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Wellyn's ghost and a paladin

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Comments

  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 320
    edited April 14
    We don't have any proof that Keldorn "abandoned" his family and "willfully ignored" his wedding oath. We have no idea how many times he saw them and how these meetings went.
    We have only the word of the woman who has been seeing another man in his absence (that it was not a physically intimate relationship doesn't matter here, in my opinion), so she is not loyal. We don't even know if she ever told him that she is not happy with the situation.
    I'm not blaming her either, but I suppose we all know enough broken relationships where we would have gotten the wrong idea if we had only heard one side of the story. We can't judge his character just by the testimony of his (unfaithful) wife.

    About the issues with Korgan I can't say anything. Never used Korgan.

    BelgarathMTH
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 801
    edited April 14
    @Arvia
    No, we have more than that. The housemaid tells you that it has been more than a month since she saw him while he is stationed in Athkatla. And then there is the dialogue with his daughters. Oh, I haven't seen my kid in a long time, let me ask her how her lessons go. He doesn't even know how to be a father at this point.

    Btw, just because you haven't used Korgan doesn't mean the dialogue isn't there. It just means you've missed seeing that particular side to Keldorn.

    gorgonzolaThacoBell
  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 320
    Another afterthought:
    What I have observed and find very strange is the fact that you have many evil characters in the game, and they are tough fighters or whatever, then they get a few cool lines or moments and people like them. (heck, you can romance DORN).
    On the other hand, there is an essentially good person, an example in many ways, who is also a strong fighter with great extra abilities, and if he is found less than perfect, human, people throw rocks at him. Why?

    gorgonzolaBelgarathMTH
  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 320
    edited April 14
    @chimaera which dialogue? I haven't talked to Korgan in the Copper Coronet. He didn't approach me on his own.

    I never said Keldorn was perfect. I wanted to beat him over the head after his comment in the Sahuagin city. But as I said before, why is everyone so keen on throwing rocks at him because he is less than perfect?

    Post edited by Arvia on
    BelgarathMTH
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 801
    Arvia wrote: »
    Another afterthought:
    What I have observed and find very strange is the fact that you have many evil characters in the game, and they are tough fighters or whatever, then they get a few cool lines or moments and people like them. (heck, you can romance DORN).
    On the other hand, there is an essentially good person, an example in many ways, who is also a strong fighter with great extra abilities, and if he is found less than perfect, human, people throw rocks at him. Why?

    I'm not sure why you've chosen to make assumptions about your fellow players, but I consider games to be fiction, and therefore I don't see anything wrong with liking either villains or heroes. I consider Keldorn to be a failure as a paladin and dislike him, just like I absolutely adore Mazzy.

  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 320
    edited April 14
    @chimaera of course it's fictional and you can like who you want, play how you want. I wasn't specifically addressing you.

    I'm not assuming, I'm merely observing. This is not the only thread where I have read those opinions. I really wonder why we people in general are so harsh in our judgement with people who are good, but not perfect, and so many people admire the bad guys, even if they are only fictional.
    I'm not saying people who play evil are attracted to evil in real life, but don't you think that how we play our games and what kind of movies we watch, with what kind of heroes we identify, has at least some influence on our view of the world?

    I don't know if it had been without any effect on my perception of good and evil, had I grown up watching, let's say, Game of Thrones, instead of Star Trek as a kid.

    By the way, Mazzy admires Keldorn.

    Post edited by Arvia on
    BelgarathMTH
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 801
    edited April 14
    @Arvia
    Well, you've described criticism of Keldorn as "throwing rocks at him". And I strongly disagree with that.

    As for liking/playing evil characters being indicative of the person, I don't identify at all with the characters I play. So if I were to follow that line of reasoning, I could say that the players who do identify with their characters have problems in distinguishing reality from fiction. Which I don't agree with either.

  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 963
    @Arvia The difference is, that we can all agree that Korgan is evil. There is no need for an argument; no one would defend him and claim that Korgan is just misunderstood.
    Keldorn on the other hand is a champion of justice. So it is actually an interesting topic to see where he fails in this role and what we would consider the right course of action. We do not throw rocks at him, as you say. But yes, we do scrutinize his actions, for the simple reason that there is something to scrutinize.

    @ThacoBell Torm is not the Christian God. His portfolio includes Duty, Loyalty and Obedience (also Paladins). But not Family or Love.
    You cannot just assume that an order dedicated a non-Christian God would be the same as a generic (and probably fictional) catholic church.
    I am not saying that it is normal for Paladins of Torm to abandon their families. Lately Keldorn only spends little time in my parties since when I trigger his quest I typically end up leaving him home with his family. He seems happy enough about it.

    gorgonzolaThacoBellArvia
  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 320
    I didn't say "indicative of a person". I just can't imagine it having absolutely no influence at all over the time. But I really don't want to quarrel with you, a game is a game. I don't play characters who go completely against my nature, because I can't. But I don't hit people with a sword in real life 😀
    And I like Keldorn.

    BelgarathMTH
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,421
    @Arvia yep, you use the scalpel, not the sword :D
    also i can not play in a way that goes against my nature and also i like keldorn, even if i am less paladin then you and i appreciate keldorn while i also see his defects, because one thing is to be clearly on one side in the fight between light and darkness, and to be perfect is a completely different thing.

    ArviaBelgarathMTH
  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 320
    @Humanoid_Taifun You are right. A paladin like Keldorn who claims the highest ideals must be judged harder than others.
    I agree with what you pointed out. I believe I said before in some post in this thread, Torm is not Christ.
    We judge his actions by our own values. We wouldn't leave our families because of our duties. But his god requires absolute dedication to duty and obedience, and I don't see where he is failing in that.
    We would consider him a racist, but in bis world, inherently bad people exist.

    I also must add that in the unmodded game I let him stay with his family. Except for my first EE run when I forgot his quest triggers in Government District and I had picked him up when my business there was over, so I never noticed. The last run I had Berelinde's Keldorn romance mod installed, which gives you a completely different story. You release him and he comes back after a few days, broken because his wife has kicked him out. The rest is many many serious talks.
    So, of course I side with him. But he was my favourite NPC before that.
    And I don't remember ever talking to Korgan.

  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 4,154
    Keldorn is one of my favorite NPC's in the whole series. I do think he takes a lot of flack, but no more so than any pastor, priest, or even politician that doesnt live up to people's expectations. For some reason folks like to believe that perfection is attainable even though in reality it clearly isn't.

    EnialusMeliamneBelgarathMTHThacoBellArvia
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 8,564
    @Arvia I actually really like Keldorn. But the thing is, he ISN'T the paladin ideal. He is a deconstruction of the ideal paladin. He upholds his paladin code and duty extremely well, but at the cost of his personal life and family. He isn't a bad person (quite the opposite), but there really is no excuse for what he has done to his family. Despite his reputation, he is a normal person with flaws, just like anyone else. Its why he is discussed so much. He is remarkably complex for the time he was written and its make people talk and form opinions.

    @Humanoid_Taifun Yes and no. Its not a 1-1 comparison. But paladins and their orders are pretty heavily based on the catholic church and the ideal of knights. There is a lot of overlap there, heck the one wedding we see resembles a Christian wedding more than anything else.

    " His portfolio includes Duty, Loyalty and Obedience (also Paladins). But not Family or Love."

    Duty and loyalty. Like to a family that you made vows to support and protect.

    gorgonzolaBelgarathMTHArvia
  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 320
    edited April 16
    @ThacoBell then we actually agree more than I thought (I'm quite good at misunderstanding things the first time, just in case you haven't noticed already 😉). He is not perfect and gets criticized a lot because of it, because we still expect the people we look up to to be perfect, and when we notice they are human too, we judge them more harshly. We want them to be what we think they should be and what we ourselves couldn't be.

    I still wonder how Torm would see this, though. If you see Keldorn's epilogue when you keep him (after his family reconciliation, of course), you wouldn't think he was judged badly because he went with you one last time before retiring.

    If you let him stay with his family (which I did, on various occasions) you don't know how his story ends.
    Imagine he's there with his family, all nice and safe and happy the way we imagine a perfect modern family, and then he hears what's going on in Saradush and beyond.
    Don't you think he'd also struggle with his conscience then, have the feeling that he neglected his duty? That he, as one of the most experienced members of the Radiant Heart, was sitting at home instead of helping to prevent the
    gathering of Bhaal's essence and the rising of a new Lord of Murder?

    BelgarathMTHThacoBell
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,421
    edited April 16
    @Arvia at the moment when he has to chose if to come with you for a last adventure or to retire he, and also charname, is absolutely not aware of what you are telling about in the spoiler.
    only after the end of soa it becomes apparent, and as you never return to amn after soa he has never the chance to choose if to help you in that noble task. so no conscience struggle, he happily retires and when the duty calls him probably end doing the same thing that he does if he helps you and continue with you trough tob.
    if there is an inconsistency it is if he stay with you, as after the soa ending he should have run to his family, in the beginning of tob is clearly told that charname remain in the elves city for some time, and he, having ended his duty with you has no reason to remain with you until you have to leave suldanessalar.

    ThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 8,564
    @Arvia Note that Keldorn is getting into his senior years. He has dedicated decades fo his life to the order. He is well past retirement age by the time you meet him. There should be no conflict of conscience or duty when/if he decides to stay with his family.

    ChroniclerArvia
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 735
    Torm has many servants I'm sure. Keldorn's not so special as to be irreplaceable. When/if he decides to retire Torm will simply assign some younger servant to whatever task Keldorn would've been doing.

    If anything it's egotistical to imagine your service is so special that you can't share your twilight years with your family.

    ThacoBellArvia
  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 963
    @Chronicler That is not how service to a God who makes loyalty and duty the most important qualities in his servants works.
    Whether Keldorn failed his family is one question. But whether he should consider his duty over because "Keldorn's not so special"? With that line of reasoning, anyone could get out of duty.
    Now it is possible that, as @ThacoBell suggests, the order has a retirement plan. Perhaps he already Keldorn got his notice that everybody is thankful for his service and that he should spend more time with his family. Perhaps he remains on duty because he personally cannot settle down into retirement. My grandfather is like that, refusing to stop working to the point that his children have to drag him away from the tasks that he is physically incapable of doing now.
    Or perhaps there is no such thing as retirement age for paladins working for Torm. They shall serve until they are no longer fit.

    What I think is happening is that he is under a misconception of what loyalty to his family actually entails. He is making sure that they are safe and well off. He provides for everything he can. He considers this to be the extent of his duty. It is only the family crisis which opens his eyes to the actual needs of his loved ones. It was not that he was too special for family life or that he refused them when he should have been there for them. He just went where he thought he was needed most.

    @ThacoBell But what is that ideal of knights? I suspect that what you are thinking of is a post-medieval idealization of knights, not an actual knightly code of conduct (of which there existed a wide variety).
    You bring up a Christian-like wedding as an argument, which was added by a different crew than the one who wrote Keldorn.
    Here is a major problem with comparing an order of Torm with a Christian community though. Torm is part of a polytheistic culture. People specifically choose Torm for his qualities. Torm and his clergy do not reject Sune or Yondalla. But if you are going to devote yourself to Torm, then that has certain implications. Further, as I have just pointed out, I do think that Keldorn is of the opinion that he is being loyal to his family. He definitely supports them and they are definitely protected.

    I keep talking about an order dedicated to Torm, but that is factually incorrect. It is just an order of paladins and knights. Anomen follows Helm. <CHARNAME>'s deity is up to the player.
    What does that mean in regards to the group's customs and rules? I have no idea. I wish we had more background information.

    @gorgonzola I had always interpreted "some time" to mean "a few days, enough time to rest up from the exertions and digest the victory feast".

    BelgarathMTHArvia
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 735
    edited April 17
    @Chronicler That is not how service to a God who makes loyalty and duty the most important qualities in his servants works.
    Whether Keldorn failed his family is one question. But whether he should consider his duty over because "Keldorn's not so special"? With that line of reasoning, anyone could get out of duty.

    Literally my point was that he was only serving out of duty. He served for decades, fulfilled his obligation to his god, but he doesn't have to worry about the cause suffering in his absence or anything.

    If "Anyone" wants to get out of duty after serving well into their old age, they're entitled to do so. At no point is it presented that his god actually wants him fight for his god until the day he dies. His god doesn't seem to be a "The only good death is honorable death in combat" kind of god. He's just overzealous.

    Edit:
    "Arvia wrote: »
    If you let him stay with his family (which I did, on various occasions) you don't know how his story ends.
    Imagine he's there with his family, all nice and safe and happy the way we imagine a perfect modern family, and then he hears what's going on in Saradush and beyond.
    Don't you think he'd also struggle with his conscience then, have the feeling that he neglected his duty? That he, as one of the most experienced members of the Radiant Heart, was sitting at home instead of helping to prevent the
    gathering of Bhaal's essence and the rising of a new Lord of Murder?

    Specifically it was in response to this. One of The Radiant Heart's senior most officers retiring isn't a crisis of conscience, it's the natural order. The old get replaced by the new. Before Keldorn was the most experienced it was some other guy, and before him someone else.

    Not like it's unheard of for the gods in The Forgotten Realms to decide a particular servant is too valuable and must serve them forever, but Keldorn has never been a servant of that magnitude. He's just some workaholic shmuck who neglects his family.

    Post edited by Chronicler on
    ThacoBell
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,421
    edited April 17
    @Humanoid_Taifun between the end of soa and the beginning of tob a lot of things happen, the cutshene at the beginning of tob is very clear. the 5 build armies and start what is clearly told is a wave of massive destruction, panic spreads trough the sword coast and even in suldanessalar your position became to be uneasy, so ellesime suggest you...
    as in the whole soa we have not any notice of that, and massive destruction and panic are not something that can be ignored or regarded as a local problem, it happens in all the sword coast, we must assume that all this becomes evident after the end of soa, even if the activity of the 5 can have begun before it. considering that news there spread much slower then in the modern word, as bards and travellers are the ones that spread them, not the modern mass media, i assume that at least some month has passed. more then enough for keldorn to recover and go meet his long neglected family.

    about the duty of a paladin of torm we perfectly know by the game lore that keldorn has not any problem to retire, or anyway pass much more time with his family then he used, related to the nature of his duty and his god. it is actually what he does if one of the possible choices of his quest is taken. if he can do it after he could have done it before.

  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 963
    @gorgonzola I do not find the cut scene clear in that regard at all. I also find it weird that all the violence would begin as soon as you put down Irenicus. The way I interpret it, it started before, but you did not pay much attention to the rumors of small incidents; news of the large armies and the destruction they bring about in a far away country only reach you once you have enough time to settle down and listen to the bards.
    My view is certainly not canon. There is nothing to support it. But I do not think there is much to disprove it either.
    @Chronicler I think we can leave it at that.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,421
    edited April 17
    @Humanoid_Taifun surely the fact the violence begins right at the right moment is weird, like a lot of things are weird, ie that keldorn, a paladin near the age of retirement, has so little xp when you find him, about the same as aerie, that has lived all her adult life in a cage and then in a circus, but they both become super strong and experienced in few months or even less if you rush trough the game.
    the only sense of so many things is to make the game possible.
    but even if charname did not care much of rumors about small incidents, and as are incidents regarding bhaal spawns it has not really a sense, the change of attitude of ellesime from soa ending to tob begin make me think that the bhaal spawn crisis has an escalation in the time charname spend in the elves city, rumors of small incidents become massive destruction and panic (i am quoting the cut scene ), in a world where the news are slow to spread. so i still think that months, not days, pass between soa and tob.
    maybe that keldorn needs to recover a little more then for an usual bettle, he has just been dead and resurrected, but he recovers from a dragon battle in 8 hours, and has to go to the family and relax, not to some other war or risky task. there is really no rp reason to have him with you at the beginning of tob, if the soa ending would have to be his last task before retiring. and again this is like so to make the game possible, to have him also in tob, where his personal quest vanish into nothing.

  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 963
    @gorgonzola That is why once played the game by first making a list of what I thought would be sensible starting XP for everybody; and second how much XP they would sensibly accumulate over the course of the story.
    For example Jaheira started with 1.5 million XP in Baldur's Gate 1, and she never got HLAs.

    It was fun, but it was also awkward. So I have not used this houserule in several years.

  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 735
    You know. Keldorn is conflicted with himself constantly, and ultimately decides he can't abide by a few evil or even neutral characters.

    Mazzy is not conflicted. She seems generally willing to abide by unsavory company for the purpose of a higher goal, though the vampire's still a no go. She has no Detect Evil skill though so that could maybe explain a bit of that.

    We don't often consider Ajantis, who's perhaps on the other end of the spectrum. He also seems to have no real conflict with himself, though he's not a terribly fleshed out character. He will attempt to kill any evil companion, no matter how benign. If I recall he worships Helm, and I guess Helm must be cool with that.

    That being said, he doesn't seem to rely on his Detect Evil skill to do so. Perhaps because he's so low level, and has so few uses per day. When you meet him he asks you point blank if you're good or evil, and then he just takes your word on that. Presumably he must be a pretty good judge of these things though because over time any evil companion will reveal their true nature to him, with no false alarms.

    Yet despite this he still gets taken in by Firkraag's illusions in BG2, so I guess even his judgement isn't flawless.

    gorgonzola
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 8,564
    Mazzy is firmly in the "Anyone can change, so unless I see you do evil, we are cool for now. But you WILL be be recieving my advice while we travel." camp.

    gorgonzolaArvia
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