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Xzar's and Montaron's Parting Threats

BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,088
Heya, I decided to start a run of original GoG unmodded Baldur's Gate today, on a nostalgic impulse. I just played to Nashkel with the "canon" starting party of Jaheira, Khalid, Montaron, Xzar, and Imoen. I'm playing a half elf fighter-cleric. There's a lot I really like about the original game over the EE's, (Jaheira's Entangle spell is party friendly!) but that's another topic, maybe.

I had kept the evil duo with me much longer than I usually would, roleplaying that my wise lawful good paladinesque fighter-cleric would think that they were needed. Xzar's Larloch's Minor Drains had helped us on several occasions against very dangerous enemies, as had Monty's crossbow. ("Missile Weapons" proficiency gives flexibility for crossbows and darts, not just slings, yay BG1 weapon proficiencies!)

Because of several completed quests, our reputation was pretty high. I noticed that the character dialogues seem to trigger much more often in original BG1. I had already gotten Khalid's (paraphrasing) "I don't mean to be a bother, but... umm...could you be less... I don't know... um.... evil" three times. Once was to Xzar, where he got "Will you continue to bother me, or shall I indulge my sweet tooth?", and twice to Montaron, getting "Will ye shut up, or must we come to jabs?" I had also twice gotten Jaheira saying to Xzar "You're very amusing, in a 'What the hell is wrong with you?' sort of way," with Xzar once responding "Be quiet, ye annoying harlot."

Then, when I went up to Minsc, and booted Xzar and Montaron at the same time, I got these parting threats instead of the dialogues I had always seen before, and I assume these dialogues mean they are now gone forever from this run:
07dehtzn4m12.jpg

I don't know if it's visible in the screen shot, but I had roleplayed that Xzar had a fascinated attraction to the ogre's shiny, gold-plated belt, and had insisted on taking it for his and putting it on, becoming, Xzarina. And he was fine with that. ;)

ZaghoulJuliusBorisovOrlonKronsteenQuartzkansasbarbarian

Comments

  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,088
    edited April 13
    More interesting differences. Here are Minsc's original proficiencies, before BG2 added dual-wielding garbage to rangers:
    r6g2qzftwtbv.jpg

    And, he originally came at level two, which helps compensate for the lack of bow proficiency:
    7s05kq3iv8l1.jpg

    I decided to test BG2 with Tweaks "BG1 weapon proficiencies without weapon styles." And Minsc had this:
    f6491nplaac1.jpg

    So apparently when Tweaks was written, it was decided to drop Minsc's axe proficiency for this option in favor of bows and blunt weapons. That's interesting, because it gives the player the option to have Minsc use mace and shield, sword and shield, or bow and quarterstaff, or bow and sword. (Original BG did not allow carrying a shield together with a bow or two-handed weapon, and the game could not be paused in combat to switch items in inventory. BG2 changed to allow pausing on inventory screen, but I prefer the BG realism of not being able to do that. )

    Post edited by BelgarathMTH on
    butteredsoulQuartz
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,088
    edited April 13
    I just noticed that mirrored sprites weren't a thing in original BG1. Notice in this screen shot, our shields remain on our left arms, and our weapons in our right hands, while facing to the right. This little trip down nostalgia lane is reminding me in a lot of little ways, how when developers try to make things better, they wind up making them worse. "The more complicated the pipes, the easier it is to stop up the plumbing. ~Scotty, Star Trek III"
    f8r0qjwgndky.jpg

    Also, I've noticed that world map travel times are completely different than in the EE's, and frankly, much more logical. And, there's no overlapping of scaled world map labels where you can't see them. In the original game, you hover your mouse pointer over the map module you're considering traveling to, and after a couple of seconds, then it shows you on a tool tip what will be the travel time.
    msna9vxrxnav.jpgh07aa2kwu148.jpg1joov6m1y11v.jpgja3j4nyb2vdz.jpg



    OrlonKronsteenQuartz
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,088
    Wow, the awesome "enhancements" from the original game keep coming. In original BG, Protection from Petrification was a second level spell. So, no more cheesy going straight to the basilisks for a few cheesy levels with your first level solo FMT, if the spell was your way to do that.

    I wonder if the no-reloaders would be able to no-reload the original game without the ability to pause on their inventory screens? Has it ever been done?

    2lnkz7nipkdl.jpg

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 8,556
    Most of these changes were due to upgrading the engine to BG2's. I'd argue that most of these "enhancements" you complain about do actually improve the game. About the only thing I agree with you on is the old proficiencies. Having weapon groups increases build flexibility.

    dunbarStummvonBordwehrOrlonKronsteen
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,088
    edited April 14
    @ThacoBell , I think your point is valid, except with regards to the world map. I started a new EE game on the latest patch a week ago, and the world map has been royally screwed. (Travel time displays overlap each other, making it impossible to see the travel time to wherever you want to go. Also, most often you can't see a travel time at all unless you go there first. I *hate* what BD has done to the world map as of the current version of the game.)

    Also, what the heck were they thinking removing the southern woods of Beregost away from the town to a four hour hike, when it's supposed to be zero hours distance, like the temple map? The child on the southern woods map tells you the town is right there, the gnome in the inn implies his boots are right there, and the letter to Miriam implies the town is right there.

    kansasbarbarian
  • Mantis37Mantis37 Member Posts: 896
    I wouldn't mind if a tweaks mod included unpausing when in inventory screen actually. Though GrondO has completed BG without ever pausing the game in combat anyway!

    BelgarathMTH
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 6,506
    IIRC, one of the reasons why the travel times were changed was due to the fact that travel times to and from different maps were not consistent. It’d take 8 hrs to travel to a map, but 12 hours to travel back.

    BelgarathMTHThacoBell
  • ilduderinoilduderino Member Posts: 128
    deltago wrote: »
    IIRC, one of the reasons why the travel times were changed was due to the fact that travel times to and from different maps were not consistent. It’d take 8 hrs to travel to a map, but 12 hours to travel back.

    It was a very steep climb back?

    BelgarathMTHBalrog99Mantis37
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 10,689
    Allowing the game to stay paused while you access the inventory screen is BG2's greatest sin.

    dunbarBelgarathMTHHaHaCharadeMantis37
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 4,141
    Allowing the game to stay paused while you access the inventory screen is BG2's greatest sin.

    Well you could rp that Charname and all of his/her allies are severely OCD and thus know exactly to the nearest millimeter where every item is stored in their pockets, in their bags of holding and in their knapsack/fanny packs. Sounds believable to me...

  • HaHaCharadeHaHaCharade Member Posts: 1,524
    Allowing the game to stay paused while you access the inventory screen is BG2's greatest sin.

    Ah yes... (Singing like Archie and Edith)... "Those were the daaaaays."

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 8,556
    For me, the only real thing BG1 has over the EE is the original item sprites. While the horned helmets etc. look a little goofy to me, it was so very nice that the Sword Coast and Amn had distinct styles with their weapons and armor.

    ilduderinoBelgarathMTH
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,812
    Always love me the rare love-for-vanilla thread!

    Overall, the EEs are way more stable and a big improvement. But there are some issues because...
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    Most of these changes were due to upgrading the engine to BG2's.
    Yup.
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    I'd argue that most of these "enhancements" you complain about do actually improve the game.
    Nah.

    The sprites are pretty unforgivable, as is the mish-mash of art styles. BG1 is a low-level adventure with a lot of exploring wilderness and dungeons, so the sprites looked crisp and the style is somewhat plain. BGII is a high-level adventure with a whole lot of magic and mystery, so the sprites look smooth and the style is more alien. I always enjoyed the distinction between the two. I would gladly throw out dual-wielding in BG:EE to get the non-mirrored character sprites back.

    Obviously, different players have different priorities. So I'm not suggesting my opinion is the only valid one. But, definitely some things I miss about vanilla. Still, Beamdog was more careful at maintaining BG1's integrity than TuTu/Trilogy was, so good for them for trying.

    JuliusBorisovBelgarathMTH
  • butteredsoulbutteredsoul Member Posts: 131
    When did missile stacks get pushed past 20? That was a wonderful change too.

    Zaxares
  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 103
    Yeah, ammo stacks getting increased to 80 was another nice change too, although the inclusion of the Ammo Belt container sort of alleviates the issue of having a pack full of arrows as well.

  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,088
    When did missile stacks get pushed past 20? That was a wonderful change too.

    I believe Baldur's Gate 2 changed it to 40. EE increased it to 80.

    ThacoBellQuartz
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 4,141
    When did missile stacks get pushed past 20? That was a wonderful change too.

    It was wonderful from a convenience standpoint, but it often crosses my mind how absurd it is that my archer can carry over 1,000 arrows and they dont even weigh anything! I seriously have never seen any archer carry more than about 20-50 arrows at any one time in RL or even the movies.

    It doesn't bother me enough not to take advantage though! It's kinda the same guilty ping I feel when I read the Protection from Undead scroll before I take on Kangaxx. It's like a momentary flutter in my stomach that soon passes...

    BelgarathMTHQuartz
  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 960
    @Balrog99 I think mongols went to battle with hundreds of arrows, but their quivers were attached to horses, which made it much easier for the humans.
    But carrying an unrealistically large number of projectiles is I think a necessary side effect of the game mechanics.
    1) You cannot recover any used projectiles (or even the arrowheads for use on new shafts) - this is somewhat realistic.
    2) You face hundreds of enemies. (this is kind of maybe a little realistic, if you accept the plot and also a bunch of silly rules about how your enemies choose to fight you in small groups even as you slaughter your way through their homes)
    3) Enemies have many Hitpoints and arrows do very little damage. (this is not realistic, though BG1 is much better in this regard than BG2)
    Overall, Baldur's Gate is a game. You need no food or sleeping bag. Every piece of armor always fits everyone, regardless of their size. The game does not keep track of your dental hygiene. The elves in your party never comment that you should really take a bath even though you honestly should. Yes, this is an appeal to worse problems. My point is simply that since I am running on Suspension of Disbelief anyway, I do not really care about the numbers of arrows I carry any more than I care about Minsc's ability to carry six suits of plate armor in his backpack.

    ThacoBellQuartz
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,701
    edited April 22
    The cleanliness of Elves is legendary, even Winthrop knows about it!

    But seriously, I never intend to play vanilla again. Things like the summon limit aren't ideal, but killing Sarevok with a literal summoned army was lame. Also how I finally beat the damn game the first time. Vanilla Sarevok was tough, though I think the present setup is pretty challenging, unless you know the ways to disrupt things.

    Oh, and darts/slings/throwing daggers and axes are nearly unuseable in vanilla due to teeny stacks.

    Zaxareskansasbarbarian
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,812
    DreadKhan wrote: »
    Oh, and darts/slings/throwing daggers and axes are nearly unuseable in vanilla due to teeny stacks.
    To be fair, that can be modified pretty easily even in vanilla via NearInfinity. But yeah, the 10-stack limit of Darts, Throwing Daggers, and Throwing Axes was pretty ridiculous.

    DreadKhan
  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 103
    DreadKhan wrote: »
    But seriously, I never intend to play vanilla again. Things like the summon limit aren't ideal, but killing Sarevok with a literal summoned army was lame. Also how I finally beat the damn game the first time. Vanilla Sarevok was tough, though I think the present setup is pretty challenging, unless you know the ways to disrupt things.

    In fairness though, in the original game Sarevok had 100% Magic Resistance, which pretty much left my pure Mage with nothing to do but summon wave after wave of monsters to keep Sarevok occupied. I considered the tactic a fair trade off considering my character could otherwise do nothing else to him. :P So, SO many Hobgoblins ("SPARE NO ONE!") sacrificed themselves for my victory that day.

    ThacoBellDreadKhan
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,701
    Zaxares wrote: »
    DreadKhan wrote: »
    But seriously, I never intend to play vanilla again. Things like the summon limit aren't ideal, but killing Sarevok with a literal summoned army was lame. Also how I finally beat the damn game the first time. Vanilla Sarevok was tough, though I think the present setup is pretty challenging, unless you know the ways to disrupt things.

    In fairness though, in the original game Sarevok had 100% Magic Resistance, which pretty much left my pure Mage with nothing to do but summon wave after wave of monsters to keep Sarevok occupied. I considered the tactic a fair trade off considering my character could otherwise do nothing else to him. :P So, SO many Hobgoblins ("SPARE NO ONE!") sacrificed themselves for my victory that day.

    My first successful PC was a C/I, and I was more or less stuck forever until I just used up a Wand of Summoning and animated an army of the dead. I have no idea how I killed Aec even.

    Quartz
  • Gatekeep3rGatekeep3r Member Posts: 85
    DreadKhan wrote: »
    Vanilla Sarevok was tough, though I think the present setup is pretty challenging, unless you know the ways to disrupt things.

    Kite
    Thief
    Stealth
    Dagger of Venom backstab
    Drink potion of invisibility
    Run away
    Repeat

    Game over, Vanillavok.

  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,355
    Zaxares wrote: »
    in the original game Sarevok had 100% Magic Resistance,

    He has 90% MR in BGEE, just like he did in the original.

    Balrog99
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