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Wellyn's ghost and a paladin

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Comments

  • Mantis37Mantis37 Member Posts: 895
    Alternatively read some of the sources for our beliefs about paladins and choose one of the characters from those tales to model your character on e.g. Malory's The Death of Arthur. Sir Lancelot may behave rather differently to Sir Gareth for example, or to the heroes of Ariosto's Orlando Furioso.

  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,362
    IIRC when you talk to the murderer dwarf about the ghost, he attacks you himself, making killing him a self-defense act.

    tbone1
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,410
    you have the chance to handle the ting pacifically and let him go or to provoke him and have him attack you, in the latter case can be self defense, even if in a somehow stretched way.
    in the other cases @Humanoid_Taifun named before you have no way to avoid the battle and still do the quest, the tanner and neb attack you and you don't have any other way to save viconia without the fanatics attacking you.

  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 959
    @gorgonzola From what I can tell, Imoen is not taken by the cowled wizards because she broke the law, but because Irenicus makes it a condition to his surrender. There is no reason for your paladin to support such a shady deal.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,410
    edited April 4
    @Humanoid_Taifun i have not a save game to test it and i don't remember the dialogue by hearth, but i am pretty sure that the cw spawn as soon as imoen attacks irenicus with a spell, she is the first to violate the law, in the same way they do also after if you don't pay the licence. the difference is that they don't give a first time warning. also when they spawn, if i remember correctly, irenicus has not still cast a single spell, so there is no reason why they should try to arrest or attack him instead of imoen. also the cw are still convinced that they can prevail over irenicus (poor guys, they don't know with who they are dealing...), is true that irenicus ask for that condition to his surrender, but it is like to tell that a thief agrees to be arrested without resisting but asks to the police to arrest also the other thief that was stealing with him. it is not a shady deal, is only justice being equal for everyone, or at least for everyone but the rich that can pay for the licence or the really powerful that is stronger then the justice enforcers, like sadly happens also in our real world.

    EDIT: i checked a you tube walktrough and indeed irenicus is the first to cast, against some shadow thieves, then imoen cast a magic missile at him and he launch at her a mmm, only at that point the cw spawn.
    but they are clear about what they are going to do "this is an unsanctioned use of magical energy" and "all involved will be held ". then she cast a second mm at irenicus.
    is true that he tells them "you may take me but you will take the girl as well", but when she answer "i have done nothing wrong" the cw tells "you have been involved in illegal use of magic, you will come with us".

    imoen is taken cause she broke the law, the first time being not aware of it, the second time right after a cw has clearly stated that there an illegal magic activity is not allowed. our pally can not ignore it.

    Post edited by gorgonzola on
  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 959
    edited April 4
    Irenicus blasted the Shadowthieves to bits long before Imoen cast her first spell. Not just that, but do note the state of the ground that he is standing on. That was Irenicus. His magics laid waste to a large chunk of Waukeen's Promenade.
    And the Cowled Wizards are not very confident.
    "Why was this man not gagged? Did he not slay four of you?"
    - "We dared not approach."
    Denying Imoen the right to self defense (even though everybody else gets a second chance) is not justice being equal for everyone, in my opinion. It is them taking Irenicus up on his offer.

    But it is certainly up to interpretation.

    BelgarathMTH
  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 305
    edited April 4
    @gorgonzola but if you do quests and gather information at some point you have the dream where
    Irenicus takes over Spellhold
    which gives you a perfectly justified reason to go there, or did that dream trigger after accepting the deal for the Thieves?

  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 959
    I do not think that the cutscenes can be interpreted as character knowledge, what with you having no dialogue options that even imply your character's awareness of them.

  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 305
    Okay let's play lawful stupid, all hail to the Cowled Wizards, Imoen must be killed! 😉

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,410
    @Arvia
    the dream happens only after you progress in your collaboration with the shadow thieves. i never sided with the vampire so i can not tell what happens in that case. also i, like you, seem to be only able to rp a good charname or eventually a good oriented neutral one.

    but i think that @Raduziel gave the right attitude to rp a paladin, that is far from lawful stupid, pick your deity and let what is sacred for your deity to be a guidance to your actions. and, i would add, make the best possible choices according to the limitations of the game, in a pnp maybe you can find other options that make possible to progress being faithful to your alignment, in the computer game only few choices are given and we must live with them.

    ArviaThacoBell
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,264
    People should listen to me more often, you know. I'm like a sage.

    gorgonzolaArviaThacoBell
  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 305
    edited April 4
    @gorgonzola
    I tried evil once, just to use different NPCs, but I didn't make it to chapter 3, hated it. I felt embarrassed even chosing dialogue options like "and what will be my reward???"
    @Raduziel
    Of course your advice is a good one, to play according to the deity. I will have to read more to know which one I pick.
    And I didn't want to imply that your advice was stupid, I just thought that the discussion became exaggerated once we started to question even our right to rescue Imoen. In my opinion even Lawful Good doesn't mean you have to obey every authority you happen to come across without even trying to discuss the problem. And in the beginning you do try to talk to them and not just plan to break her out.

    BelgarathMTH
  • Gatekeep3rGatekeep3r Member Posts: 84
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    wait a moment...
    if a pally has to respect and enforce law, so can not side with thieves or maybe kill an assassin of a child, why should he try to reach the cw prison and free a criminal? cause imoen is a criminal, she is in jail cause she violated the law casting a spell without having the licence to do it.
    the right way for a pally is to try to help imoen in a legal way, contacting the spokesperson of the cw, capturing a criminal ranger for the cw, bringing his body to tolgerias and never getting into the planar sphere, and slamming against a rubber wall, frustrating as it can be...
    never getting beyond chap 2.

    The Cowled Wizards are actually lawful evil. They arrest people they deem 'deviants'. Imoen casted magic missile on a man who tortured her and the Wizards locked her up in a prison where they experiment on people. No paladin in the realms would support that organization.

    ArviaThacoBellgorgonzolaBelgarathMTH
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,264
    @Arvia No offense taken :)

    I knew your "lawful stupid" comment wasn't about me.

    Carry on and let me know if you need anything.

    Arviagorgonzola
  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 795
    Gatekeep3r wrote: »
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    wait a moment...
    if a pally has to respect and enforce law, so can not side with thieves or maybe kill an assassin of a child, why should he try to reach the cw prison and free a criminal? cause imoen is a criminal, she is in jail cause she violated the law casting a spell without having the licence to do it.
    the right way for a pally is to try to help imoen in a legal way, contacting the spokesperson of the cw, capturing a criminal ranger for the cw, bringing his body to tolgerias and never getting into the planar sphere, and slamming against a rubber wall, frustrating as it can be...
    never getting beyond chap 2.

    The Cowled Wizards are actually lawful evil. They arrest people they deem 'deviants'. Imoen casted magic missile on a man who tortured her and the Wizards locked her up in a prison where they experiment on people. No paladin in the realms would support that organization.

    Though taking Imoen seemed a bit harshr, without any previously warnings, it could still make sense from the perspective of the Cowled Wizards. For them it looks Imoen and Irenicus a magical duel, which wracked a significant portion of the Promenade - and I wouldn't be surprised if there are some bodies beneath the rubble.

    The other people in Spellhold seemed like they were dangerously insane. I mean, can you really blame the Cowled Wizards for locking up Tiax?

    So, individual corrupt individuals aside, I do not think a Paladin would necessarily have a problem with the "spellcasting without license ->" jail policy.

    ThacoBellgorgonzolaBelgarathMTH
  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 959
    The game is not to blame for this, but using the SCS option of having the cowled wizards detect spellcasting in most indoor areas, it does bother me that they keep coming to Kangaxx' aid when I fight him.

    gorgonzola
  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 305
    @Humanoid_Taifun by the time you are ready to tackle Kangaxx you still don't want to spare the 5000gp to keep the CW out of your hair?

    I'm wondering if I should do Kangaxx or not. As an Undead Hunter I should probably wipe him off the face of Faerun, and the two liches you have to fight to get his body parts, but without meta knowledge, how would it ever occur to a paladin to break into an unmarked trapped house without reason? Or open the sarcophagus in the Unseeing Eye dungeon, where they clearly ask you not to release the great evil within? And for the other part it also was behind a secret locked door in an inn, same as the room where you get the Daystar.

    I hate the thought but I don't think I should do it.

    gorgonzolaZaghoul
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 8,555
    I never pay the license. I just have Jaheira throw bees at the cowled wizards whenever they show up.

    gorgonzolaStummvonBordwehr
  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 959
    @Arvia My good aligned characters do not feel like bribing public officials. They generally decide not to cast magic where the Cowled Wizards do not want them to do it. Some of them just do not expect that area to extend to ancient crypts housing forgotten demi liches.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,410
    @ThacoBell this is the attitude i like! i find that if you intentionally cast a spell in the street when you find one of those vampires it is even more fun as at that point you have little equipment and to fight 1 or 2 undeads and 4 cw at the same time and at a low level is really fun, the situation can easily go out of your control very fast and become quite chaotic and interesting.

    @Arvia your dedication to the rp aspect of the game is wonderful, my approach is more a mix of roleplaying and powergaming and i probably would not resist to the temptation of fighting some good battles and getting the ring. even if in my rp way i don't have any problem about using evil items with a good party. for me an item is only a tool, the way i use it or in general the way i act is evil or good.
    but as you rp an undead hunter you can rp that you are aware that some form of evil is hidden in the town, you can start to open the sarcophagus cause what else then an evil undead can be inside? and destroying undeads is your job, your mission. then you find the golden parts of something and you start your investigation, checking if there is more, and trapped doors are very suspicious, are a good place to look at.
    you are not breaking trough doors to steal, you had some clues and you have to investigate as undead hunter.
    if doing your investigation you have, pure coincidence, a rogue stone with yourself even better, 2 more undeads and other bad guys to erase :)
    i don't know if for you this is to stretch too much your rp, but possibly is a good way to don't loose that quest(s) while rp a pally.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,410
    The game is not to blame for this, but using the SCS option of having the cowled wizards detect spellcasting in most indoor areas, it does bother me that they keep coming to Kangaxx' aid when I fight him.
    i don't play scs but maybe also there if you trigger a spawn of cw you have a certain time of cool down in the same area, so new groups of cw don't spawn as you react to the first one.
    is possible that triggering intentionally a spawn of cw in the room before the kangaxx one and right after you have killed them to go to fight him you are protected against a further spawn. surely it allows you at least to put on some protective spells and then enter kangaxx room.

    is only an hypothesis as i don't play scs so don't know how it affects the cw spawning.

  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 305
    @gorgonzola I have done powergaming. Doesn't interest me any more. Really rping is a nice challenge too.
    Sounds okay what you say, I will consider it . But my undead hunter wouldn't use the ring as it clearly states that it radiates evil. To destroy the liches is another matter of course. And you are right, I'm investigating, not trying to steal. Hmmm... must think about it. As a cavalier it would be a different matter, but for an undead hunter to ignore Kangaxx AND the Twisted Rune would be a pity...
    I could always give the evil items to the Order or a temple for safeguarding...

    Will think about it.

    ThacoBellgorgonzolaBelgarathMTH
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,264
    @Arvia The sarcophagus situation, again, depends on your deity.

    A Paladin of Torm would definitely open it to vanquish whatever evil is inside. A Paladin of Helm would let it be sealed. And etc...

    ZaghoulgorgonzolaThacoBell
  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 305
    @Raduziel I'm NEVER going to follow Helm! Torm, in RP, most likely.

    I was more concerned about justifying to get to Kangaxx since I have no reason to break down that particular door.
    Or could the ability to Detect Evil be used as an explanation? That if anyone feels the evil next to the Sarcophagus, maybe an Undead Hunter could feel it from farther away and go check the building? Does this make sense?

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,410
    it depends on you and your way to rp.
    probably i would justify the thing more like as i know that there some evil and i have found a part of it in the 1rst sarcophagus i go look if i can find the other parts of it, starting from suspicious trapped doors that seem to don't have other reason to be trapped. i mean, are doors on the public road, usually people lock them, don't put traps, is the trap that make them suspect. but if you prefer to rp that the pally can sense the evil, if it has more sense for you, go that way and be happy.

  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,264
    Detect Evil can be used. Or some headcanon event like your paladin hearing a voice calling her whenever she gets close to that building.

    My excuse in RP to get in there is to check if that residence is part of Mae'Var's complex. I mean, I just whipped a thief guild from literally the building next door, a trapped door raises suspicions.

    gorgonzolaZaghoul
  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 305
    @Humanoid_Taifun I completely forgot that it's actually a bribe and not an official permission. I paid after getting attacked by that mad cleric, receiving the warning and then having angry Cowled Wizards turning up in the middle of the last Harper fight.

  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 305
    Btw doors could be trapped for various good reasons. If I had to live in the Docks District I would most certainly invest in door traps!

  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,264
    Arvia wrote: »
    Btw doors could be trapped for various good reasons. If I had to live in the Docks District I would most certainly invest in door traps!

    That's true but:

    1) No other door in the entire district is trapped - not even the Harper's complex or the house with the pair of necromancers that the Harper's ask you to get rid off or the house of the guy who is a scaping fugitive from the CW or the HQ of the local militia or the house of a CW who is being hunted by the Shadow Thieves etc...

    2) As I said, it is right besides a building that had a guild of thieves.

    So it does gets suspicious.

    gorgonzolaArvia
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