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"Maybe this time" [NO-RELOAD THREAD]: "The Tale of TEN THOUSAND Trials"

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  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,238
    Enuhal said:

    @lroumen I keep an up-to-date list with this information. It doesn't include dual-classes, because the number of possible combinations (with specific levels of dual-classing) would simply be too high:

    Classes and kits still missing from the combined Hall of Heroes:

    Ranger
    Stalker
    Undead Hunter
    Cleric
    Priest of Helm
    Priest of Talos
    Priest of Tempus
    Priest of Tyr
    Shapeshifter
    Avenger
    All Specialist Mages (except Wild Mage and Enchanter)
    Thief
    Bounty Hunter
    Shadow Dancer
    Bard
    Dark Moon Monk
    Shaman
    Fighter/Druid (has been done as a dual, but not as a multi)
    Cleric/Ranger

    Interesting list... Should Fighter/Thief multi not be on it? I remember Golden_28 from the Bioware forums completing the trilogy with a Fighter/Thief dual (I think Kensai lvl 9 -> Thief). So like the Fighter/Druid multi, I think the Fighter/Thief multi is still up for grabs for those who like to be the first with a class.
    Grond0 said:

    Amazing roll @Blackraven - look after him o:).

    Will do my best... :wink:
    Grond0 said:


    It doesn't seem a lot for a critical hit - I think Monty could manage that against anyone, but Tarnesh may not have had a melee weapon equipped (in that case damage would be less than average).

    How? Short sword is 1d6. Would max damage not be 26: (1d6+1)*2 +1d6*2?
    The first multiplication is for the critical hit, it includes Monty's +1 damage bonus for his 16 strength. The second multiplication is the double damage backstab modifier which, afaik, know doesn't include bonus strength damage.

    StummvonBordwehr
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,238
    Borco said:

    Not unexpectedly, the bouncing Lightning Bolt eliminates Xan together with the remaining kobolds. According to jurisprudence, this might qualify as indirectly willful act, but for us it's just force majeure - an act of god.

    Very nice! :D Good luck with your ungodly halfling!

    Best of luck to @Neverused and @Grondo too. And a belated "nice to see you back" to @Flashburn. Glad to see your crew still going.

    Grond0FlashburnBorcoCrevsDaak
  • EnuhalEnuhal Member Posts: 491
    @Blackraven You're right. Fighter/Thief is missing from my list. Very strange... Over the years, I've double-checked it about 4 times, yet, somehow, I seem to have missed that one. Thanks!

    BlackravenCorey_RussellGrond0CrevsDaak
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 13,890
    Montaron's backstab is possible if Tarnesh were not wielding a melee weapon, in which case Montaron would get a +4 bonus to hit and damage. If Monty rolled a 5 on his 1d6, then Tarnesh's lack of a melee weapon would bump it up to 9, and the 4x multiplier would bump that up to 28. His STR bonus of +1 would be doubled by the critical hit but not multiplied by the backstab, so that 28 would go up to 30.

    I don't know why Tarnesh wouldn't be wielding his normal staff, though.

    BlackravenStummvonBordwehrCrevsDaak
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,238

    Montaron's backstab is possible if Tarnesh were not wielding a melee weapon, in which case Montaron would get a +4 bonus to hit and damage. If Monty rolled a 5 on his 1d6, then Tarnesh's lack of a melee weapon would bump it up to 9, and the 4x multiplier would bump that up to 28. His STR bonus of +1 would be doubled by the critical hit but not multiplied by the backstab, so that 28 would go up to 30.

    I don't know why Tarnesh wouldn't be wielding his normal staff, though.

    You're right. I thought @Grond0 was suggesting 30 damage could be expected against any foe that's not protected against crits, even if they do wield a weapon.

    Wise_Grimwald
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,451
    edited January 18

    Grond0 said:


    It doesn't seem a lot for a critical hit - I think Monty could manage that against anyone, but Tarnesh may not have had a melee weapon equipped (in that case damage would be less than average).

    How? Short sword is 1d6. Would max damage not be 26: (1d6+1)*2 +1d6*2?
    The first multiplication is for the critical hit, it includes Monty's +1 damage bonus for his 16 strength. The second multiplication is the double damage backstab modifier which, afaik, know doesn't include bonus strength damage.
    I was assuming that Montaron was an assassin in your installation. Looking back at the screenshot you posted he was shown as attacking with a +5 modifier - if he wasn't using a magic sword (which would give its own damage bonus), then is that not the result of the +4 from stealth and +1 from assassin? That +1 bonus would be multiplied 4 times to push your 26 calculation up to 30.

    BlackravensemiticgodStummvonBordwehrCrevsDaak
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,451
    edited January 18
    Neverused said:

    Oof, LoB with all arcane sounds like it'd take so long...

    LoB with any party is going to be a long business and I think it's true that the mages are slightly slower early on than a party of fighters (that I've also done). However, I think they will gain that time back once they start using things that allow automatic hits - like web, hold, chromatic orb and paralyzation.

    Best of luck with your poverty run. Your group is virtually the same as the one I've tried a number of times - I just had a totemic druid in place of your shapeshifter to fighter.

    BlackravenWise_GrimwaldCrevsDaak
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,238
    edited January 18
    That makes sense @Grond0. Montaron is not an Assassin in my install, just a regular Fighter/Thief. I finally figured it out though, he got his +1 to hit from being specialized in short swords, and +2 damage as well...

    Grond0semiticgodCrevsDaak
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 13,890
    @Enuhal: I notice that a cleric/ranger is missing from the Hall of Heroes, but I thought you completed a solo tetralogy run with a cleric/ranger some time ago. Am I misremembering?

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,451
    Neverused said:

    A rest-interrupt of around 15 kobolds all deciding to target my main character spells a quick doom to my poverty run. I'll be restarting from chapter 1 again... It's not too bad, since my shapeshifter was rolling terribly for health, and she's the only one supposed to be taking hits.

    Until you've got invisibility, I think you really need to do your wilderness resting at the edge of a map so you can run away if necessary.

    semiticgodWise_GrimwaldCrevsDaak
  • NeverusedNeverused Member Posts: 711
    @Grond0 I was at the edge of the map, but a slight delay in pathing meant that I didn't get to the transition screen before I was turned into a pincushion. Adding Barkskin before resting or some such spell should help significantly though.

    BlackravenGrond0Wise_GrimwaldCrevsDaak
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 13,890
    I just lost a solo mage run at the Ducal Palace. I don't know how exactly it went wrong, but I think Liia Jannath got confused by a Chaos spell from the doppelganger mage, and then attacked Sarevok, turning him hostile and causing him to attack her back, killing her in two hits.

    Anybody ever see this happening before? Liia Jannath is still bugged to cast no spells during the fight in my install, but this time, her bugged status doesn't stop her from breaking invisibility (I cast Invisibility on her at the start of the fight) when she gets confused. It seems like the only way I could have prevented this would be to go all-out on the charm offensive and use Algernon's Cloak to draw some or all of the doppelgangers into one room, a safe distance from Liia Jannath. I wasn't aware that a Chaos spell could actually prompt her into breaking invisibility; I've never seen this happen, nor can I recall hearing about it.

    Come to think of it, why not charm Liia Jannath herself and park her in a corner somewhere? I think you could get within range of charming her without getting close enough to Sarevok to start the dialog, and if you shoved her in a corner, she would be out of range of any Chaos spells and so forth that the mage might throw out.

    EnuhalStummvonBordwehrCrevsDaak
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 13,890
    I was using the Green Soul kit in the hopes of getting a strong disabler-focused mage for BG2 and ToB, but the kit is kind of mediocre in BG1, at least for a solo character. Dealing half damage with Wands of Fire is a huge disadvantage for a solo mage, and I don't think the 50% extra duration for mage spells made much of a difference. Most level 1-5 mage spells with durations don't gain much from additional duration, since disablers already mean death, whether it's being held for 10 rounds or 15 rounds. It's not until BG2 when extra duration makes a big impact with spells like Animate Dead, Spell Immunity, PFMW, Improved Haste, Mislead, Mordenkainen's Sword, Mass Invisibility, Power Word: Blind, Maze (possibly), Time Stop, and Improved Alacrity.

    BlackravenGrond0StummvonBordwehrCrevsDaak
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 13,890
    @Flashburn: Good luck! That's a hideous fight, but you've got an excellent party with the levels to handle the challenge. Give us lots of screenshots! I want to know exactly how you tackled that obstacle.

  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,238
    @semiticgod

    A solo mage in the hall would be great!

    Sorry about the Ducal Palace. It's one of the many challenges for that type of character. I've never seen Liia affected by Chaos but it would nevertheless be consistent with my own experiences. I've seen her revealed (after being made invisible by me) when the mage or the shaman cast a detection spell to reveal my character, so it's not only damage spells that seem to affect her.

    As for the Green Soul kit, lower level spells like Spook PfE, Haste (great for summons), MGoI, Improved Invisibility, Domination, Chaos all seem to benefit greatly from double duration.
    Wouldn't the way around the kit disadvantage be to use other means of hurting foes than spell damage, such as using longer lasting summons, disablers as you said, and buffs/polymorphs to deal physical damage? Also, have you tried the scorcher function of the wand of fire? It may deal half damage but does it have double duration (four scorchers per charge rather than two)? When buffed and hasted, it should allow you to hit many foes with one scorcher.

    @Flashburn, best of luck with that!

    Grond0StummvonBordwehrCrevsDaak
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,451
    @semiticgod I would be reluctant to charm Liia. I think even trying that by spell would turn her hostile in my installation. Trying by cloak would not, but she would go hostile when the effect ended - and I've been auto-killed in that situation. I do remember one post in this thread from someone who managed to get her to do her closing dialogue despite her being hostile, so you might get lucky, but it seems chancy to me. If you're going to use charms, then doing that to the dopplegangers (like the mage) would seem the safer option.

    StummvonBordwehrWise_GrimwaldCrevsDaak
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,451
    edited January 19
    Neverused said:

    @Grond0 I was at the edge of the map, but a slight delay in pathing meant that I didn't get to the transition screen before I was turned into a pincushion. Adding Barkskin before resting or some such spell should help significantly though.

    @Neverused that type of thing happens to me when my caution starts to break down a bit - resting just too far away, not arranging my positioning correctly or not pausing immediately after rest to see if there's an ambush (I don't use autopause, but that would be better in this situation if you allow that). My experience is that resting is totally safe if I do take the proper care (though a rest ambush followed by a travel ambush can be a problem in some situations), but if you wanted to provide a bit of extra protection you could get your shaman to dance up some summons before trying to rest.

    BlackravenWise_GrimwaldCrevsDaak
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 13,890
    @Blackraven: The revised version of the Green Soul kit doesn't get double duration for spells; it only gets +50% duration. I've incorporated polymorph spells and disablers into my strategy (we dual-wielded daggers during Web and Hold Person a lot), but Wands of Fire (which I usually used for the Agannazar's Schorcher charges) were much more efficient even when they dealt half damage.

    Summons in BG1 generally don't last much longer than their actual duration because they're so easy to kill. The sole exception was Animate: since it could last 12 hours instead of 8, they could persist across two rest periods.

    Buffs in BG1 don't do much for a solo mage with access to only very weak summons. A longer-lasting Improved Invisibility makes little difference when the enemy can still cut through your Mirror Images if you don't disable dangerous enemies early, and since you need level 2 spell slots for Invisibility as an escape option, Mirror Image as a defensive buff, and Web as a disabler, the extra duration doesn't buy much more durability for a solo, single-classed mage.

    The increased duration does not influence the Agannazar's Scorcher's typical two-hit effect, which is determined by the spell's projectile. The duration modifier opcode only changes the duration of a spell effect; it does not alter projectile behavior. For the same reasons, a Green Soul mage's Web doesn't persist for 20 rounds--the field lasts for 10 rounds, but the duration of each round's web effect lasts for 9 seconds instead of 6 on a failed save. The duration modifier also doesn't affect "Delayed" action effects, so it doesn't change the duration of Melf's Acid Arrow in any way.

    StummvonBordwehrWise_GrimwaldCrevsDaak
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,238

    Buffs in BG1 don't do much for a solo mage with access to only very weak summons. A longer-lasting Improved Invisibility makes little difference when the enemy can still cut through your Mirror Images if you don't disable dangerous enemies early, and since you need level 2 spell slots for Invisibility as an escape option, Mirror Image as a defensive buff, and Web as a disabler, the extra duration doesn't buy much more durability for a solo, single-classed mage.

    I hear most of what you said, except perhaps the above. If you level up fast with the easy quests (basilisks, ankhegs, non-ranged enemies, 'talk quests') you shouldn't take long in reaching level 7. With Ghost Armor (AC3, found in ankheg cave) or Spirit Armor (AC1, Ulgoth's Beard), 18 DEX (-4), PfE (-2), Blur (-3), Claw of Kazgaroth (-1/-4 against missiles), an amulet of protection (-1), the cloak of displacement (-4 against missiles), senses of the cat boots (-5 against missiles) you'd have AC -8 or -10 against any melee weapon type, and -20 or -22 against missiles. You can swap AC belts for an extra -3, and use MI and Stoneskin for those rare instances you do get hit.

    I imagine Siege of Dragonspear to be harder because of the masses of enemies, something you don't encounter as much in BG1 (the bandit camp comes to mind and indeed the doppelgangers).

    StummvonBordwehrWise_GrimwaldCrevsDaak
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