@ThacoBell Fair enough, but I stand by my statement that the Greater Doppleganger appearing as Elminster is evidence that dopplegangers don't have to kill someone to take their form.
That being said, the only instance of this is the Greater Doppleganger, so you may be right.
True, but Elminster also isn't a resident of Candlekeep and is never seen within its walls. Nobody would have interacted with him enough know sometihng was wrong, except for maybe poor Gorion. Though I would like to see a Doppleganer TRY to kill him.
I am with ZaramMaldovar on that - always though "something wrong" was about monks in the library - to point at the doppelgangers found right on the same floor, not the people around like Wintrop. And presence of Elminister and Gorion was (for me) an obvious clue that everything inside the dungeon is an illusion taken from your memories (with help of that special doppelganger posing as Elminister).
Every other time in the game when dopplegangers are impersonating somebody, the real people are already dead. It fits the pattern in literally the rest of the game. It takes more effort to stretch existing narratives to try and explain how these people coud still be alive.
Melyssan's betrayal. Definitely hadn't seen that coming, she looked so nice
I wish I could say this. Sadly, Bioware themselves had a promotional image on the official ToB site at the time of release called "amellysan.jpg" - I had that particular betrayal spoiled before ever even buying the game.
My own vote would be for Wellyn. Life is tragic enough for adults; it breaks my heart to think of a child, even a fictional one, having to try to understand life's cruelties.
@ThacoBell Fair enough, but I stand by my statement that the Greater Doppleganger appearing as Elminster is evidence that dopplegangers don't have to kill someone to take their form.
That being said, the only instance of this is the Greater Doppleganger, so you may be right.
True, but Elminster also isn't a resident of Candlekeep and is never seen within its walls. Nobody would have interacted with him enough know sometihng was wrong, except for maybe poor Gorion. Though I would like to see a Doppleganer TRY to kill him.
I am with ZaramMaldovar on that - always though "something wrong" was about monks in the library - to point at the doppelgangers found right on the same floor, not the people around like Wintrop. And presence of Elminister and Gorion was (for me) an obvious clue that everything inside the dungeon is an illusion taken from your memories (with help of that special doppelganger posing as Elminister).
On a subject - I feel as a cold blooded monster now, because I never though of BG as a sad story. Out of all suggestions Yoshimo's Betrayal for me was the most memorable and emotional, but far from "sad". This is probably the reason I like BG so much - no sadness, but action and determination. Or I am indeed heartless.
Funny thing about Yoshimo.
For years I never took him in my party after CI, just didn't like the character. Too smiley/creepy/bad accent. Always wondered why he died when you walk into the CC in chapter 6. TBH, thought it was down to some bug or the other, kind of, "that's odd." (I don't think I'm very curious sometimes)
Then my daughter played the game, and suddenly, there's this big twist/plot point/revelation that had completely passed me by. (much like the Sauguin, why would you get on the ship when there's a handy portal?)
So I always feel I've rather missed out on a very good bit of plotting/story. Still don't take him, still don't like him (after trying it a couple of times).
@ThacoBell Fair enough, but I stand by my statement that the Greater Doppleganger appearing as Elminster is evidence that dopplegangers don't have to kill someone to take their form.
That being said, the only instance of this is the Greater Doppleganger, so you may be right.
True, but Elminster also isn't a resident of Candlekeep and is never seen within its walls. Nobody would have interacted with him enough know sometihng was wrong, except for maybe poor Gorion. Though I would like to see a Doppleganer TRY to kill him.
I am with ZaramMaldovar on that - always though "something wrong" was about monks in the library - to point at the doppelgangers found right on the same floor, not the people around like Wintrop. And presence of Elminister and Gorion was (for me) an obvious clue that everything inside the dungeon is an illusion taken from your memories (with help of that special doppelganger posing as Elminister).
Every other time in the game when dopplegangers are impersonating somebody, the real people are already dead. It fits the pattern in literally the rest of the game. It takes more effort to stretch existing narratives to try and explain how these people coud still be alive.
Considering presence of Elminister ()and general DnD rules) - it does not stretch narratives too much. If those specific doppelgangers live in the dungeon, they can assume any form without raising an alarm. Monks upstairs is another thing. I suspect in that case we are dealing with another not-well-thought in time overlook, but I'd say hadcanon with "dungeon illusion" theory has enough fuel to work.
@Permidion_Stark I can't feel bad for Nexlit, she and her kin attacked the party without provocation just for walking near their home, and then had the gall to say the same thing about the party when all the party is doing is acting in self defense.
That being said, I always did find it simulatenously amusing (I hate those Xvarts) and frustrating (I always thought the Bear should be programmed to avoid attacking the Xvarts do to the dialogue Nexlit gives) that the Cave Bear turns around and attacks everything instead of actually protecting the Xvarts.
@ThacoBell I just can't agree with your theory, there are too many monks who seem aware that something is going on, and characters like Winthrop and Reevor act too much like themselves. These people aren't Skrulls from Marvel, they can't steal an entire person's identity, only their appearance. Otherwise the guy from Cloakwood and the Merchant's League (drawing a blank on his name) wouldn't have been suspicious of what's going on inside at all, because everything would seem normal. Of course he didn't know it was dopplegangers, but something seemed "off" and the same goes for the Seven Suns Trading Coster quest that Scar sends you on.
@Mirandel Keep in mind that Elminster is too freaking powerful to kill like that. Being the personal liason of Mystra will do that.
@ZaramMaldovar Remember Durlag's? An entire Dwarven Clan replaced right under the nose of its leader. He didn't know anything was wrong until he came after them. The Merchant's League didn't know anything was wrong until they seemed to start sabotaging their own business. The nobles at Sarevok's coronation went undetected for who knows how long. Its only obvious to charname because they are attacked almost on sight. Literally, every single other instance of doppelgangers involes the replaced being already dead. It makes zero sense to think that Candlekeep is the ONE PLACE where the dopplegangers decided to play nice with their victoms. Saying they only stayed in the dungeon doesn't work either, there is the replaced priest of Ohgma in the stables, and at least one of the Watcher's as well (probably most), as they specifically keep you out of the Barracks.
@Mirandel Keep in mind that Elminster is too freaking powerful to kill like that. Being the personal liason of Mystra will do that.
@ZaramMaldovar Remember Durlag's? An entire Dwarven Clan replaced right under the nose of its leader. He didn't know anything was wrong until he came after them. The Merchant's League didn't know anything was wrong until they seemed to start sabotaging their own business. The nobles at Sarevok's coronation went undetected for who knows how long. Its only obvious to charname because they are attacked almost on sight. Literally, every single other instance of doppelgangers involes the replaced being already dead. It makes zero sense to think that Candlekeep is the ONE PLACE where the dopplegangers decided to play nice with their victoms. Saying they only stayed in the dungeon doesn't work either, there is the replaced priest of Ohgma in the stables, and at least one of the Watcher's as well (probably most), as they specifically keep you out of the Barracks.
The point is, Elminister is alive, hence, doppelgangers do not need to kill those who they want to copy. Not to mention Gorion was not killed by a doppelganger, yet, one was able to assume his form (proving the point above and the point that we are dealing with illusions and mind reading).
There are so many things in BG that make zero sense, that insisting consistency on that particular point would be asking for too much, really. (Btw, it's not CARNAME who always can identify doppelgangers - there is always someone pointing CHARNAME to that. As Prda does in case of Candlekeep. And as far as I remember, he was talking only about monks for that very game reason - to point us to present doppelgangers).
@ThacoBell I'm not saying you're wrong, because obviously we can't know for sure what went down in Candlekeep, I'm just saying that based mostly on the establishment that Dopplegangers don't have to kill someone to copy them, it's entirely possible that Winthrop and Co. are still alive.
I'll give you that at least a few of Candlekeep's higher ups were most certainly killed and replaced by dopplegangers, except for those such as Tethoril and Ulraunt who would have been too powerful to pull that off.
Realistically, though, if you're a doppelganger trying to take someone's place, killing off the real person is extremely important to tie up loose ends.
That's my point. We see that Elminster as the only survivor (because he is) simply because he is too powerful to put down. His survival has zero bearing on the survival of every other victim. Every scenario the game puts forth points to the people from Candlekeep being killed then replaced, as with every other doppleganger situation in the game. There is zero evidence, context, patterns, or suggestions that Candlekeep alone survived.
Re: Did the dopplegangers kill all those they impersonated.
Well I would have thought that massive pile of bodies you come across in the catacombs tends to point to that they did. It's really quite excessive. There's a reason for them being there, I think the game wants you to understand that everybody you knew is dead.
One of the things I really wanted to see in SOD was what Candlekeep is like now.
The whole "expensive/rare book" thing has always been a bit silly, totally impractical and unworkable. You leave, after growing up there, yep got to have a book?? Hull fancies a vacation at the seaside....loses his job?
N'ere do wells turn up, "Oh you have a book, come right in".
Reckon the TPTB would have had words to say about that rule carrying on after it didn't stop a bunch of Dopplegangers wiping out what was basically their top Uni.
@UnderstandMouseMagic I always thought that the bodies and undead in the catacombs were just for a creepy atmosphere because "Creepy Dungeon Catacombs=Undead Monsters and Bodies" seems to be a Baldur's Gate cliche, but that's actually a solid defense of the "Dopplegangers killed Everyone" scenario.
I still don't choose to agree with that theory, but you and @ThacoBell make solid arguments for it.
@UnderstandMouseMagic I always thought that the bodies and undead in the catacombs were just for a creepy atmosphere because "Creepy Dungeon Catacombs=Undead Monsters and Bodies" seems to be a Baldur's Gate cliche, but that's actually a solid defense of the "Dopplegangers killed Everyone" scenario.
I still don't choose to agree with that theory, but you and @ThacoBell make solid arguments for it.
Too many flies....those corpses are fresh.
(And that's the first time I realised that as I was thinking about it. It's a "nice" detail)
Gorion for sure. Fate of Ajantis in BG2 is quite sad too - and you need Keldorn to realize this.. I always give money to the temple of Helm to pay for raising him and his buddies if my charname is good. But saddest moment is fate of poor smelly Uncle Lester of course
Dopplegangers does not gain the abilities of those they copy. So, for sure, at the point of your capture, in the very least the Gatewarden and the headmaster (who teleports you to the dungeon) is still alive. Once outside, the Keeper will not attack you, suggesting either he is not a doppleganger or is a doppleganger but to scared to attack you. The game does not really tell you whether the survivors (such as the Gatewarden) managed to uncover the plot and fight of the threat or if the dopplegangers vent on to slay all after your escape... or if perhaps the dopplegangers descended upon the catacombs once you were teleported there, only to be slaughtered to the last ma... err... abomination. (Because lol dopplegangers are stooopid. They are pushovers and can really only kill fighters using the element of surprise. Thus, jumping Gorions ward would be a kind of suicide attack, only they are to stupid to realize that's what it is.) Also, there really is no reason for the doppplegangers to remain in Candlekeep after Gorions ward escapes because the entire point of them being there is 1) to recover Alandos prophecies and any other Bhaal related books and 2) to create a death trap for Gorions Ward. Now, to be fair, Sarevok is a tad bloodthirsty, so he might have ordered that everyone in Candlekeep should die out of spite, but other than that, it is possible that the dopplegangers simply just leave Candlekeep once Gorions Ward have escaped because, you know, mission accomplished failed. Thus, I would not say it is impossible that some of the residents of Candlekeep survived.
In BG2, in one of the dreams, Sarevok mentions how he put Candlekeep to the torch. But then again, this is just the ghost of Bhaal trying to provoke you into murdering people and turning into the slayer as much as you possibly can, likely because this somehow gives him more power or something. Or because he is bored, who knows?
@DrakeICN I'm not saying that everyone in Candlekeep is dead. I'm saying that every person that was copied by the dopplegangers (exclding Elminster) is dead.
@DrakeICN I'm not saying that everyone in Candlekeep is dead. I'm saying that every person that was copied by the dopplegangers (exclding Elminster) is dead.
Don't forget Tethtoril. There is no way he died, he is supposed to be one of the hardest to kill people in the Realms.
@DrakeICN I'm not saying that everyone in Candlekeep is dead. I'm saying that every person that was copied by the dopplegangers (exclding Elminster) is dead.
Don't forget Tethtoril. There is no way he died, he is supposed to be one of the hardest to kill people in the Realms.
You'll notice I said, "Of those replaced." At no point do we encounter a doppleganger Tethtoril. @ZaramMaldovar is correct, this has gotten too de-raily.
At no point do we encounter a doppleganger Tethtoril.
I'm pretty sure "Tethtoril" is in the catocombs with "Gorion" and "Elminster".
And back to the topic, I'd probably go with Yoshimo's death in the original game. But with SoD, Khalid and Dynaheir became pretty likeable, so their deaths have more impact.
Comments
My own vote would be for Wellyn. Life is tragic enough for adults; it breaks my heart to think of a child, even a fictional one, having to try to understand life's cruelties.
(Edit: wait, did I already vote? Weird.)
Funny thing about Yoshimo.
For years I never took him in my party after CI, just didn't like the character. Too smiley/creepy/bad accent. Always wondered why he died when you walk into the CC in chapter 6. TBH, thought it was down to some bug or the other, kind of,
"that's odd."
(I don't think I'm very curious sometimes)
Then my daughter played the game, and suddenly, there's this big twist/plot point/revelation that had completely passed me by.
(much like the Sauguin, why would you get on the ship when there's a handy portal?)
So I always feel I've rather missed out on a very good bit of plotting/story. Still don't take him, still don't like him (after trying it a couple of times).
I suspect in that case we are dealing with another not-well-thought in time overlook, but I'd say hadcanon with "dungeon illusion" theory has enough fuel to work.
I can't feel bad for Nexlit, she and her kin attacked the party without provocation just for walking near their home, and then had the gall to say the same thing about the party when all the party is doing is acting in self defense.
That being said, I always did find it simulatenously amusing (I hate those Xvarts) and frustrating (I always thought the Bear should be programmed to avoid attacking the Xvarts do to the dialogue Nexlit gives) that the Cave Bear turns around and attacks everything instead of actually protecting the Xvarts.
@ThacoBell
I just can't agree with your theory, there are too many monks who seem aware that something is going on, and characters like Winthrop and Reevor act too much like themselves. These people aren't Skrulls from Marvel, they can't steal an entire person's identity, only their appearance. Otherwise the guy from Cloakwood and the Merchant's League (drawing a blank on his name) wouldn't have been suspicious of what's going on inside at all, because everything would seem normal. Of course he didn't know it was dopplegangers, but something seemed "off" and the same goes for the Seven Suns Trading Coster quest that Scar sends you on.
@ZaramMaldovar Remember Durlag's? An entire Dwarven Clan replaced right under the nose of its leader. He didn't know anything was wrong until he came after them. The Merchant's League didn't know anything was wrong until they seemed to start sabotaging their own business. The nobles at Sarevok's coronation went undetected for who knows how long. Its only obvious to charname because they are attacked almost on sight. Literally, every single other instance of doppelgangers involes the replaced being already dead. It makes zero sense to think that Candlekeep is the ONE PLACE where the dopplegangers decided to play nice with their victoms. Saying they only stayed in the dungeon doesn't work either, there is the replaced priest of Ohgma in the stables, and at least one of the Watcher's as well (probably most), as they specifically keep you out of the Barracks.
There are so many things in BG that make zero sense, that insisting consistency on that particular point would be asking for too much, really.
(Btw, it's not CARNAME who always can identify doppelgangers - there is always someone pointing CHARNAME to that. As Prda does in case of Candlekeep. And as far as I remember, he was talking only about monks for that very game reason - to point us to present doppelgangers).
I'm not saying you're wrong, because obviously we can't know for sure what went down in Candlekeep, I'm just saying that based mostly on the establishment that Dopplegangers don't have to kill someone to copy them, it's entirely possible that Winthrop and Co. are still alive.
I'll give you that at least a few of Candlekeep's higher ups were most certainly killed and replaced by dopplegangers, except for those such as Tethoril and Ulraunt who would have been too powerful to pull that off.
Complete agreement, however I'd like to see a doppleganger TRY to kill Elminster. The guy is like Magic Jesus
Re: Did the dopplegangers kill all those they impersonated.
Well I would have thought that massive pile of bodies you come across in the catacombs tends to point to that they did. It's really quite excessive.
There's a reason for them being there, I think the game wants you to understand that everybody you knew is dead.
One of the things I really wanted to see in SOD was what Candlekeep is like now.
The whole "expensive/rare book" thing has always been a bit silly, totally impractical and unworkable. You leave, after growing up there, yep got to have a book??
Hull fancies a vacation at the seaside....loses his job?
N'ere do wells turn up, "Oh you have a book, come right in".
Reckon the TPTB would have had words to say about that rule carrying on after it didn't stop a bunch of Dopplegangers wiping out what was basically their top Uni.
I always thought that the bodies and undead in the catacombs were just for a creepy atmosphere because "Creepy Dungeon Catacombs=Undead Monsters and Bodies" seems to be a Baldur's Gate cliche, but that's actually a solid defense of the "Dopplegangers killed Everyone" scenario.
I still don't choose to agree with that theory, but you and @ThacoBell make solid arguments for it.
(And that's the first time I realised that as I was thinking about it. It's a "nice" detail)
accomplishedfailed. Thus, I would not say it is impossible that some of the residents of Candlekeep survived.In BG2, in one of the dreams, Sarevok mentions how he put Candlekeep to the torch. But then again, this is just the ghost of Bhaal trying to provoke you into murdering people and turning into the slayer as much as you possibly can, likely because this somehow gives him more power or something. Or because he is bored, who knows?
Yes, but already mentioned that.
In any case, I feel like this argument has taken over the thread? Perhaps we could just go back to talking about other tragic moments in the series?
Wait, really?
And back to the topic, I'd probably go with Yoshimo's death in the original game. But with SoD, Khalid and Dynaheir became pretty likeable, so their deaths have more impact.
I don't like Corwin, but that is very true. Her backstory is very emotional
Hmmmmmmmmm...........
(nope, not going there, they already think I'm a psychopath...)