess? This is a better weapon than blackblood, but Cernd gets +2 APR (+1 for each weapon) from Belm. Since we are talking about a party, he has it doubled to 6 APR after IH from Edwin. Now one of these attacks is going to be assigned to the offhand weapon, the other 5 will be made with BlackBlood.

    No matter how you look at it, 5 APR with Blackblood is far, far superior offense to 2 APR with FoA.

    Defensively, you say Iron Skin disappears fast in a battle. This makes me wonder if you have actually tried it. I have, and most battles are over before your Iron Skin wears out. They are much better than Stoneskins. You get 1 additional IronSkin for every 2 levels. At level 12 we are already talking about 6 hits you're soaking. At higher levels it gets even better.

    Armor Class, at the other hand, is just not enough to rely on as a frontliner with low HP. Enemies will still hit you, especially in the later parts of the game.

    So that leaves Viconia as a Blade Barrier killer. Nice trick, but imo you're better off with Sanctuary + Blade Barrier on Viconia and giving the good weapons and armor to someone else who can put them to better use.

    Or use Anomen instead, if you can endure him. ;)

    This is an absolutely different topic than the one discussed in this thread.
    So I will not discuss this here, however as an intro I would highlight Cernd is overall not a very popular NPC (and it's not just his personality), unlike Viccy. Some reasons include, but are not limited to:
    - super poor dex
    - super poor AC (poor guy is a punching bag)
    - shapeshift is just plain bad
    - very popular combo for Viccy is Crom Faeyr + CON girdle, makes her very hard to kill as she has super low AC and very high HP with great def buffs. With no gear, DUHM is a very popular way to transform her into a beast in melee
    - Cernd is uselss against some enemies in the game, such as undeads and golems
    - you have to wait lvl15 for Cernd to be of any use, which can be really long
    - Viccy has an innate insane amount of MR
    - access to bread and butter buff spells for Viccy


    EDIT:
    You put some doubt in me, so I laid some numbers on a paper.
    Assumption:
    - Cernd: lvl15. Bracers of AC3. Iron skins and defensive harmony on. Ring 1 bonus AC.
    - Viconia: lvl15. Body armor class -1. Shield 4 bonus AC, ring 1 bonus AC. Prot from evil and defensive harmony on.
    - enemy is a lvl15 warrior, 18/55 STR with a simple +2 axe and 3 pips proficiency in axes.
    - I have averaged only the damage rolls.

    Cernd and Viconia stay still, the warrior attacks them.
    Viconia will survive a full turn and then should be killed on average.
    Cernd will survive 6 rounds and then will be killed on average. Iron skin will disappear entirely as soon as round 3 (against only ***1*** fighter of the same level... imagine in the heat of the battle).
    Cernd is just not for melee... it is pure suicide

    Post edited by Durmir46 on
  • ArcanjoArcanjo Member Posts: 149
    I'm in doubt.
    Durmir46 said:

    Arcanjo said:

    Which NPCs have synergy with Shaman, for example in a combo of skills or even for facilitating a Dual game (Solo +1) or ...? Which NPCs have strong synergies with the Shaman that could soften his weaknesses?

    I suggest Korgan, Edwin and Viconia.
    With these 3 you should be able to finish the game, with any CHARNAME, including shaman. Some would recomment a bard to help the summons. But even with a bard, summons are very meh and hard to use, and Haer'Dalis is best used slashing people anyway.

    Oh, and take Jan. Obviously.
    What about BG1?
    Aeire seems to be one of the best NPC options (Cleriga and Maga)

  • borntodieborntodie Member Posts: 116
    edited August 10
    I don't think your comparison was fair, Cernd has bad equipment in your example (should have dex gauntlets and ankheg armor). But this is getting off-topic. My point was, a pure-class priest (recommended by you) is weaker than the shaman class, which according to you is weak.

    Using a pure druid like Cernd as a tank is bad, yeah. But the point is that using a pure priest as a tank is even worse, because you are putting a squishy caster at risk and all you get for it is a measly 1 APR, or 2 with haste.

    And yes, I said squishy. The HP of a pure priest are not nearly as good as those of a fighter, even with high con. A priest does not gain bonus HP for con > 16. AC will not be good enough against tougher opponents, are you really letting her go toe to toe with a fire giant? In order to deal one or two melee hits a round?

    Post edited by borntodie on
  • borntodieborntodie Member Posts: 116
    Raduziel said:

    Cernd can't use armors AFAIK.

    Okay, my bad.

  • ArcanjoArcanjo Member Posts: 149
    I'm in doubt.
    After reading tuo shaman does not seem a weak class, it is very strong among the Druids, I even understood the spells for solo, my doubt is. Which Weapons guarantee me solo on BG 1, SoD and 2? A boy replied, before it would be Stilingue, Dart and Dagger, but I do not understand why direct, even though the Shaman has 19STR he only has ONE, I repeat ONE point in Arma's proficiencies. :(

  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 639
    Yes
    Durmir46 said:



    She is a decent frontliner and her role as a pure fighter will be to dispatch small enemies and help soaking damage thanks to great AC. No need for APR for that. 1APR with a good weapon and some blade barrier, that's all you need.

    Also, Viccy is a NPC.... You cannot compare a pre-created NPC to a fully customised (and therefore optimised) character. If you compare your main character to Tiax or Quayle, I bet you will find any class in the game overpowered. Ok, Viccy is not quite comparable to these (almost litterally) clowns, but you get the point.

    The irony is that Quayle, by the virtue of being a c/i is far more powerful than Viconia. I like Vicky as a character, but using her as a frontline fighter is just wasting a party slot that could be filled by someone actually competent at fighting.


    @Arcanjo
    You don't use darts for plain damage, you use them for applying effects, like poison or stun. For the same reason a shortbow is a good choice in BG1, where you can find various magical arrows, e.g. dispelling or detonation.

  • Durmir46Durmir46 Member Posts: 110
    Yes
    Arcanjo said:

    Durmir46 said:

    Arcanjo said:

    Which NPCs have synergy with Shaman, for example in a combo of skills or even for facilitating a Dual game (Solo +1) or ...? Which NPCs have strong synergies with the Shaman that could soften his weaknesses?

    I suggest Korgan, Edwin and Viconia.
    With these 3 you should be able to finish the game, with any CHARNAME, including shaman. Some would recomment a bard to help the summons. But even with a bard, summons are very meh and hard to use, and Haer'Dalis is best used slashing people anyway.

    Oh, and take Jan. Obviously.
    What about BG1?
    Aeire seems to be one of the best NPC options (Cleriga and Maga)
    I actually love many of the NPCs in BG1, I only regret they do not have the banters you have in BG2. Maybe in a future update, who knows?
    If I had to choose, Dorn and Baeloth are absolutely obvious and a perfect match to go with a shaman. There is simply no better. Then Shar-Teel to complete, that you can dual into thief at lvl7. Alternatively, Montaron can be picked super early in the game. He will be slightly inferior but he will definitely get the job done. Just leave Xzar deep in a cave x)
    If you want to complete, Kagain comes next and Edwin obviously.

  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 257
    edited August 10
    borntodie said:


    Using a pure druid like Cernd as a tank is bad, yeah. But the point is that using a pure priest as a tank is even worse, because you are putting a squishy caster at risk and all you get for it is a measly 1 APR, or 2 with haste.

    The shaman is certainly competitive with Cernd or a singleclass priest on the front line. On the default difficulty level, in fact, you can actually finish the game with those three characters being your front line. But your front line would be much, much stronger if you used fighter/clerics or fighter/druids instead.

    At character creation FCs and FDs have 5/2 attacks per round versus 1 for singleclassed divine casters, a gap that widens to 7/2 as you head into the middle of the game and becomes a chasm once HLAs enter the picture. Remember too that it isn't just the damage increase that matters, but also the presence of on-hit effects like slow that are much more likely to be applied with multiple attacks per round.

    To be sure, you don't pick a divine caster for your party solely because you want them on the front line. But even if you're not interested in using them as tanks, the fact that divine casters get their top spells at such a low level (compared to mages) means there isn't much of a casting downside to multiclassing them.

    That's why I think shamans are somewhere in the middle of the pack power-wise, not "weak" by any means but also not nearly strong enough to merit a place in a completely optimized party.

  • butteredsoulbutteredsoul Member Posts: 95
    Can’t we all just get along?

    Seems like a good time to start a 2 PC + ? NPC run using a shaman AND a sorcerer!!

  • _Nightfall__Nightfall_ Member Posts: 108
    edited August 15
    Yes
    I am working on a solo run with the Shaman and a poverty 5 character run. They do really well in the poverty run, there is set-up time to make them shine though and I think that most characters can kick a lot of butt given a proper set-up. With no equipment but basic weapons and a Skald that is always singing those spirits do a good bit of the work.

    I don’t know about solo. I mean, I have had to run many, many times when nothing was summoned, ouch crap!, nothing was summoned, ummmmm, guys come on where are you?, nothing was summoned, RUN AWAY! Trying to do a no reload I had to give up on using them so much. I usually do the sewers party right away if I have a Druid, I tried it with only one fire elemental and two dryads and spent nearly a half an hour running away to kill them all. Dryads stole one cleric, helped the fire elemental kill the mage while he was slapping the bugs I put in his bonnet, froze half of the crew, confused some more and they still killed all of my summons before the Shaman got more than one little hound out. It would have been better had I just used the bow instead of dancing. Now that I am farther along the summons are almost all minor nature spirits and they are showing up more consistently it is much better but I have still almost had to run away from thugs at the docks. I seriously don’t like to run from thugs, feels unnatural almost. If there is an opportunity to work them right they really help though. Usually I just run it like a regular Druid and that I think will be able to get me through the game.

    Things that I have noticed so far:
    No Belm, that is a serious blow. But...
    Axes! Easy troll and undead killers from the very beginning!
    Bows! Yeah, I am really enjoying that. I might not have to save every single Oil of Speed to try to kill Melissan. Course I will anyway.
    No Deva? Oh come on, really?!
    No Elemental Princes. A chance at one is not the same thing. With these guys and Devas, my Druid solo runs in ToB have been close to the easiest. Ah hem... till Melissan anyway.

    I still have a long way to go but for now they are mostly like any Druid except for the Sorcerer like careful order in which you have to pick spells. I think that by ToB I might miss the sheer volume of spells that a Druid has but maybe not, if I can learn to use the dance well anyway.

    Post edited by _Nightfall_ on
  • _Nightfall__Nightfall_ Member Posts: 108
    Yes
    It sounds like it would be worth trying but I play on an android tablet. I have a technology deficiency, so bad that even on my old xp computer I had to get a friend to figure out how to install the romance mod.

    Thank you though. Some of these things I would like to try, SCS most of all, but I would also like to climb Mt Everest, win the Nobel Peace Prize and spend a week in Fiji with Chris Hemsworth, I have to accept that these things are not possible.

  • _Nightfall__Nightfall_ Member Posts: 108
    Yes
    I am voting that yes, Shaman is weak. Mostly because I solo almost all of the time it is not particularly great comparatively. Forget the dance, the spirit summons have no punch in the game at all, so that leaves how they compare to other casters, in particular Druids. After just reaching my hla’s It is still a struggle. The lack of Devas and Princes is palpable. I worked through the the Planar sphere and finally got Sunnis facing the demons, two elementals do not equal one prince. Sunnis squished everything for one turn. Never got one in the red dragon’s lair.

    I really don’t know how it will turn out but it is not spectacular so far. Will I get to the end of ToB? Maybe, probably even but that could be wishful thinking. If I can reach the end it may be the first non-dual, non-multi Druid character that I have ever beat Melissan with but I have my doubts that it will reach the end.

    High level summons separate the Druids, one axe, one bow cannot make up for the lack. Make no mistake, those are the ONLY advantages over a Druid at high levels. Druids get so many high level summons and so many spells that the Shaman does not compare.

    Okay so, I have not used the high level Shaman specific spells, they may possibly add to the class. Also, if I can reach the end of ToB it might be able to push through, that will make it a solid class, if not....

    Anyway, in Brynnlaw now but I need to play a fun character for a bit. Will get back to this but it is no longer a priority. I have a Cleric/Thief in Sendai’s Conclave that I have been missing, time to have her finish the game I think.

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