The shaman does suffer comparatively from a design flaw - they are forced to follow rules that every other creature ignores: Cast & Attack. Every other class gets 3-4 round queues (attack, activate, modal, move) at all times, while using the Shaman's dance limits them to just one. A bard can divide each round between attacking, casting, moving and singing. A shaman can divide each round between attacking, casting, moving and detecting, or they can dance for the whole round and nothing else.
If you were to completely ignore their dancing ability and treat them as nothing more than a spontaneous druid with Detect Illusions, then there's nothing wrong with them compared to the other classes. But if you try and use their dancing, it breaks the flow of the game compared to every other class. They aren't necessarily weak or under-powered when dancing, just boring, as your forced to watch the game play itself.
Other issues with Shamans (some are bugs):
Summons script actions currently bugged (often stop attacking after they're first target dies) - only a problem because they cannot be controlled.
Slave to RNG for any results - even with 53% chance (BG/SOD cap), I can occasionally still go a full turn without any summons (and not at the limit).
AC penalty while dancing - no reason it should apply to missile attacks, if anything they should have a bonus.
Not really alive, dead, or undead: Immune to Backstab, Poison, Disease, and Mind-affecting spells, but not to fatigue, petrification, or level drain.
Writhing Fog cannot be stacked unlike other AoE spells. It's still a solid spell, but this behavior is not mentioned anywhere in it's description.
Dance is just another tool in your bag of tricks, not the sole and central ability...although I suppose in BG1 you would be more prone than usual to running out of spells
There's always the fallback of chucking bullets daggers or axes at people~ works a lot better with 19str
@Durmir46 Druids have OBSCENELY good spells at high levels. Insect Plague wins 90% of encounters across the whole saga with almost 0 risk, Call Woodland beings gets you multiple spells of levels 3-5 for a single level 3 slot, and Nature's Beauty permantely blinds with no save. Druids are arguably the best offensive casters in the game.
For the record. Druid hits my list of top 5 best classes.
@Durmir46 Druids have OBSCENELY good spells at high levels. Insect Plague wins 90% of encounters across the whole saga with almost 0 risk, Call Woodland beings gets you multiple spells of levels 3-5 for a single level 3 slot, and Nature's Beauty permantely blinds with no save. Druids are arguably the best offensive casters in the game.
For the record. Druid hits my list of top 5 best classes.
To add to that, there's the powerful Fire Elemental which only the Druid can summon without being paralyzed for 3 rounds like mages. It's one of the best summons in the game!
The point is, I have a brutal difficulty going Solo with my Shaman. I even added a Bard and a Cleriga to the Time, we are lv 4 ~ 5, nor does Drizzit kill (being that a dwarf fighter and dorn spy on him with good equipment) and the invocations neither in lv9 (They cause damage in the Drizzit).
If the army sucks by surprise in front of me I die because I even cast entangle, ice smoke, and the like. It already falls hard on the floor.
BG1 (How Solar?): - What spells do I get? - What equipment should I put into it? - How to suppress his common problems (Summons)?
and in SoD and BG2 I have the same questions, because I want to zero everything with it.
I have viceroy (Cleriga) on the team and Garrick (Bardo) to help me and I do not want to have more than that (Viconia for a novel RP), the bard to buff and use spells (But honestly he does not help much, to remove). But I would like to go alone myself.
@Durmir46 Druids have OBSCENELY good spells at high levels. Insect Plague wins 90% of encounters across the whole saga with almost 0 risk, Call Woodland beings gets you multiple spells of levels 3-5 for a single level 3 slot, and Nature's Beauty permantely blinds with no save. Druids are arguably the best offensive casters in the game.
For the record. Druid hits my list of top 5 best classes.
That is the first time I ever read that. I'm willing to keep an open mind, but I really fail to see how anything from the druid can compete with Stop Time + Improved Alacrity (with Vecna robes) + 3 Abu-Dalzim (or comet, or dragon breath, or anything you want, really). Mages simply have an "I win" button druids lack.
Mages have access to the very best summons in the game (HLA summon is obvious, but even cacofiend outclass every druid summon, as well as haekeshar), the very best buffs in the game and the very best offensive spells in the game (what about a triple skull trap in ya face through a nice spell trigger? and that's just a lvl 3 spell, don't start me on higher levels...).
You mention "top 5 best classes", explain how they beat the following 5 (I could add more, but let's keep to your number): Fighter/Illusionist Kensai->Thief Sorcerer Illusionist/Thief Dark Moon Monk
In terms of clerical spells, Priest of Talos is usually regarded as the best class, although C/R is a famous winning combination, C/F and C/M being also very popular. Druids are just inferior clerics.
No, no, sorry but objectively druids are not defendable. That they have a few arrows in their quiver (figuratively), yes. That they can finish the game, yes. That many people would find them fun to play, yes. That they can compete with 80% of classes out there. No, just no.
@Durmir46 "I'm willing to keep an open mind" "objectively druids are not defendable" Hilarious.
Insect swarm is an "I win button". Like I said earlier, it wins 90% of encounters through the entire saga. Your Mage can't cast any spells through insect swarm. It goes off, you lose. Period. You also can't target anything when your mage is blinded by Nature's Beauty. If we are comparing classes, why include gear? Should a spellcaser be able to stand on its spells alone? Really onlt the HLA summon PLanetar outclasses Druis summons, anything else that can compete with the Fire Elemental runs the very real risk of also killing the caster.
Out of the list you have given, really only the Monk, Kensai/Thief, and Fighter Illusionist even stand a chance of surviving one cast of Insect Plague, and those classes are entirely crippled by nature's beauty.
@Arcanjo if you're struggling to make best use of a shaman, you might want to try a different class that's more straightforward to play. A lot of the tactics that have been discussed earlier in the thread are easier to put into practice when you're more familiar with how the game works.
@Durmir46 I think you're basing your views on what makes a good class on high level characters. I don't disagree that druids in ToB are not among the very strongest of classes, though they do have some pretty good points. However, there's an awful lot of the games to play before that. Their fast levelling helps make them outshine most classes in BG1 and early BG2. If you haven't tried playing a totemic druid solo before now you perhaps don't appreciate just what a strong character that is for most of the games.
I loved C/R, but they jumped and now I do not have any insect plague with him, basically they left my bad class!
I like to create monsters, but the Shaman is very difficult and full of problems in BG1, and from what I saw it does not improve much in BG2-Shado Of Amn. I do not know what to do with it to get better.
And I do not know what class could replace him. OBs: It seems that all invocations lose strength in the ToB.
- Call Woodland beings becomes less useful later in BG2, but is an incredibly good spell for it's level (which is 4, not 6). Most enemies will struggle to make all the saving throws required when targeted by a group of 5 of those..
Also worth pointing out that you now can tell them what to cast and they will do it. In the past (like the original games) they just dumbly followed a script and would outright ignore your commands.
I loved C/R, but they jumped and now I do not have any insect plague with him, basically they left my bad class!
@Arcanjo If you like to have the old "unfixed" C/R (like most of us do) that has access to all the druid spells, simply open the baldurs.ini file using some text editor (like Notepad or Wordpad) and change "Ranger Cleric spells, 1" to "Ranger Cleric spells, 0", and then save it.
Insect swarm is an "I win button". Like I said earlier, it wins 90% of encounters through the entire saga. Your Mage can't cast any spells through insect swarm. It goes off, you lose. Period.
Exactly so. People may forget about the sheer lethality of Insect Plague, because there are so few druid enemies in the game, and it is hardly ever used against you (only Faldorn in BG2 uses it against you). I remember playing an encounter in the Black Pits 2, where you have to face a dozen of lizard men, led by a lizard man shaman. It was a really, really tough battle for my solo sorcerer, because the lizard man shaman was always casting Insect Plague, and it was like a pit of quick sand. You are trapped in the swarm and can't cast anything, take continuous damage, and occasionally get spooked, while the lizard men finish you in a matter of time. He was also casting True Sight, so staying invisible was also difficult. I don't remember how I beat it, but it took a long time, and many retries. So, if anyone doesn't appreciate the power of Insect Plague, please try that battle with a solo (or even a group of) sorcerer/mage(s) (who relies entirely on spells, and so is like the vast majority of enemy mages in BG2), and you are sure to change your views (and realize how those poor fellows feel when you cast Insect Plague on them ).
@Durmir46 "I'm willing to keep an open mind" "objectively druids are not defendable" Hilarious.
Insect swarm is an "I win button". Like I said earlier, it wins 90% of encounters through the entire saga. Your Mage can't cast any spells through insect swarm. It goes off, you lose. Period. You also can't target anything when your mage is blinded by Nature's Beauty. If we are comparing classes, why include gear? Should a spellcaser be able to stand on its spells alone? Really onlt the HLA summon PLanetar outclasses Druis summons, anything else that can compete with the Fire Elemental runs the very real risk of also killing the caster.
Out of the list you have given, really only the Monk, Kensai/Thief, and Fighter Illusionist even stand a chance of surviving one cast of Insect Plague, and those classes are entirely crippled by nature's beauty.
Precisely: I am trying to keep an open mind, but even so I can't really find objective reasons to accept the druid as a top class. You read it right.
You guys focus on Insect Plague. Yes, IP is an awesome spell. I am not going to argue with that. It makes many difficult battles a cake walk, yes. Is it an "I win" button? No. IP just helps dispatching mages. It is certainly NOT the only way, nor is it the best. Mages are the most difficult ennemies (not druids interestingly... when ToB was designed with WK to include the nastiest stuff, druids were not even considered). But there are many ways to dispatch them. Starting with lvl1 mage spell Blindness and its great lvl2 upgrade Glitterdust. Later Breach is often enough, with a big ol'axe to the face. Mages on which it is not enough will usually laugh at IP as well. And IP is worthless against major ennemies such as dragons.
Plus, insisting on IP (which, again, is a great spell) makes druids sound like they are a 1-trick monkey. Druids have poor defense, poor fighter abilities and their magic is overall inferior to mages and even clerics. Druids do not even have Protection from Evil! Hold person is awesome (and another amazing mages disabler), and they can't cast it (they have berries instead!!!)! Remove fear is among the most useful spells in the game, both mages and clerics have it, but not druids! Where is chant, DoHM, silence (yet another mage disabler), animate dead, etc.?
How can you say druid overclasses sorcerers? Please explain to me. As well as Kensai -> Thief (just finished a walkthrough with this one, even on hard mode solo was obscenely easy)?
As for summons, the hakeashar is so much more useful than Fire Elemental. Fire Elemental is ok-ish, however you should not really need it unless your team is a bit weak (too many druids probably).
No, sorry, IP does not make it up for a slot in a team.
Many instill restrictions on their gameplay to add replay value, difficulty, RP sense it just for flavour.
I HATE resting, so Mages dont do well in my playbook. Sure they can use a wand, but a skald would fit better. I agree that a wellpacked spellbook with triggers and contingencies in the hand of a level 25+ mage with the robe of vecna is pretty solid - but fatigued and with an empty spellbook they just do wands... a shaman on other hand is far more appealing.
So as I see it, different playstyle and restrictions could mean that we see different solutions to the same problem. The totemic druid and shaman would be top tier for me, but not for others. And we can actually both be right as I see it.
And to answer the question: shamans are a great choice but they need the same care and insight as the mages - neither of them are weak, and played by the right person could be great.
I agree that shamans and druids can be picked if the purpose is to increase restrictions or add challenge. And tbh, I love playing my druid from time to time. It is fun and gives a different flavor. I just know I will be performing poorly, but sometimes kicking ass is not the only purpose of a game.
Now if you do not like resting, may I suggest a fighter? Or a ranger? Or a paladin? Or a monk? Or a thief?
Although I admit that removing spellcasting from shaman makes for a VERY nice challenge, I would love to see that.
Mages are good early, do not wait for lvl9 spells, they are deadly from the start. Sleep makes BG1 trivial, Glitterdust makes it laughable even through half of SoA. And that's just 2 low level spells. Time stop with Improved Alacrity is only during the last 25% of an entire walkthrough, although nothing in the game can possibly compete with that. It makes every single fight in the game a triviality even monkeys could manage on LoB. It's like playing with all cheats on at once.
Plus, insisting on IP (which, again, is a great spell) makes druids sound like they are a 1-trick monkey. Druids have poor defense, poor fighter abilities and their magic is overall inferior to mages and even clerics. Druids do not even have Protection from Evil! Hold person is awesome (and another amazing mages disabler), and they can't cast it (they have berries instead!!!)! Remove fear is among the most useful spells in the game, both mages and clerics have it, but not druids! Where is chant, DoHM, silence (yet another mage disabler), animate dead, etc.?
Let me first speak about Druids and Clerics:
Druids can cast Hold Person indirectly, albeit at a higher level (level 4), but they make up for it by being able to cast 2 of them by using a single spell slot. Yes, I'm talking about Call Woodland Beings. The Nymph summoned is actually more formidable than she appears. Let's have a look at her spellbook:
Barkskin (1) Call Lightning (1) Cause Serious Wounds (1) Confusion (1) Hold Person (2) Hold Monster (1) Mass Cure (1) Mental Domination (1) Miscast Magic (1)
Mental Domination and Cause Serious Wounds are cleric exclusive spells, but the nymph allows the Druid to get access to them. Clerics have to wait till they get level 7 spells to cast Confusion, but Druids can use it right when they get access to level 4 spells (in BGEE itself), and of course, Confusion is one of the best crowd control spells, more so early in the game. Clerics cannot cast Hold Monster, but the Druid gets it here. Druids effectively get Mass Cure at level 4, while Clerics get it at level 5. This means a lot, since in BGEE (XP cap 161,000), Clerics can only reach upto level 8, so no level 5 spells for them, and so no Mass Cure. As simple as that. These spells are the ones that matter the most, but the other ones (Call Lightning, Miscast Magic) are also sweet bonuses.
Not every class has access to every possible spell, but it doesn't mean that one is inferior than the other solely because of their mutually exclusive spell choices. Druids lack DuHM, Silence, Animate Dead, but at the same time, Clerics lack Entangle, Charm Person/Mammal, Call Lightning, IRON SKINS (that makes Clerics squishy at higher levels), Pixie Dust, FIRE SEEDS (these bypass Absolute Immunity, because they are +6 weapons! Clerics have nothing like this), Dolorous Decay, no-delay Conjure Fire and Earth Elementals, Nature's Beauty (the blinding effect is non-save-able and permanent), and of course, Insect Plague and it's big brother Creeping Doom. Of course, this doesn't mean that I'm saying Druids are better than Clerics (and nor the reverse), but that each of them can do things that the other cannot. Clerics also have many superb spells, which Druids can't use, but that doesn't necessarily make them better or worse.
Yes, IP is an awesome spell. I am not going to argue with that. It makes many difficult battles a cake walk, yes. Is it an "I win" button? No. IP just helps dispatching mages. It is certainly NOT the only way, nor is it the best. Mages are the most difficult ennemies (not druids interestingly... when ToB was designed with WK to include the nastiest stuff, druids were not even considered).
You say mages are the most difficult enemies, and also that the Druid's Insect Plague helps in dispatching those same mages, who are admittedly, the most difficult enemies. Isn't it strange that the so-called "weak" Druid makes short work of those powerful mages with a single spell? I've never seen a mage who can resist the effects of this particular spell. And that's why it is not just a, but it is the "I win" button against mages. Any enemy mage/sorcerer needs 9 units of time to cast Time Stop, but before that, within 5 units, the Druid unleashes the Insect Plague/Creeping Doom. The swarm hits the mage, his time stop fails, and he's dead. Game over.
Blindness or Glitterdust can help in battling mages, but can very easily be saved against. Insect Plague's spell failure effect is 100% and cannot be saved against. It chews through Stoneskins and inflicts continuous damage bypassing magical protections, and it does so without needing any use of Breach.
As for summons, the hakeashar is so much more useful than Fire Elemental. Fire Elemental is ok-ish, however you should not really need it unless your team is a bit weak (too many druids probably).
As for the Hakeashar, it's utility is only against enemy mages (useless against Divine casters), and even then it's nowhere near as powerful as Insect Plague. The Hakeashar's hits don't even do any damage and is so completely and totally useless against any enemies other than mages.
On the other hand, the Fire and Earth Elementals serve an all purpose utility against each and every kind of enemy, especially because they hit with +4 weapons. There are a large number of occasions where they save your party's life, and to reject them altogether is not a very good decision.
I know how powerful IP is. But again, it is not the only mage dispatcher in the game. Which makes it absolutely not mandatory.
Mages are the most powerful enemies in the game. Druids can beat them, but ANY class played by a skilled player can beat them! It is not an argument! If you could fight a human-played mage, I can guarantee you IP is not gonna get you anywhere. Invisibility will prevent IP long before you are done casting it, especially if put in a contigency. Now you need true sight before IP, you are long dead. And that is just normal casting times, no need for equipment. So yes, again, IP is great. But it is useful ONLY against computer-played mages (like hakeashars) and it is absolutely not required at all. To be fair in mage vs druid fight, please put a mage and a druid, same xp, against one another, both played by the computer. Hell, but anything else against a druid, the result will be the same.
Now why did I mention hakeashars? Precisely because enemy casters are the only reason why you need summons, and that includes dragons. If you need summons otherwise, then you need to revise your team, because something is wrong.
As for woodland beings, it is indeed an advantage of the druid towards BG1. That I concede. The advantage is lost in SoA, where potions are littered everywhere and nobody in their good mind will use spell slots for healing spells. It just does not make sense. Also in SoA clerics quickly catch up with the druids in leveling and the other nymph spells become irrelevant. Yes, the nymph is a clear advantage to the druid. But only during the last third of BG1...
I would not recommend using summons against anything that is not a caster. Summons make fights longer and messier, they use precious casting time, deal little damage overall and if you need them to soak up damage, then there is something wrong with your team. The exception here is the planetar, precisely because of their fantastic spells. But planetars come from mages.
In the meantime, a good mage played by a human will cast sleep and glitterdust along all BG1 and early SoA, will clean up with fireballs and skull traps early on, have fantastic buffs that make druids look like squishy squirrels, have a fantastic range of spells to control the battlefield, can kill dragons in 2 rounds, and can kill pretty much everything effortlessly from chapter 7 SoA until the end of the game, without the need for a team to support them anymore.
Mages and sorcerers just make the game cheesily easy all along. Druids offer a few tools, but they are nowhere close to other classes. They have poor defense, lack any fighter ability (waving a spear at a dragon is not going to help you) and their spellcasting, unlike for mages, do not make it up for these issues. There is a reason people say "if you really want a druid, multi it with a fighter", precisely because it makes up for some of the most glaring flaws of the druid.
Nothing makes druids important to have, and the very few advantages they may have are very situational. These advantages are just alternatives to other ways to deal with situations. Picking a class because it has situational advantage for 10% of an entire walkthrough is not enough to make it to any top5 list.
I know how powerful IP is. But again, it is not the only mage dispatcher in the game. Which makes it absolutely not mandatory.
Mages are the most powerful enemies in the game. Druids can beat them, but ANY class played by a skilled player can beat them! It is not an argument! If you could fight a human-played mage, I can guarantee you IP is not gonna get you anywhere. Invisibility will prevent IP long before you are done casting it, especially if put in a contigency. Now you need true sight before IP, you are long dead. And that is just normal casting times, no need for equipment.
@Durmir46 Ahem... I think you have not read the description of Insect Plague properly. For your convenience, I'm listing it here. You may verify it in-game.
"When this spell is cast by the priest, a horde of creeping, hopping, and flying insects gather and swarm. This swarm will jump first to the enemy target, then to the nearest allies of the target's, until up to 6 creatures have been affected. Spellcasting within the swarm is impossible (100% chance of spell failure). Creatures in the insect plague sustain 1 point of damage every 2 seconds they remain within regardless of their Armor Class, due to the bites and stings of the insects. Invisibility is no protection. Due to the suffocating nature of the writhing insect swarm, each victim must make a Saving Throw vs. Breath Weapon or run away in fear for 1 round."
So, still, it's a game over for the mage. Once Insect Plague is released nothing can save the mage. Alas, poor mage!
@Durmir46 Ahem... I think you have not read the description of Insect Plague properly. For your convenience, I'm listing it here. You may verify it in-game.
"When this spell is cast by the priest, a horde of creeping, hopping, and flying insects gather and swarm. This swarm will jump first to the enemy target, then to the nearest allies of the target's, until up to 6 creatures have been affected. Spellcasting within the swarm is impossible (100% chance of spell failure). Creatures in the insect plague sustain 1 point of damage every 2 seconds they remain within regardless of their Armor Class, due to the bites and stings of the insects. Invisibility is no protection. Due to the suffocating nature of the writhing insect swarm, each victim must make a Saving Throw vs. Breath Weapon or run away in fear for 1 round."
So, still, it's a game over for the mage. Once Insect Plague is released nothing can save the mage. Alas, poor mage!
And as was pointed out earlier in the thread insect plague can be cast on your own summons and guided into place using farsight without the mage even knowing he's being targeted. Neither movement nor invisibility will necessarily save a mage from being affected (nor will things like spell turning or deflection - magic resistance will block it, but that tends not to be something mages are good at). In both the cases of human vs human and computer vs computer it's not at all a foregone conclusion that a druid would lose to a mage (or any other class for that matter).
@Rik_Kirtaniya Thanks, I read your message, as soon as I can get my doubts about the choice of spells and why they are chosen in the Shaman, thank you, I think I'm having trouble just picking up wrong spells and no use in BG1. And I do not even know how to position myself, now that you've talked about the Nymphs I did not even get them. And then to other mistakes.
That is cute and all, but nothing here answers the key points.
So I will reformulate:
Imagine the following team: Dwarven Defender Fighter/Illusionist Fighter/Thief Sorcerer Cleric/Ranger Skald
If I wanted a druid (or a shaman), who should I replace in my team so that the newly formed team with my druid makes me feel like the game is easier and my team more "performant"? More importantly: why (objectively and taking into account an entire playthrough)? Feel free to specify, if necessary, a particular kit (or shaman). That includes dual/multi too.
That is cute and all, but nothing here answers the key points.
So I will reformulate:
Imagine the following team: Dwarven Defender Fighter/Illusionist Fighter/Thief Sorcerer Cleric/Ranger Skald
If I wanted a druid (or a shaman), who should I replace in my team so that the newly formed team with my druid makes me feel like the game is easier and my team more "performant"? More importantly: why (objectively and taking into account an entire playthrough)? Feel free to specify, if necessary, a particular kit (or shaman). That includes dual/multi too.
If your goal is to make a custom team out of the most broken classes in the game, then no, there's no place for a shaman on it.
There's also no room for any of the companion NPC's on that team.
That is cute and all, but nothing here answers the key points.
So I will reformulate:
Imagine the following team: Dwarven Defender Fighter/Illusionist Fighter/Thief Sorcerer Cleric/Ranger Skald
If I wanted a druid (or a shaman), who should I replace in my team so that the newly formed team with my druid makes me feel like the game is easier and my team more "performant"? More importantly: why (objectively and taking into account an entire playthrough)? Feel free to specify, if necessary, a particular kit (or shaman). That includes dual/multi too.
If your goal is to make a custom team out of the most broken classes in the game, then no, there's no place for a shaman on it.
There's also no room for any of the companion NPC's on that team.
No, my goal here is to demonstrate druids are not a top class. I believe your reply is very nice in that context.
I tried to, and my focus so far has been to demonstrate shamans are significantly less performing than the majority of classes. However my efforts seem to have been vain, so I thought I would get back to basics: druids are not a top class. Actually they are far from it. And druids can be better than shamans. Hence the conclusion: shamans are weak. Because I cannot explain with conceptual arguments (I must admit I am not very good at it), my conceptual arguments being systematically opposed by situational, inconsequential debatable small points, my goal here is that by staying high level, the flaws of the druid will appear obvious.
Trust me, I have not lost sight of the main question asked, here.
If we're using that party as our measuring stick, fighters, paladins, rangers, thieves, and even mages are "weak".
They can all be outpaced by your steroidal team with seventeen times the firepower you need to beat the game.
That's not true. People here say that druids are in the top 5 classes. It will therefore be easy for them to demonstrate a druid would overclass someone in the team (of 6), demonstrating shamans are a top class and therefore answering the question. I suggest we let them demonstrate that, in which case I will change my vote and a consensus will be found.
Yeah, I’d easily replace the Sorceror for the Shaman in your setup. You’re bringing in a melee focused team with two half-arcane casters, one half divine caster, and asking to get utterly thrashed the first Chaos that comes your way. Improved Haste is already covered by the F/I and the Skald, so I think a second divine caster would improve the strength of that group immensely.
Here’s another team that I think would work fairly decently with a shaman: Shaman Mage/Cleric Cavalier Bounty Hunter Wizard Slayer Enchanter
You can replace Shaman with any other druid variant, but the difference is mostly sideways and neither an upgrade or a downgrade.
Comments
Dance is just another tool in your bag of tricks, not the sole and central ability...although I suppose in BG1 you would be more prone than usual to running out of spells
There's always the fallback of chucking bullets daggers or axes at people~ works a lot better with 19str
For the record. Druid hits my list of top 5 best classes.
The point is, I have a brutal difficulty going Solo with my Shaman. I even added a Bard and a Cleriga to the Time, we are lv 4 ~ 5, nor does Drizzit kill (being that a dwarf fighter and dorn spy on him with good equipment) and the invocations neither in lv9 (They cause damage in the Drizzit).
If the army sucks by surprise in front of me I die because I even cast entangle, ice smoke, and the like. It already falls hard on the floor.
BG1 (How Solar?):
- What spells do I get?
- What equipment should I put into it?
- How to suppress his common problems (Summons)?
and in SoD and BG2 I have the same questions, because I want to zero everything with it.
I have viceroy (Cleriga) on the team and Garrick (Bardo) to help me and I do not want to have more than that (Viconia for a novel RP), the bard to buff and use spells (But honestly he does not help much, to remove). But I would like to go alone myself.
Mages have access to the very best summons in the game (HLA summon is obvious, but even cacofiend outclass every druid summon, as well as haekeshar), the very best buffs in the game and the very best offensive spells in the game (what about a triple skull trap in ya face through a nice spell trigger? and that's just a lvl 3 spell, don't start me on higher levels...).
You mention "top 5 best classes", explain how they beat the following 5 (I could add more, but let's keep to your number):
Fighter/Illusionist
Kensai->Thief
Sorcerer
Illusionist/Thief
Dark Moon Monk
In terms of clerical spells, Priest of Talos is usually regarded as the best class, although C/R is a famous winning combination, C/F and C/M being also very popular. Druids are just inferior clerics.
No, no, sorry but objectively druids are not defendable. That they have a few arrows in their quiver (figuratively), yes. That they can finish the game, yes. That many people would find them fun to play, yes. That they can compete with 80% of classes out there. No, just no.
Hilarious.
Insect swarm is an "I win button". Like I said earlier, it wins 90% of encounters through the entire saga. Your Mage can't cast any spells through insect swarm. It goes off, you lose. Period. You also can't target anything when your mage is blinded by Nature's Beauty. If we are comparing classes, why include gear? Should a spellcaser be able to stand on its spells alone? Really onlt the HLA summon PLanetar outclasses Druis summons, anything else that can compete with the Fire Elemental runs the very real risk of also killing the caster.
Out of the list you have given, really only the Monk, Kensai/Thief, and Fighter Illusionist even stand a chance of surviving one cast of Insect Plague, and those classes are entirely crippled by nature's beauty.
@Durmir46 I think you're basing your views on what makes a good class on high level characters. I don't disagree that druids in ToB are not among the very strongest of classes, though they do have some pretty good points. However, there's an awful lot of the games to play before that. Their fast levelling helps make them outshine most classes in BG1 and early BG2. If you haven't tried playing a totemic druid solo before now you perhaps don't appreciate just what a strong character that is for most of the games.
I like to create monsters, but the Shaman is very difficult and full of problems in BG1, and from what I saw it does not improve much in BG2-Shado Of Amn. I do not know what to do with it to get better.
And I do not know what class could replace him.
OBs: It seems that all invocations lose strength in the ToB.
You guys focus on Insect Plague.
Yes, IP is an awesome spell. I am not going to argue with that. It makes many difficult battles a cake walk, yes.
Is it an "I win" button? No. IP just helps dispatching mages. It is certainly NOT the only way, nor is it the best. Mages are the most difficult ennemies (not druids interestingly... when ToB was designed with WK to include the nastiest stuff, druids were not even considered). But there are many ways to dispatch them. Starting with lvl1 mage spell Blindness and its great lvl2 upgrade Glitterdust. Later Breach is often enough, with a big ol'axe to the face. Mages on which it is not enough will usually laugh at IP as well. And IP is worthless against major ennemies such as dragons.
Plus, insisting on IP (which, again, is a great spell) makes druids sound like they are a 1-trick monkey.
Druids have poor defense, poor fighter abilities and their magic is overall inferior to mages and even clerics. Druids do not even have Protection from Evil! Hold person is awesome (and another amazing mages disabler), and they can't cast it (they have berries instead!!!)! Remove fear is among the most useful spells in the game, both mages and clerics have it, but not druids! Where is chant, DoHM, silence (yet another mage disabler), animate dead, etc.?
How can you say druid overclasses sorcerers? Please explain to me. As well as Kensai -> Thief (just finished a walkthrough with this one, even on hard mode solo was obscenely easy)?
As for summons, the hakeashar is so much more useful than Fire Elemental. Fire Elemental is ok-ish, however you should not really need it unless your team is a bit weak (too many druids probably).
No, sorry, IP does not make it up for a slot in a team.
Many instill restrictions on their gameplay to add replay value, difficulty, RP sense it just for flavour.
I HATE resting, so Mages dont do well in my playbook. Sure they can use a wand, but a skald would fit better. I agree that a wellpacked spellbook with triggers and contingencies in the hand of a level 25+ mage with the robe of vecna is pretty solid - but fatigued and with an empty spellbook they just do wands... a shaman on other hand is far more appealing.
So as I see it, different playstyle and restrictions could mean that we see different solutions to the same problem. The totemic druid and shaman would be top tier for me, but not for others. And we can actually both be right as I see it.
And to answer the question: shamans are a great choice but they need the same care and insight as the mages - neither of them are weak, and played by the right person could be great.
Now if you do not like resting, may I suggest a fighter? Or a ranger? Or a paladin? Or a monk? Or a thief?
Although I admit that removing spellcasting from shaman makes for a VERY nice challenge, I would love to see that.
Mages are good early, do not wait for lvl9 spells, they are deadly from the start. Sleep makes BG1 trivial, Glitterdust makes it laughable even through half of SoA. And that's just 2 low level spells. Time stop with Improved Alacrity is only during the last 25% of an entire walkthrough, although nothing in the game can possibly compete with that. It makes every single fight in the game a triviality even monkeys could manage on LoB. It's like playing with all cheats on at once.
Druids can cast Hold Person indirectly, albeit at a higher level (level 4), but they make up for it by being able to cast 2 of them by using a single spell slot. Yes, I'm talking about Call Woodland Beings. The Nymph summoned is actually more formidable than she appears. Let's have a look at her spellbook:
Barkskin (1)
Call Lightning (1)
Cause Serious Wounds (1)
Confusion (1)
Hold Person (2)
Hold Monster (1)
Mass Cure (1)
Mental Domination (1)
Miscast Magic (1)
Mental Domination and Cause Serious Wounds are cleric exclusive spells, but the nymph allows the Druid to get access to them. Clerics have to wait till they get level 7 spells to cast Confusion, but Druids can use it right when they get access to level 4 spells (in BGEE itself), and of course, Confusion is one of the best crowd control spells, more so early in the game. Clerics cannot cast Hold Monster, but the Druid gets it here. Druids effectively get Mass Cure at level 4, while Clerics get it at level 5. This means a lot, since in BGEE (XP cap 161,000), Clerics can only reach upto level 8, so no level 5 spells for them, and so no Mass Cure. As simple as that. These spells are the ones that matter the most, but the other ones (Call Lightning, Miscast Magic) are also sweet bonuses.
Not every class has access to every possible spell, but it doesn't mean that one is inferior than the other solely because of their mutually exclusive spell choices. Druids lack DuHM, Silence, Animate Dead, but at the same time, Clerics lack Entangle, Charm Person/Mammal, Call Lightning, IRON SKINS (that makes Clerics squishy at higher levels), Pixie Dust, FIRE SEEDS (these bypass Absolute Immunity, because they are +6 weapons! Clerics have nothing like this), Dolorous Decay, no-delay Conjure Fire and Earth Elementals, Nature's Beauty (the blinding effect is non-save-able and permanent), and of course, Insect Plague and it's big brother Creeping Doom. Of course, this doesn't mean that I'm saying Druids are better than Clerics (and nor the reverse), but that each of them can do things that the other cannot. Clerics also have many superb spells, which Druids can't use, but that doesn't necessarily make them better or worse. You say mages are the most difficult enemies, and also that the Druid's Insect Plague helps in dispatching those same mages, who are admittedly, the most difficult enemies. Isn't it strange that the so-called "weak" Druid makes short work of those powerful mages with a single spell? I've never seen a mage who can resist the effects of this particular spell. And that's why it is not just a, but it is the "I win" button against mages. Any enemy mage/sorcerer needs 9 units of time to cast Time Stop, but before that, within 5 units, the Druid unleashes the Insect Plague/Creeping Doom. The swarm hits the mage, his time stop fails, and he's dead. Game over.
Blindness or Glitterdust can help in battling mages, but can very easily be saved against. Insect Plague's spell failure effect is 100% and cannot be saved against. It chews through Stoneskins and inflicts continuous damage bypassing magical protections, and it does so without needing any use of Breach. As for the Hakeashar, it's utility is only against enemy mages (useless against Divine casters), and even then it's nowhere near as powerful as Insect Plague. The Hakeashar's hits don't even do any damage and is so completely and totally useless against any enemies other than mages.
On the other hand, the Fire and Earth Elementals serve an all purpose utility against each and every kind of enemy, especially because they hit with +4 weapons. There are a large number of occasions where they save your party's life, and to reject them altogether is not a very good decision. Most people are willing to ditch other classes and get a druid just to get that Insect Plague. It's really that powerful.
Mages are the most powerful enemies in the game. Druids can beat them, but ANY class played by a skilled player can beat them! It is not an argument! If you could fight a human-played mage, I can guarantee you IP is not gonna get you anywhere. Invisibility will prevent IP long before you are done casting it, especially if put in a contigency. Now you need true sight before IP, you are long dead. And that is just normal casting times, no need for equipment.
So yes, again, IP is great. But it is useful ONLY against computer-played mages (like hakeashars) and it is absolutely not required at all. To be fair in mage vs druid fight, please put a mage and a druid, same xp, against one another, both played by the computer. Hell, but anything else against a druid, the result will be the same.
Now why did I mention hakeashars? Precisely because enemy casters are the only reason why you need summons, and that includes dragons. If you need summons otherwise, then you need to revise your team, because something is wrong.
As for woodland beings, it is indeed an advantage of the druid towards BG1. That I concede.
The advantage is lost in SoA, where potions are littered everywhere and nobody in their good mind will use spell slots for healing spells. It just does not make sense. Also in SoA clerics quickly catch up with the druids in leveling and the other nymph spells become irrelevant. Yes, the nymph is a clear advantage to the druid. But only during the last third of BG1...
I would not recommend using summons against anything that is not a caster. Summons make fights longer and messier, they use precious casting time, deal little damage overall and if you need them to soak up damage, then there is something wrong with your team. The exception here is the planetar, precisely because of their fantastic spells. But planetars come from mages.
In the meantime, a good mage played by a human will cast sleep and glitterdust along all BG1 and early SoA, will clean up with fireballs and skull traps early on, have fantastic buffs that make druids look like squishy squirrels, have a fantastic range of spells to control the battlefield, can kill dragons in 2 rounds, and can kill pretty much everything effortlessly from chapter 7 SoA until the end of the game, without the need for a team to support them anymore.
Mages and sorcerers just make the game cheesily easy all along. Druids offer a few tools, but they are nowhere close to other classes. They have poor defense, lack any fighter ability (waving a spear at a dragon is not going to help you) and their spellcasting, unlike for mages, do not make it up for these issues. There is a reason people say "if you really want a druid, multi it with a fighter", precisely because it makes up for some of the most glaring flaws of the druid.
Nothing makes druids important to have, and the very few advantages they may have are very situational. These advantages are just alternatives to other ways to deal with situations. Picking a class because it has situational advantage for 10% of an entire walkthrough is not enough to make it to any top5 list.
"When this spell is cast by the priest, a horde of creeping, hopping, and flying insects gather and swarm. This swarm will jump first to the enemy target, then to the nearest allies of the target's, until up to 6 creatures have been affected. Spellcasting within the swarm is impossible (100% chance of spell failure). Creatures in the insect plague sustain 1 point of damage every 2 seconds they remain within regardless of their Armor Class, due to the bites and stings of the insects. Invisibility is no protection. Due to the suffocating nature of the writhing insect swarm, each victim must make a Saving Throw vs. Breath Weapon or run away in fear for 1 round."
So, still, it's a game over for the mage. Once Insect Plague is released nothing can save the mage. Alas, poor mage!
@Artemius_I ninjaed me.
Thanks, I read your message, as soon as I can get my doubts about the choice of spells and why they are chosen in the Shaman, thank you, I think I'm having trouble just picking up wrong spells and no use in BG1. And I do not even know how to position myself, now that you've talked about the Nymphs I did not even get them. And then to other mistakes.
So I will reformulate:
Imagine the following team:
Dwarven Defender
Fighter/Illusionist
Fighter/Thief
Sorcerer
Cleric/Ranger
Skald
If I wanted a druid (or a shaman), who should I replace in my team so that the newly formed team with my druid makes me feel like the game is easier and my team more "performant"? More importantly: why (objectively and taking into account an entire playthrough)?
Feel free to specify, if necessary, a particular kit (or shaman). That includes dual/multi too.
There's also no room for any of the companion NPC's on that team.
The thread is "Is the shaman weak"
Any number of perfectly servicable classes would never make it into your party of peak performers.
I tried to, and my focus so far has been to demonstrate shamans are significantly less performing than the majority of classes. However my efforts seem to have been vain, so I thought I would get back to basics: druids are not a top class. Actually they are far from it. And druids can be better than shamans. Hence the conclusion: shamans are weak.
Because I cannot explain with conceptual arguments (I must admit I am not very good at it), my conceptual arguments being systematically opposed by situational, inconsequential debatable small points, my goal here is that by staying high level, the flaws of the druid will appear obvious.
Trust me, I have not lost sight of the main question asked, here.
They can all be outpaced by your steroidal team with seventeen times the firepower you need to beat the game.
I suggest we let them demonstrate that, in which case I will change my vote and a consensus will be found.
Here’s another team that I think would work fairly decently with a shaman:
Shaman
Mage/Cleric
Cavalier
Bounty Hunter
Wizard Slayer
Enchanter
You can replace Shaman with any other druid variant, but the difference is mostly sideways and neither an upgrade or a downgrade.