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Why no general alarm when I kill a neutral?

GoidaGoida Member Posts: 118
I remember well, and it was a very nice thing, that when I attacked a blue-circled NPC in the original BG, all the others around would turn red on me. It was the same way with Torment. You had to goad people you wanted to kill or they needed to attack you first. Now, however, in the Enhanced Edition of BG people have gotten callous and indifferent. Maybe 20 years of terrorism on TV have jaded them, but the only reaction to a random murder in a bar on a street is an abstract drop in Reputation. Why does this happen and how can I change it back?

Comments

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,243
    i want to say it has to do with the script of the NPC you are killing

    perhaps in the vanilla versions, every NPC had the script of "turn area hostile if upon death" or some such

    perhaps that has been taken out, just in case so players dont accidentally kill innocents from AI sets

  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 1,840
    edited April 2
    The basic script ("SHOUT".bcs) was altered:
    "Innocent" creatures will now flee instead of turning hostile.
    "Good" and "Neutral" creatures will turn hostile if the attacked creature was not evil.
    "Evil" creatures will turn hostile if the attacked creature was not good.
    Other creatures will turn hostile if the attacked target shared their "SPECIFICS" value.

    Creature's that are killed in one-hit with petrification or frozen no longer "shout" that they were attacked.
    edit - though attacking and shattering the statue will then allow them to "shout" that they were attacked.

    sarevok57RaduzielJuliusBorisovsemiticgod
  • GoidaGoida Member Posts: 118
    Thank you for the explanation, kjeron. And what exactly is the value of this alteration? I think this is something begging to be reverted. Also, do you know if Sword Coast Stratagems, as the most popular script-changing mod, has done something to SHOUT? If it has, I might still be able to target those reaction lines with Weidu and fix them.

    If Beamdog wanted to make innocents react in some way without forcing an area-wide fight, then maybe a better idea would be to make them EscapeArea(). This way a killing will make the nearby space empty, depopulated. Shout() has a range of 40, I think. A murder will still penalize the player but without having to go on and slaughter everybody (it happened sometimes with AI on).

  • SkitiaSkitia Member Posts: 110
    EscapeArea would be bad, it could make you lose quest NPCs. In the case of a misclick or AoE spell hitting someone, that'd be inconvenient.

    Personally, I actually like the alteration, but it wouldn't be too hard to change the script if you wanted to either.

  • GoidaGoida Member Posts: 118
    Quest NPC are never INNOCENT. Not in any case that I know. And if any are, they don't have SHOUT in the override slot.

  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 1,012
    Goida wrote: »
    Quest NPC are never INNOCENT. Not in any case that I know. And if any are, they don't have SHOUT in the override slot.
    Both not true if you include mods.

    Raduziel
  • GoidaGoida Member Posts: 118
    If you mean stupid decisions by modders to make significant NPC the class created for bystanders and assign them the script for crowd signalling and running away (because combat shouting has other, more sophisticated scripts), then yes, I can't foresee every such double whammy.

  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 1,012
    edited April 9
    My bgqe quest givers are mostly tagged as INNOCENT, yes. They are defensless bystanders who happen to have a problem the PC can help them with. If the player decides to hit the town around them with murder and terror, there is no reason they would just remain standing, handing out quest info. If the player decides to attack them, there is no reason the town shouldn't turn hostile like for any other town inhabitant.
    It gets rediculous like in original BG1, though, where it could be that INNOCENTs and bandits used the same SHOUT script...

    subtledoctor
  • GoidaGoida Member Posts: 118
    edited April 10
    So what is your objection to EscapeArea()? That will represent a reaction to murder and terror alright. If the player goes that way, he'll lose the quests. Sounds fair to me. The red alert reaction is valid, too, but it's just inconvenient. Prevents practically any killing of innocents - you have to reload. And would ass-scratching bystanders (they do scratch it!) really all turn on a squad of armed thugs if they saw them kill someone? More likely, the ones to witness it would run away.

  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 1,012
    edited April 10
    Isn't SHOUT scripted that way? If it's an innocent, run away. If not, attack. (EDIT: wasn't that the actual reason oft your thread? I am confused as to what you actually want.)
    I think the one-way "game characters turn hostile and stay that way" oft the game(s) is a very restricted way oft dealing with this. I enjoyed games where monsters / people would eventually forget they were chasing you.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 10,689
    jastey wrote: »
    Isn't SHOUT scripted that way? If it's an innocent, run away.

    Yup. Already posted above:

    "The basic script ("SHOUT".bcs) was altered:
    "Innocent" creatures will now flee instead of turning hostile."

  • GoidaGoida Member Posts: 118
    *sigh* Guys, have you actually played the game? I have to ask. The SHOUT script makes the innocents run away for a time, yes, but with the RunAwayFromNoLeaveArea(LastHeardBy(Myself),180) action. Usually there isn't even enough space to run about for three minutes. They move off a little distance on their short legs, and that's all. It's an interruptible version of the action, too. You can talk to them right away without even waiting. EscapeArea() is something else... obviously? I agree that it would be nice to have some more complicated behavior for innocents, reacting at first somehow, then possibly forgetting, but that would require serious scripting work. Out of the three simple options we have on the table - area-wide red alert, Beamdog's mild fright and nearby innocents running off for good - the last one seems to me both the best-balanced and the most realistic.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 10,689
    If that's your opinion then... change the script in your game? Make a mod? Post a feature request on Redmine? (It's a good time for that last one, as I hear they are semi-actively working on a patch right now.)

  • GoidaGoida Member Posts: 118
    Yes, I'll make a mod. I was checking out the scene here.

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