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Can this game be beat in the Legacy of Bhaal difficulty mode without cheese or exploits?

Assuming you are starting out with a single level 1 character, recruiting npc companions to bolster your ranks, like you normally do, and not by making a full custom made party of level 8 killing machines right from the get go. Or is LOB itself so noncanon and cheesy that you are kinda "supposed" to cheese through it?

Comments

  • Grond0Grond0 Member, Moderator Posts: 4,869
    It's certainly possible. If you use the right tactics it's not even that difficult, but I guess views on what tactics constitute cheese will vary widely. This thread is about playing solo and with SCS, but you will still see plenty of ideas that you could adopt for party play if you wanted to.

    StummvonBordwehrJuliusBorisovsemiticgod
  • AaezilAaezil Member Posts: 149
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,245
    Can this game be beat in the Legacy of Bhaal difficulty mode without cheese or exploits?

    starting at level 1?

    no

    this difficulty was never intended on being in the BG series, since there is no "new game plus" type stuff that IWD has

    on core difficulty there should not be a single fight that you can win requiring cheese tactics

    on insane difficulty, there a very few fights that still require some cheese to do so

    in my opinion, a fight that isn't considered cheese is;

    you had a scout to look ahead for you to see what is coming up next

    you cast preparation buff spells as need be

    and then you fight said fight casting more spells and using items as need be

    and at the end of the fight, whatever the result, that is what you get

    exploiting AI, exploiting game mechanics that aren't intentional ( aka blinding a thief so you can use traps in battle ), meta gaming hard, save/reload scumming are all cheese type tactics

    with LoB the main killer in that scenario is the arduous amount of HP that enemies have, i believe the formula is x3+80 which is just obtuse, back can make the game harder because hard hitting enemies will live longer, but by the end of the day i find it so boring, especially when you are a massive warrior swinging a mighty sword and the lowliest of kobolds it taking hits to the face like a champ.... lol?

    but with that said, from as far as i can tell, through out the whole BG series ( not including SoD because i haven't played that game enough to know ) on insane difficulty, there is perhaps only a small handful of battles that require cheese tactics to win ( the abizigal fight in ToB for instance ) and perhaps the kangaxx fight as well ( once you become immune to imprisonment that battle is laughable, but if you aren't immune to imprisonment then that battle can be nigh impossible )

    my thinking is that the bg series was made to be "no reload" type runs, just like in PnP, although the game does autosave in case you get a total party wipe out and you really like that team, so then you can just load back, because even the game knows it can be unfair sometimes with just a few bad rolls of the dice

    i remember the first time i ever played BG1 back in '99 the only time i saved the game was when i was ready to quit ( which i never wanted to do, because i was so obsessed heh ) and the only time i reloaded the game was when my top character got killed, other than that it was complete blind runnin whatever happened is what happened, best part was, the game was set to the highest difficulty and even that didn't slow me down from liking the game so much back in those days

    mashedtaters
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,245
    I like cheese.

    marble cheese is my favourite :)

    mashedtaters
  • Grond0Grond0 Member, Moderator Posts: 4,869
    sarevok57 wrote: »
    in my opinion, a fight that isn't considered cheese is;

    you had a scout to look ahead for you to see what is coming up next

    you cast preparation buff spells as need be

    and then you fight said fight casting more spells and using items as need be

    and at the end of the fight, whatever the result, that is what you get

    exploiting AI, exploiting game mechanics that aren't intentional ( aka blinding a thief so you can use traps in battle ), meta gaming hard, save/reload scumming are all cheese type tactics

    That seems to be a rather narrow view of the 'correct' way to play the game. I know for instance some people dislike kiting of enemies on the grounds it's too boring or time-consuming, but it's not in the least cheesy in the sense of exploiting game mechanics (you're just sensibly exploiting the weaknesses of particular enemies).

    The idea of not exploiting meta-knowledge also seems a bit questionable to me. A lot of encounters in the game are staged, non-random ones and the presence of those people would be well known in surrounding areas (in a few cases the game actually signals this, e.g. for Bassilus). Is it really so unreasonable that a party of adventurers would have been asking around for information about what to expect?

  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 963
    @Grond0 I am not sure what your point is, regarding kiting. When you are wearing the Boots of Speed and using ranged weapons, the only real weakness of the AI that comes into play is the fact that they cannot give up. It is not cheesy to use cheap tactics.

    I agree with your other point about meta knowledge. But it is muddy water, trying to discern for yourself what information your character ought to have and what information you really want them to have.

  • Grond0Grond0 Member, Moderator Posts: 4,869
    @Humanoid_Taifun I was saying that kiting should not be regarded as cheese - a view you appear to agree with ;).

  • OlvynChuruOlvynChuru Member Posts: 1,951
    Ghamarro wrote: »
    Assuming you are starting out with a single level 1 character, recruiting npc companions to bolster your ranks, like you normally do, and not by making a full custom made party of level 8 killing machines right from the get go. Or is LOB itself so noncanon and cheesy that you are kinda "supposed" to cheese through it?

    I think that when Black Isle made Icewind Dale 1's Heart of Fury mode (the predecessor to BGEE's Legacy of Bhaal mode), they did not intend the party to start at level 1. The config description says this:

    fuirv25llaey.png

    The equivalent description for Icewind Dale 2's Heart of Fury mode says the same thing, except that your party should be levels 15+. Black Isle most likely intended you to import a party of high-level killing machines to Heart of Fury mode, as even with such a party, Icewind Dale 2's Heart of Fury mode is far from easy.

    So I don't think that starting Legacy of Bhaal with level 8 characters would be cheesy.

  • GhamarroGhamarro Member Posts: 44
    edited April 10
    Concerning how I define cheese, I personally don't regard having to kite enemies or having meta-knowledge of the game as cheese. I kind of assumed that to even be able to beat this game on LOB, you'd pretty much have to have a really well min-maxed player character and literally know the location of every single item and npc (friend and foe alike) in the game. As long as I'm not exploiting bugs or unintended non-features like nuking non-triggered, out-of-sight enemies with aoe spells while they just stand there doing nothing etc, I'm pretty comfortable. I'm not against starting the fight yourself with an out-of-sight fireball, though, as long as that actually aggroes the enemies and makes them put up a fight. There are two main things that I really want to do with this game and they are 1) complete the game legit (i.e. smallest possible amount of cheese) on LOB difficulty, and 2) to experience the EE's new companions (recruiting them, helping them out with their own quests, and then just playing through the game with them), but since I'm a little short on time and energy, I thought I'd try to hit both ducks with one stone and both play on LOB difficulty AND play with the new companions on the same playthrough. I know that the game can be beaten solo on LOB (with mandatory cheese, though), so I assume playing with the new npcs isn't going to be a problem? Or are some of them so bad that they are actually a liability and thus make the game even harder, or impossible even?

    BelgarathMTH
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,095
    @Ghamarro , I don't know about "impossible" but Neera and Rasaad certainly won't make it any easier. Last Sunday, I was playing early BG1 with Neera in my party, and we were attacking the gnoll stronghold to rescue Dynaheir for Minsc. Things were getting dicey in the front with me as a cleric-fighter and Jaheira in the front line, against the gnoll chieftain and his chronies. I made the mistake of having Neera cast Sleep. It wild surged, "AOE effect", and put Minsc to sleep. Jaheira and I both had to make saving throws, and got lucky. If I had failed my save, with the gnoll chieftain whaling on me, it would have been game over. I have never been so glad in my life to boot a mage out of my party and replace her with Dynaheir!

    As for Rasaad, I wouldn't call him a liability like Neera, but I would call him next to useless. His lousy AC and inability to wear a helmet mean he is going to get hit constantly. The only way to get *some* use out of a low-level monk that I know, is to use his movement speed to have him rush in for one hit, then run back out again before he gets clobbered in the head. If enemy archers target him, then, goodbye Rasaad, we hardly knew ye.

    I've always thought Beamdog made a terrible decision with Neera's and Rasaad's classes, and I almost never use them.

    sarevok57
  • InKalInKal Member Posts: 141
    Unmodded BG:EE probably yes. With SCS installed on hardcore/insane (enemy mages prebuffing and stuff) definitely NO. There is a video on youtube, some guy cheated himself Amulet of magic missiles with 250 charges, exploited enemy AI in Daeveron fight by making guards block Daeveron in the corner and then proceed to blast them with magic missiles for like 1,5 hours. I am not judging or anything I'm just saying that I prefer to go outside and breathe some fresh air than play like this.

    For Neera I would recommend BG Enhanced NPC mod "change Neera to sorcerer" component. For me it solved ALL problems with her.

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