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Is shaman mage weak?

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Comments

  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 2,973
    No
    Arcanjo said:

    Do the STR, CON, DEx, INT, WIS, CHA statuses affect their invocations and strength? or do they have fixed statuses and only changes the same type of invocation?

    The Shaman's stats won't affect the invocations at all. Works much like the Sorcerer.
    Arcanjo said:

    Are there any good Mod, which releases castle pro Shaman and runs on BG 1,2 and IWD?

    What do you mean by release castle?

    ThacoBell
  • BorekBorek Member Posts: 387
    No
    AFAIK the summons have fixed stats and are not affected by the shaman's. As for mods to give them a stronghold all i can suggest is Tweaks Anthology and select the unlimited strongholds option, then they can own all strongholds.

    StummvonBordwehrArcanjo
  • ArcanjoArcanjo Member Posts: 126
    edited July 29
    I'm in doubt.
    In the BG1 Shaman this is making me pass rage, impossible solar of Shaman in the BG1! Impossible! Because?
    1. It takes d + to come the creatures invoked.
    2. I'm on lv 1 and it's difficult to get lv 2.
    3. There are enemies that explode the shaman on 2 hits, the shaman should move while invoking the creature, or have some way to distract the enemies. And in Naskel's mines in Prim's mission, the hunter killed the invocations, finally in the BG1 has no solar coom with him, needs to set up a team.
    4. I usually walk and face the enemy, sometimes surrounded by others like Naskel and it gets very difficult, not to die! thousand years to conjure an invocation.
    5. The invocations miss attacks, they are very wrong!

    If anyone has any suggestions, please say, I'll be grateful! (Thank you very much!)

    Post edited by Arcanjo on
  • BorekBorek Member Posts: 387
    No
    Arcanjo said:

    In the BG1 Shaman this is making me pass rage, impossible solar of Shaman in the BG1! Impossible! Because?
    1. It takes d + to come the creatures invoked.
    2. I'm on lv 1 and it's difficult to get lv 2.
    3. There are enemies that explode the shaman on 2 hits, the shaman should move while invoking the creature, or have some way to distract the enemies. And in Naskel's mines in Prim's mission, the hunter killed the invocations, finally in the BG1 has no solar coom with him, needs to set up a team.
    4. I usually walk and face the enemy, sometimes surrounded by others like Naskel and it gets very difficult, not to die! thousand years to conjure an invocation.

    If anyone has any suggestions, please say, I'll be grateful! (Thank you very much!)

    The start of BG1 is always rough, all i can suggest is to use bows/throwing axes as much as possible and be prepared to kite. The summons are immune to non-magical weapons, but the hunter has the +2 sword Varscona so yes he will easily kill the summons. I always kite him around the small cliff just below prism and throw an axe/fire a bow when he's far enough away to not reach me with melee, then run back up past prism in a loop doing the same until he's dead lol. Cheesy but he's too tough to try in melee, even pure fighters in Ankheg plate tend to get rekt by him.

    StummvonBordwehrArcanjo
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 6,247
    No
    @Arcanjo Your summons are strong enough to handle most random encounters in the game. Work on your positioning and you can have your summons safely kill enemies for you with very little risk.

  • ArcanjoArcanjo Member Posts: 126
    I'm in doubt.
    ThacoBell said:

    @Arcanjo Your summons are strong enough to handle most random encounters in the game. Work on your positioning and you can have your summons safely kill enemies for you with very little risk.

    I'll quote Naskel's mines, after speaking with prim a hunter comes up, he talks to me and deconcentrates me, undoing the invocations. And he starts attacking me in the act, I'm forced to run and he chases me, playing solo seems impossible because of things like that. With time still to try something, one pulls the bixos for the invocations, but not even think.


    5. The invocations miss much, but much attack!

  • ArcanjoArcanjo Member Posts: 126
    I'm in doubt.
    Raduziel said:

    What do you mean by release castle?

    Shaman has no access to any castle in BG2

  • ArgyleArgyle Member Posts: 39
    Shamans are a challenge, but there is power there. With invisibility (via Pixie Dust spell, potion, ring, etc.) you can get them into the right spot for the spirit summons to take on the monsters. I was able to defeat even Iron Golems this way, but it takes time and does not feel very heroic compred to more direct confrontation.

  • ArcanjoArcanjo Member Posts: 126
    I'm in doubt.
    Argyle said:

    Shamans are a challenge, but there is power there. With invisibility (via Pixie Dust spell, potion, ring, etc.) you can get them into the right spot for the spirit summons to take on the monsters. I was able to defeat even Iron Golems this way, but it takes time and does not feel very heroic compred to more direct confrontation.

    Do you use invisibility just to position? For it is revealed when the first invocation arises. Here comes another problem in the BG1 wanted solar, but I do not have access so far to anything that allows me to.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 6,247
    No
    Arcanjo said:

    ThacoBell said:

    @Arcanjo Your summons are strong enough to handle most random encounters in the game. Work on your positioning and you can have your summons safely kill enemies for you with very little risk.

    I'll quote Naskel's mines, after speaking with prim a hunter comes up, he talks to me and deconcentrates me, undoing the invocations. And he starts attacking me in the act, I'm forced to run and he chases me, playing solo seems impossible because of things like that. With time still to try something, one pulls the bixos for the invocations, but not even think.


    5. The invocations miss much, but much attack!
    That's a named enemy, not a random spawn. Greywolf is not someone to be taking on solo at level 1 with any class. It should still be possible to kite him with ranged weapons, that would be the strategy for any solo level 1 character.

  • NeverusedNeverused Member Posts: 513
    No
    Yeah, you’re focusing far too much on trying to use the dance early on. From level 1 to like level 6, just use a shortbow or sling and shoot everything to death from range. The trick in BG1 is that melee is really, really bad compared with ranged attacks.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 6,247
    No
    @Neverused I always found the dance really useful right out the gate. But the positioning can be tricky to figure out at first. The biggest problem with Arcanjo's situation is Greywolf's magic sword. Its high enchanctment level means he will cleave throught the summons fairly quickly.

    ZaghoulBorek
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 2,839
    No
    Arcanjo said:

    Are there any good Mod, which releases castle pro Shaman and runs on BG 1,2 and IWD?

    Yes. I'm pretty sure @LavaDelVortel 's mod Will of the Wisps - Shamanic enhancements now includes a shaman stronghold for anyone in BG2.

    ThacoBellStummvonBordwehr
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 3,493
    No
    Neverused said:

    Yeah, you’re focusing far too much on trying to use the dance early on. From level 1 to like level 6, just use a shortbow or sling and shoot everything to death from range. The trick in BG1 is that melee is really, really bad compared with ranged attacks.

    I agree with this. Soloing with any character in BG1 is hard if you've not played the game much, but if you know the game well it's easy enough. A few tricks to get you going:
    - Shoal can be found to the west of High Hedge. Make sure she never gets close enough to talk to you as her kiss is fatal and just kite her round with any character. To make it shaman specific start at extreme visibility to the south of her and shoot at her before stepping back out of sight. Then dance until you get a summons (which always appear to your north). If she went hostile from your shot (sometimes it takes more than one) your summons will see her and attack. Their attacks don't generally do much damage, but as Shoal has no melee weapon equipped they get the bonus from that and will quickly tear her apart.
    - There are lots of basilisks to the east of Beregost temple. If you know their positions you can recruit Korax and follow him round while he deals with them all. If you don't know that then you're better off buying the green scroll from the carnival to protect against their gaze while shooting them. Note that there's Kirian's party and Mutamin on the map who are both dangerous enemies. Korax will make short work of the latter, while hiding behind a rock and dancing to send spirits against the enemies will deal with Kirian & co.
    - If you're good at kiting then go to Durlag's Tower and pick up the battle horrors on the path there (one at a time). Run them round inside Writhing Fogs. If you find that's hard, buy the Wand of the Heavens from Ulgoth's Beard and burn them down.
    - By now you'll be at least level 6 and less vulnerable to mistakes. You want to get up to level 7 though, so keep doing encounters where the enemies can't fight back, e.g. Greywolf, ogres, fishermen for Tenya etc - just kiting them or running them round in Writhing Fogs.
    - At level 7 you get access to nymphs. They have great spells in their own right, but are also useful to drag enemies into your pre-prepared dancing summons (and by now you're getting some second tier summons with the dance which are significantly better at attacking).

    Have fun :).

    BorekNeverusedThacoBellStummvonBordwehr
  • ArcanjoArcanjo Member Posts: 126
    I'm in doubt.
    Grond0 said:

    Neverused said:

    Yeah, you’re focusing far too much on trying to use the dance early on. From level 1 to like level 6, just use a shortbow or sling and shoot everything to death from range. The trick in BG1 is that melee is really, really bad compared with ranged attacks.

    I agree with this. Soloing with any character in BG1 is hard if you've not played the game much, but if you know the game well it's easy enough. A few tricks to get you going:
    - Shoal can be found to the west of High Hedge. Make sure she never gets close enough to talk to you as her kiss is fatal and just kite her round with any character. To make it shaman specific start at extreme visibility to the south of her and shoot at her before stepping back out of sight. Then dance until you get a summons (which always appear to your north). If she went hostile from your shot (sometimes it takes more than one) your summons will see her and attack. Their attacks don't generally do much damage, but as Shoal has no melee weapon equipped they get the bonus from that and will quickly tear her apart.
    - There are lots of basilisks to the east of Beregost temple. If you know their positions you can recruit Korax and follow him round while he deals with them all. If you don't know that then you're better off buying the green scroll from the carnival to protect against their gaze while shooting them. Note that there's Kirian's party and Mutamin on the map who are both dangerous enemies. Korax will make short work of the latter, while hiding behind a rock and dancing to send spirits against the enemies will deal with Kirian & co.
    - If you're good at kiting then go to Durlag's Tower and pick up the battle horrors on the path there (one at a time). Run them round inside Writhing Fogs. If you find that's hard, buy the Wand of the Heavens from Ulgoth's Beard and burn them down.
    - By now you'll be at least level 6 and less vulnerable to mistakes. You want to get up to level 7 though, so keep doing encounters where the enemies can't fight back, e.g. Greywolf, ogres, fishermen for Tenya etc - just kiting them or running them round in Writhing Fogs.
    - At level 7 you get access to nymphs. They have great spells in their own right, but are also useful to drag enemies into your pre-prepared dancing summons (and by now you're getting some second tier summons with the dance which are significantly better at attacking).

    Have fun :).

    Can you send me some screen, showing these positions for the dance? I always imagine some allied NPC going by appearing to the enemy in this way and drawing attention to the invocations. Although I talk to Solo, I plan to go with some NPCs: My Shaman and a Clerigo, maybe another, but I do not know anybody or any other good option to close 3 (I thought of a Bardo to buffar the spirits and the invocations in general )

  • ArcanjoArcanjo Member Posts: 126
    I'm in doubt.
    Grond0 said:

    Spirits always try to appear just to the NW of the character - 1 on the screenshot. If that position is taken then further spirits are displaced to the right - 2 and 3 on the screenshot. Displacement can also occur if your character is next to an object like a wall or a rock.

    If you're not soloing then dragging enemies into spirits is much easier. Just dance to get your maximum number of summons ready and then send an NPC to contact the enemy before running back past the spirits. Once they are engaged your side can join the attack.

    Another way to make use of spirit summons while solo is to use Algernon's Cloak:
    - charm an enemy
    - set a Writhing Fog a bit to the north of your shaman
    - dance to get spirits ready
    - walk the enemy into the fog to make him hostile and the spirits will attack him.

    Algernon's Cloak
    This cover can dominate what kind of being, in the game? Humans, animals, monsters. ...? From what I read, she can dominate virtually every living thing in the game, and this includes enemies like the Hunter trying to kill the Prim in Neskel. That's it?
    This cover of the +2 in Charisma, the charisma influences in these spells of domination, like animal charm or person, among others? (For it is not written on Charisma in the description of the spells)

    Cover issue is that I do not have wallet hit, and neither without i necessary value, but it seems to kill npc, but loses -2 Reputation.

  • BorekBorek Member Posts: 387
    No
    Yeah it's a rep hit to kill him, the only other option for the cloak (outside of the console) is to pickpocket him, but need a thief/bard for that. Depending on what stage of the game you could hire Garrick, with a potion of thievery he should succeed.

  • ArcanjoArcanjo Member Posts: 126
    I'm in doubt.
    Arcanjo said:

    Grond0 said:

    Spirits always try to appear just to the NW of the character - 1 on the screenshot. If that position is taken then further spirits are displaced to the right - 2 and 3 on the screenshot. Displacement can also occur if your character is next to an object like a wall or a rock.

    If you're not soloing then dragging enemies into spirits is much easier. Just dance to get your maximum number of summons ready and then send an NPC to contact the enemy before running back past the spirits. Once they are engaged your side can join the attack.

    Another way to make use of spirit summons while solo is to use Algernon's Cloak:
    - charm an enemy
    - set a Writhing Fog a bit to the north of your shaman
    - dance to get spirits ready
    - walk the enemy into the fog to make him hostile and the spirits will attack him.

    Algernon's Cloak
    This cover can dominate what kind of being, in the game? Humans, animals, monsters. ...? From what I read, she can dominate virtually every living thing in the game, and this includes enemies like the Hunter trying to kill the Prim in Neskel. That's it?
    This cover of the +2 in Charisma, the charisma influences in these spells of domination, like animal charm or person, among others? (For it is not written on Charisma in the description of the spells)

    Cover issue is that I do not have wallet hit, and neither without i necessary value, but it seems to kill npc, but loses -2 Reputation.
    Work in BG2? or only BG1?

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 3,493
    No
    Algernon's Cloak is only available in BG1 (though there is a nymph cloak in BG2, which has some similarities).

    Arcanjo
  • FylFyl Member Posts: 62
    edited August 4
    Shaman is a Sorc-Style Druidic caster with a few cleric spells and access to some armor, bucklers, and axes. Also benefits from being a Half-orc.

    Late-game weakness in TOB comes from the 7 level divine spell list and inability to multi/dual... they get practically no growth past lvl 18

    Post edited by Fyl on
    Arcanjo
  • ArcanjoArcanjo Member Posts: 126
    I'm in doubt.
    I'm trying to play with it in BG1: EE and probably in SoD and BG2: EE, but I'm seeing that the class seems to have a lot of problems, like standing still, which would not be so uncomfortable if the invocations had a better chance of appearing, A LOT to come and already happened from my team (we are 3 = Me, Viconia and Garrick) die and nothing comes out invocation! My Shaman is already lv 4 almost 5, has few spells and the best is the ice cloud, he can not stand out. Basically the Viconia is who stands out in the team, standing out. He looks like an invocation that invokes. :neutral:

  • FylFyl Member Posts: 62
    edited August 5
    Shaman spell progression is slow
    Arcanjo said:

    I'm trying to play with it in BG1: EE and probably in SoD and BG2: EE, but I'm seeing that the class seems to have a lot of problems, like standing still, which would not be so uncomfortable if the invocations had a better chance of appearing, A LOT to come and already happened from my team (we are 3 = Me, Viconia and Garrick) die and nothing comes out invocation! My Shaman is already lv 4 almost 5, has few spells and the best is the ice cloud, he can not stand out. Basically the Viconia is who stands out in the team, standing out. He looks like an invocation that invokes. :neutral:


    That's a very low level

    Also due to BG1's XP cap, your shaman will only max out with 4 spell levels...vs 5 for a druid

    However, the -3 Thac0 +7 dmg STR bonus of a lvl 1 Halforc Shaman is devasratingly more powerful than the maximum -1 Thac0 +2 dmg of a non-fighter-class at maximum 18 str. And it works with thrown weapons and slings, too.

    Arcanjo
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 6,247
    No
    @Arcanjo Shamans play pretty differently than a lot of classes, once you get their "flow" down, you will have a much easier time. Its also possible that Shamans may not ever really "click" with you, and that's fine. As for using the dances, they best used pre-meditated. Make sure you have some summoned spirits BEFORE you start the combat.

    StummvonBordwehrArcanjo
  • Rik_KirtaniyaRik_Kirtaniya Member Posts: 1,009
    edited August 5
    No
    Some experimentation shows that you can (with some skill and proper timing) actually move a shaman while he's dancing without dispelling the summons, even in the unmodded game. ;) See here.

    ArcanjoZaghoul
  • ArcanjoArcanjo Member Posts: 126
    I'm in doubt.

    Some experimentation shows that you can (with some skill and proper timing) actually move a shaman while he's dancing without dispelling the summons, even in the unmodded game. ;) See here.

    Shaman looks like an incomplete class, badly made! In addition to the slowness to gain level (It seems a multiclass), the invocations fail a lot. (They make the attack directly, they delay to appear, I have already been 1 turn or more without invocation in the battle), the ice cloud has very low damage. side effect, basically does not help at all). Shaman in BG1: EE annoys more than amuses! (I.e.

    This difficult solo with him, kill the Drift so even lv 8 can not, he kills the direct invocations (EEKeeper).

    Durmir46
  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 230

    Most people try to compare the shaman with the fighter/druid (is it because Jaheira is one?), where the latter has access to better armour, two proficiency points and better THAC0 solely because of the fighter counterpart, and then complain that the shaman is poor in combat. But one must remember that compared to a single class druid, the shaman has the same armour selection, same THAC0 progression, and a much better weapon selection (axes and shortbows, which even a Fighter/Druid can't use). The Shaman would have been much more powerful if dual/multi-classing with it was allowed, but even then, it's still fairly powerful in physical combat (19 STR also helps in that).

    Great points about why the shaman is stronger than people think. Why are people more interested in comparing them to fighter/druids? Probably because fighter/druids are more powerful (as you say) which means that's what they'd have to drop from their current party if they were to add a shaman. It's a shame shamans can't also multiclass as a fighter.

  • Durmir46Durmir46 Member Posts: 96
    edited August 6
    Yes
    The problem with the shaman is that people compare it to the druid.

    So, just to clarify for everyone who reads here to understand what I believe is a massive consensus among testers, guides and recognised players with in-depth knowledge of the game:

    - YES, shaman is better than a druid. That is 100% sure, and it is true for all druid kits.

    - YES, the shaman is still one of the weakest classes in the game. Nobody said druids were any good compared to other classes.

    - NO, the shaman is not weak in the sense that if the players builds him/her, gives appropriate equipements and knows what he/she is doing, the shaman is still going to kick ass, but this is mainly because every single class in the game will kick ass too. At least in normal or core rules difficulty. In LoB, you have to be suicidal to play shaman. Shaman is only here to provide an additional challenge, precisely because it is weaker than other classes.


    In other words and to answer the question asked at first: is the shaman weak? It depends on your definition of weak.
    In my head, the question was: is the shaman weak compared to other classes? Then the answer is an obvious YES and I doubt anyone can challenge that objectively.
    If the question is: is the shaman weak enough to jeopardise my ability to finish the game, then clearly the answer is NO. A good player will always be able to get the best out of the shaman, and even if this best is much lower than average performance from an average class, the player will still finish the game.

    I hope this helps any future player: if you are looking for overpowered classes, do not pick shaman. If you are looking for something different, with its own playstyle, RP-wise interesting and with a few twists, then by all means go for the shaman. Depending on what you like to play, you may actually enjoy playing one a lot. But do not expect your shaman to compete with most other classes in the game. This class will never be mentioned in any "top 10 BG classes" rankings ever. Period.

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